Keep Leading!® Podcast 125 | Rebel Leadership | Larry Robertson

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of masterful facilitation, executive coaching, and professional speaking.

Obviously, here on the Keep Leading!® Podcast, it is all about leadership all the time and I’ve examined a lot of different areas of leadership and I’m always on the lookout for new areas that provide new insights for my listeners and myself. So, when I saw the book Rebel Leadership, my eyes got large. I said “This is a book I want to read and I want to talk to the person that wrote this book.” So, we’re going to talk about rebel leadership today and the author of the book Rebel Leadership: How to Thrive in Uncertain Times is Larry Robertson. Larry Robertson is an innovation advisor who works, writes and guides at the nexus of creativity, leadership, and entrepreneurship. And this book was released in June of 2021. So, essentially, it’s still hot off the press.

Larry, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Larry Robertson:

Eddie, thank you for that wonderful introduction and also the privilege of being with you.

Eddie Turner:

It’s an honor to have you. Tell us about yourself.

Larry Robertson:

Well, as you described, I call myself an innovation advisor. And what that really represents is my career has been about work at the nexus of three things – creativity, entrepreneurship, and leadership. And at different times, I’ve lived more or less in one of those zones but what I’ve found over time is that for any one of them to really reach their full potential and to be what we admire creativity, entrepreneurship and leadership to be, the three have to come together. So, my work is really about doing that. And as an innovation advisor, I cover the gamut from actually advising to researching what’s happening, how these different topic areas are evolving. And then I also have written three books, I write various columns and I speak. So, as you know from your work, all of those things come together and inform one another.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And this research aspect of your work, I find fascinating. In preparing for our conversation, it seems like you have literally interviewed hundreds of the top leaders to come up with your thesis for all three of your books.

Larry Robertson:

Yeah, I appreciate you calling that out. So, my research is very broad and it includes a lot of what in the business of research they would call secondary research, meaning I’m looking at things as detailed and sometimes as technical as scientific papers and studies that are being done. I’m looking at research that’s more business-like in the area of leadership or creativity or whatever it might be. And then, on top of that and really around it, you’re right, I have interviewed hundreds of the most creative innovative people on the planet, to be quite honest, and it’s been absolutely humbling but one of the main reasons for interviewing them is I want to hear what they have to say, not just what those who study them have to say, not what we might read in a top-level press heading or something like that, not even what I see with them in a consulting context. I want to know when they’re given the chance, and this is interesting, Eddie, they’re very rarely given this chance to speak to what they really think about topics like leadership and creativity to express where they themselves, these people who are kind of on the cutting edge, where they’re not sure what those things mean or what the best way is to get the most value out of them. So, I look to them to be the honesty check but most importantly, and this is really how all my work is oriented, I look at them to tell me what really works in actual practice because at the end of the day, it’s great to have a theory but if it doesn’t work in actual practice, it’s not worth a whole lot. And that’s really where these interviewees come in.

Eddie Turner:

That’s wonderful. And I like that so much because when you’re talking about operating at the nexus of creativity, leadership, entrepreneurship, oftentimes individuals may have a framework that they use that was passed down, maybe something that they’ve studied but as you said, it’s more than just having a view of what leadership is. It’s about talking to real leaders, understanding how they operate and why and unlocking that creative side because oftentimes we may not think of leadership as needing to have that creative component and for entrepreneurs, it’s even more important for that to exist. So, thank you for sharing that.

Larry Robertson:

You’re absolutely right. I want to amplify that. It’s interesting because you might not think about things that way with the work you do with your clients, I certainly think of these things as well as coming together but it’s amazing the number of people who, even if they know that creativity and leadership, for example, connect with one another and influence one another, we forget. We get so locked into the performance of the role of leader that we forget that really the job of a leader is to create an environment where everyone can lead and to create an environment that continues to adapt to the larger environment around us. In order to do that, you’ve got to be creative, you’ve got to be innovative, you have to be thinking outside what you know in this moment and how you do what you do in this moment.

Eddie Turner:

Your research has not just provided the foundation for three amazing books but your research has actually ended up leading to you being identified as a true scholar. Tell us about that.

Larry Robertson:

Well, boy, I’ll tell you, Eddie, it’s kind of a humbling honor to hear somebody use that word as you have and recently as the Fulbright Association has, I was named a Fulbright scholar in the spring of this year, in April …

Eddie Turner:

Congratulations.

Larry Robertson:

Thank you very much. And I’ll get to do some really exciting work in the spring of next year down in Costa Rica for a few months where we will be taking some of these concepts that I’ve developed but also some concepts a partner that I’m going to be working with there has developed and bringing them to audiences that wouldn’t otherwise be exposed to thinking about what allows you to release that creativity within you, what does leadership really mean, do you have to be at the top of an org chart, do you even have to be in an organization. All of these things we’re going to bring to rural largely indigenous communities that are often cut off from the economics of the country they’re in. So, it’s exciting to know that the things that I’m passionate about, the things that I’ve spent so much of my career on are still exciting to me and drive me to explore further. If that’s what we call scholarship, wanting to continue to be a lifelong learner in those areas and wanting to continue to connect with others, not just that I can teach what I know to but that I can learn from, then, yeah, I’m honored to be called a scholar.

Eddie Turner:

Simply phenomenal. I love hearing that. Now, all this led to three books as we said and the most recent is Rebel Leadership. I love that title.

Larry Robertson:

Thank you.

Eddie Turner:

What does it mean?

Larry Robertson:

Good question. So, I think it’s important, as I answer that question, to also share with your listeners the subtitle. It’s Rebel Leadership: How to Thrive in Uncertain Times. And really the driver for this book was, as you well know, there have been a lot of books written on leadership over the years, even just in the last couple of years. Very few of them are really focused on what does leadership look like in the context of a world that is volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. People often use that as an acronym, they call it VUCA. What is different about leadership not just in those moments where that volatility occurs but when that volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity are ongoing, they’re ever present around us. That’s the world we live in right now. The uncertainty we feel in this moment isn’t just COVID. For the last 20 years, this entire century to date, the world has become more uncertain with time and it’s affecting all of us. So, to think that we can lead as we once did is really misleading. We need to adapt to what the environment is like right now.

The similar thing is true for innovation. We can’t innovate in the ways that we did in the past if the landscape keeps changing on us or, as they say, if somebody keeps moving the gold posts. So, the book Rebel Leadership is really about two things. It’s about combining the best of what it means to be innovative and thinking ahead and open and willing to adapt, that’s the positive, rebel side and what it means to lead, which I said earlier is really creating that environment where the many can lead and not just the few. That’s one thing that it’s about.

The other thing, you said you were attracted to the title, is to catch people’s attention because the truly rebellious thing is to do that thing that, I think many, of us sense in these uncertain times are the right things to do, to do what your gut tells you to do even if your habit has told you something else. That’s what rebel leadership is all about.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. And I asked that because when people see that, they can read it one of two ways. You defined it beautifully. Some might look at it and we see our world is in utter chaos right now, conflict after conflict in every aspect of our society, but when you think about how you defined it, that of containing the best of innovation and adaptation with the best principles of leadership, yes, being a rebel and going against the grain and that’s where some of the best products have come from because of that. So, I loved how you’re applying this to the field of leadership and the scholarly research that you’ve put behind it.

Larry Robertson:

Thank you. And it’s resonating really well too, Eddie. In addition to people new to the term I’m putting out there, new to the subject matter I’m putting out there, there’s a growing list of organizations that not just recently but, again, over the last two decades have been leaning into these concepts, these patterns that exist across these organizations that I call rebel leadership. And to see those organizations thriving where many of us are struggling, to me, that puts a whole new lens on this uncertainty around us. Instead of it being the frightening thing it often feels, and it is frightening in some ways, it’s really this enormous opportunity to check in with why we lead, how we lead and is it leading us where we want to end up.

Eddie Turner:

Please give me an example of a rebel leader who we can look to, to follow.

Larry Robertson:

Yeah. And as I do that, if you don’t mind, I’m going to add four little but powerful letters to that. I’d love to give you an example of rebel leadership because our tendency is to put a big old equal sign between the words ‘leader’ and ‘leadership’ to think of the leader as somehow heroic, as the person who’s going to have the ability to solve every problem, think about every new idea, balance everything that needs to be balanced in increasingly diverse cultures or societies. And that simply isn’t true. In a way, it never has been true but because uncertainty and disruption came periodically and they had lots and nice periods of time in between of status quo and normalcy and even profitability in certain organizations, we were able to continue that myth that somehow the person at the top of the organization is heroic. So, I think of it in terms of leadership. And leadership is a capability and it’s one that every human being possesses. They may execute it in different ways. However, it doesn’t mean in some ways they lack the ability. It doesn’t mean that at all. If we just continue to define it as you’ve got to have the CEO title, then sure, it looks like only certain people can lead. So, to answer your question, one of the best examples of that in recent years is the leadership of Satya Nadella at Microsoft and I think he’s been there about seven years now at Microsoft. And Satya made a very bold move when he came in. He came into a profitable company, Microsoft has been profitable for a very long time, but what he saw was that what had made Microsoft profitable over the years was innovation and that innovation had quite literally died within the culture. They’d become a culture of protecting what they had already created. So, he wanted to open that back up. In addition to that, he realized that they’re a company that is global. So, we talk about diversity a lot in this country, especially, thank God, in the last few years and increasingly so but he was seeing diversity in his workforce of 1,30,000 people across the globe. And to him, he wanted to leverage the power of that humanity in total. How do you do that? what Satya Nadella did was he said “You know, I’ve heard about this concept out there called the growth mindset. I’ve heard about it as it applies to the individual. I practiced it myself. I want to make it cultural.” And he really did that inviting everybody in that culture upon his arrival to define what their shared purpose was, not to assume it but for everyone to have a contributing part in that, to have open conversations about what diversity and inclusion and equity meant to people individually, not just to groups or to the business itself and then to incorporate that kind of thought into the actual actions, the daily actions and decisions of every person in the organization across the globe. I would look at that as a wonderful example of rebel leadership. And what it tells us is not everybody’s trying to be, wants to be or should be Microsoft but these fundamental things underneath, these fundamental beliefs and a shared purpose in letting leadership move across an organization, in building culture, not waiting for it to be some kind of outcome but making it a competitive advantage, those are the kinds of things that distinguish rebel leadership.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Well, thank you, Larry.

I’m talking to Larry Robertson, author of Rebel Leadership: How to Thrive in Uncertain Times. We’ll have more with Larry right after this.

Eddie Turner:

We’re back, everyone. I’m talking to Larry Robertson. He’s the author of Rebel Leadership: How to Thrive in Uncertain Times.

Larry, I got to tell you when I think about uncertain times, I think about this global pandemic. Some folks use the phrase post-pandemic and when I use it, I don’t use it in the sense of the pandemic is over. It clearly is still raging on, unfortunately. So, when I’m going to ask you this question, I’m referring to post-pandemic in the sense of how our behavior has changed perhaps forever as a result of the pandemic. So, how does rebel leadership help us in a post-pandemic world?

Larry Robertson:

It’s a terrific question and I’m really glad you made the distinction you did. This idea which really often, I think, maybe we’re just leaning towards what we hope, this idea of the post-pandemic as defining the pandemic being over, it just isn’t true and we know it. We look around our neighborhoods, we look around our states, we look around the country, around the world, it’s just not over and it is going to, has already changed behavior ongoing. One of the key things about rebel leadership is that it really is about culture and culture in the sense of the things we do and are doing right now, not what we did, which know we could call pre-pandemic, not what we will do, even aspirational, but our words and our values and action in this moment. It’s kind of a litmus test – Are we living what it is we want to be or need to be to survive in this post-pandemic world? And to be that active, to be that fluid with changing times, culture has to be not a mandate from the top but this collective participatory thing where everybody in an organization is defining culture. When I spoke to Melissa Thomas Hunt who’s the head of global diversity and belonging at Airbnb, this is how she put it. She said “Culture comes from the way people behave, how they engage, what they give currency to, the markers of their language, what’s sanctioned and taboo.” And then she concluded saying “It’s all of this to the smallest parts and the smallest places.” That definition of culture is at the heart of rebel leadership. And if we were to look at what it is we need to do post-pandemic and we were to live in that way emphasizing that kind of culture and culture overall, that’s how leadership really helps us in this time of ongoing change.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. And is that what you would say is a thesis that runs through the center of your book?

Larry Robertson:

There’s no question. In fact, I think of culture and I refer to it in the chapter on culture as the hub. Everything else stems from that. Whether it’s things that are important at the individual level or at the group level, whether it’s things that are important in the media or over the long view, it absolutely is the heart.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you. Now, Larry, you have so much experience and you have these other two books that I wish I could dive into each of those. For those who are not familiar with your work, please tell us the name of the other two books. And we know Rebel Leadership is the latest book but if someone wanted to start with one, which one would it be?

Larry Robertson:

Oh boy, that’s a great question. So, I will tell you quickly what the other two books are and then I’ll answer that which to start with. So, the first book was focused on entrepreneurship and the name of the book is A Deliberate Pause: Entrepreneurship and its Moment in Human Progress. The second book was about creativity and the name of that book is The Language of Man: Learning to Speak Creativity. What will be interesting to your audiences about both of those books is that if you think about it, things terms ‘entrepreneurship’ and ‘creativity’, even ‘leadership’, we use a lot but rarely slow down to think about their meaning. And the first two books are about a conscious decision, a pause to look at entrepreneurship, to look at creativity and to distill it to its most common elements – when it works, when it creates the value that we associate with both of those things, when it has lasting impact, no matter where that happens, what are the common elements that define entrepreneurship and creativity. That’s really what those two books are about. They take that step back and they look at how do we arrive at an explanation of creativity but also a path forward that every one of us can use. I believe Rebel Leadership does the same with the topic of leadership but just specifically within this time of great change.

And if I had to say which should you start with, I’m going to say Rebel Leadership for a couple of reasons. One, we are all going through this time of incredible uncertainty and we all need to step up to leadership in our own way in our lives, in our work, in our societies and beyond. I think that makes it important. Second, it’s a short book and it’s meant to be short and portable and something you can almost carry with you as a guide. So, it’s handy in that way. And third, it’s pretty engaging. I wrote it to not only share data and trends and steps you can take and things of that nature. There’s some great stories in it and they come directly from the people I interviewed.

So, if I had to start with one, I’d start there but if you have this absolute passion for creativity or entrepreneurship, I’ve got the other two for you.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And you have given us a reason to really look at our definition of leadership and how we exercise it in a whole new way. Any final words you would say on the reason it is important to examine our view of leadership?

Larry Robertson:

Yes, and it amplifies what we talked about earlier. Accept that we live in a new abnormal. Accept that the ability to adapt ongoing, not just in a problem-solving way, not just in a moment, is critical to everyone and take whatever step works for you forward to embrace that world and learn how to be adaptable and a leader in your own right.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed talking to you, Larry. Where can my listeners learn more about you?

Larry Robertson:

Eddie, I’ve enjoyed this too. And the best place to learn about me is at my website. It begins with my initials LR, it’s LRSpeaks.com and at LR Speaks, you can learn about each of my books, the columns I write for a range of publications and about what I do in general, my advisory work, my speaking and so on. LRSpeaks.com.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. We’re going to put that in the show notes to make sure that everyone can follow you, connect with you and continue to learn more about you and your fascinating research that you’re doing. And after you’re done with the project there in Costa Rica, he scholarly research, we’ll have to get you back on again to tell us all the new empirical evidence you’ve uncovered.

Larry Robertson:

I would love that and I’ll look forward to it, Eddie. Thanks again. I look forward to it.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, Larry.

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I am Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Larry and I talked about that a little bit, didn’t we? Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.