Keep Leading!® Podcast 138 | Scott Walker | Order Out of Chaos

Hello, everyone. All Welcome to another edition of Keep Leading® LIVE. Keep Leading® LIVE is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I am your host, Eddie Turner. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speaking.My guest and I are streaming to you live today on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. So, if you’re joining us on one of these platforms, please type in the comments to let us know you’re here, ask any question you’d like to ask or just give us your feedback, let us know your reaction to what you are hearing. And if you’d be so kind, press that share button and share it with your network so that they can join us live or they can catch the replay afterwards.

Today, I’m going to talk about a subject that is in the news but also is something I consider a life skill and that is negotiation but we’re going to cover from a different perspective. My guest today is Scott Walker. Scott Walker is one of the world’s most experienced kidnap for ransom negotiators. He’s a former Scotland Yard detective engaged in covert counterterrorist and kidnapping operations. He supports organizations governments and private individuals worldwide in negotiating the release of hostages. Scott is a sought-after speaker who coaches executives and leaders at all levels enhancing their resilience, developing their emotional intelligence, and perfecting their communication skills. Scott Walker joins me here on Keep Leading® LIVE to share his new approach to succeeding negotiations when failure is not an option and Scott does this in his new book that was just released Tuesday, Order Out of Chaos – Win Every Negotiation Thrive in Adversity and Become a World-Class Communicator. You can get your copy on Amazon or on his website. I’ve got my copy on the desk behind me, as you’ll notice.

Scott, welcome to Keep Leading® LIVE.

Hi, Eddie. Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

I am just so excited to have you. I’ve been enjoying your book. And a lot of times people will say “You had me at the word ‘go’” and in your case, this is really true. I started in the introduction which sometimes I might skip but I was just locked in. What a fascinating book, but before we get into the book, please tell our audience today a little bit more about you, anything I may have missed.

Well, that was such a great introduction there. I’m not quite sure where to go with that. I think throughout all of my life, I’ve been really curious and interested in what makes people tick, what makes them think, feel, and act the way they do. Even as a kid, I was really nosy, really inquisitive and that probably meant why I went into the police service growing up because I was curious as to why people did what they did. And then, obviously, I made a career out of it. 20 plus or so years later, I’m still doing it, and this time I think it’s ended up in the point where it’s allowed me to help other people simply have better conversations. And if you could sum up all of what the book is about, it really is about how we can have better conversations with each other.

Indeed. And when I initially picked it up, that’s not what I was anticipating, but as I was reading it, I said “Wow! This really is a practical daily guide” and I’m going to ask you a little bit about that but I got to ask you this first. And maybe it’s just me but when I hear Scotland Yard, I think Sherlock Holmes. So, for those of us who may not know Scotland Yard and the significance of what you did there, just tell us just a little bit about that.

Well, actually, you mentioned Sherlock Holmes there and that’s a really good example of what a good negotiator is. And I’ll come back to that in a second, but Scotland Yard is really just the headquarters of the Metropolitan Police in London. And the day-to-day policing is spread out across London and there’s various units and departments just like any other major city police force. It’s got its SWAT teams, it’s got its homicide teams as well as organized crime as well as the mounted branch on horses, etc. So, that’s what the Yard is but it has developed a bit of a reputation for itself over many, many decades in movies. Another thing you mentioned there about Sherlock Holmes. Actually, I always advise clients to be more Sherlock Holmes than Gordon Gecko a negotiation because you’ve got to be curious, you’ve got to be hungry for the truth, you’ve got to be inquisitive, you’ve got to have that persistence to really find out what’s going on for the other side as opposed to playing hard ball or thinking …

That’s an interesting perspective, you said instead of just playing hard ball, because when many people think about a negotiation, Scott, that’s what I hear people say “Win at all cost. Take no prisoners. It’s only a victory if I get everything I want.” So, you’re saying there’s a different definition of negotiation that people should have.

People think, and there’s lots of negotiation training and books out there, who say you’ve got to separate the person from the problem. It’s just a trade of resources or money but they’re missing the biggest aspect of all of this is that we’re all human beings and human beings are driven by emotion. The emotions we experience drive all our decision-making and our behavior. Even if we think we’re rational creatures, we only do that after the event. And so, often if we fail to address the person, the emotions that are underlying and lie behind the needs and the drivers for that particular deal, we’re going to miss a trick here. And really what I stress to people is every negotiation that you enter, no matter what it is with your family, in business, or in the community, wherever it is, seek that cooperation and collaboration. Have in mind that you want to bring about a client for life, not a onetime hard ball negotiation. Yeah, okay, if you’re going to buy a car, it’s a one-off transaction, that’s slightly different, but for most people, particularly in business, you want to get clients who come back to you time and time and time again but you’re only going to be able to do that if you can identify and satisfy those emotional needs.

Interesting. And the idea that you want a client for life … there are some one-time transactions as you mentioned, maybe purchasing a new vehicle or something of that effect, but in a business perspective, we don’t want to have that mentality. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And you also bring this home to something that you say very early on in the book is the idea that we are always negotiating and we’re negotiating even when we think we’re not negotiating. And in fact, when you shared some of the tools, I want to read this part directly, if I may, from your book because I found this fascinating, you said “Successfully resolving a kidnapping negotiation with ease requires the same skills used in any stressful conversation.” And you talk about the fact that this involves even everyday events. And so, I got to thinking is it just as simple as planning the family vacation, is it as simple as the daily conversation with my three-year-old who I call a threenager, or the boss who we have where we have that negotiation conversation coming up about our pay raise or our promotion. You said it’s the same skills.

Absolutely. And it’s about realizing that a negotiation is simply a conversation with the purpose. You talk to a lot of people and they get very nervous or they get scared or they want to avoid anything that involves negotiation but actually, it’s a straightforward conversation where you want to get something from it, the other side wants to get something from it. And if you approach it in the right way, whether or not it’s a family vacation or whether or not it’s a multibillion merge and acquisition deal or it’s the release of hostages, both sides have to feel as if they’re getting a good deal as much as possible from that. And so, if you can approach in that way, it becomes a lot easier. And it applies to every aspect of our life because what are we doing day in day out if we’re not looking to influence or persuade or bring about some form of cooperation or collaboration whether or not it’s your three-year-old or it’s with a board of directors. The same principles apply there.

Interesting. Well, then I’ll have to keep working so I can get better at both. Now, I’m going to just turn the page, if I may, a little bit to a more serious aspect of negotiation, when I open up the paper, we open up the front cover of our newspapers, we look at what’s happening in the world around us, Scott, and with your worldwide experience negotiating in high stakes situations, one of the most notable occurrences that comes to mind is the unfortunate circumstances of the hundreds of Israeli hostages who are in many cases still held hostage or someone like an Evan Gershkovich, The Wall Street Journal journalist, who’s been held hostage I believe for about a year now, when we think about circumstances like this and you get called in, what’s your first line of thought, even though you’re not in these situations, what’s your line of thought that you use that can give us a lens into the type of thinking that you’re having to bring?

Sure. Well, Evans’s case, the Wall Street journalist, that’s a state-sponsored or it’s state detention where a foreign government will detain usually a journalist or an aid worker on charges, usually spurious, against their will. And so, that then becomes the diplomatic back and forth between the two governments involved. It’s frustrating for the families because it gets tied up in the bureaucracy and at the government level and these things take time, takes a long time, but we’ve seen around the world an increase in those kinds of abductions or detentions, I should say. So, there’s that aspect. In terms of the old Israel-Hamas situation right now, as far as hostage negotiation perspective, it doesn’t get much more challenging when you think about it. Even just trying to secure the release of one hostage is difficult enough, but when you’ve got a hundred plus who’ve been held for a long time in an active war zone, in an environment and in a backdrop that is very sensitive, is very volatile, it presents its own unique challenges. And countries like Qatar have gotten involved third-party intermediaries. And we see this in negotiations all the time, not just in this one where a trusted party will get involved, act as the mediator, as the facilitator between everyone involved. And that goes to the heart of the success factor in all negotiations and that is trust. And without it, negotiations fail, whether it’s with your kids or whether not it’s with terrorists or whomever. And so, in this particular case, the Qataris have established trust with these raiders and the Americans and Hamas and others on the other side and they’ve been able to leverage that to get to a deal where we are now, but the principles still apply, is these things can take a long time, highly emotive, highly challenging but above all, that trust is a success factor to the succeeding in the end.

Yeah. One of the reasons I ask you about this mindset we have to bring because you’re negotiating with someone who you can’t trust or in a case where it’s a situation where maybe it’s not a person you just can’t trust, maybe like an employer or something or the other side of an acquisition and M&A, but it’s just that maybe it’s a difficult person or it’s a difficult organization, a difficult transaction. What has a person to do in those circumstances?

Well, let’s bring this to the everyday scenario, the everyday situation now, whether it’s in business or in people’s personal lives. I think it’s fair to say, Eddie, that you, and I’m sure people watching and listening to this have come across those difficult people, whether not you want to label them as narcissists or sociopaths or just being a bit difficult, they’re part and parcel of doing business. And so, what I always advise people is you need to reframe your thinking, see them more as worthy opponents as opposed to some kind of adversary that you’ve got to beat, because if you go up against these people in a fight, you’re likely to not come off that well because, for them, it’s all driven by ego, it’s all about them and they will do whatever they can to actually win at all cost. So, if you can approach them as a worthy opponent, what that means is you can suspend your own ego, you can actually see this as is an opportunity for you to get curious, to manage and regulate your own emotions and really ask yourself “Okay. Well, what is driving this person? What are the needs here?” And usually, it will be things like they’re looking for certainty, significance, to save face but above all, control. And actually, if you can still bring about a really good outcome here, you can give them all of that, you can give them the semblance of being in control, you can frame the options to them as if it’s their idea, you can do all these things that can make them think as if they’re winning while actually you’re both going to succeed here, but I think what I’d say there is avoid this locking horns and seeing this as a battle because you won’t win.

You’re telling us not to look at them as an adversary but to look at them as a worthy opponent. And then you talked about the need to look at what’s in it for them, what are their feelings. And so, I hear you talking about what you mentioned a lot in your book and that’s this need to introduce the word of empathy into negotiations. And that’s just not what a lot of people would think about when they think about negotiations.

And particularly when you’re facing conflict, and conflict is part and parcel of negotiation, I have to say, in every kidnapping or extortion negotiation, there’s been conflict in every single one. So, again, I’d always advise people accept it’s going to be there, embrace it, and empathy is a way of diffusing that. And empathy, people misunderstand what it is. It’s not sympathy. It’s not pity. It’s not even compassion. Empathy is a doing word. You do empathy which then enables the person on the other side, your counterpart, to start to feel that rapport and that actually they’re seen, heard, and understood. And this is particularly powerful if you disagree with them. If you’re at loggerheads, if you’re disagreeing over a particular aspect of a deal, if I can empathize, if I can validate, if I can put myself in that position and crucially articulated to them and they go “Hey, yeah, Scott really gets me” or “Yeah, Eddie understands where I’m coming from here,” even if you disagree, then you’re just opening the playing field then for you to have earned the right and the trust, you’ve earned the right to then start to influence and persuade them and put across your side.

So, even if we don’t agree, I need to make sure they feel seen, heard, and understood.

Particularly if you disagree with them, that’s even more powerful. It’s harder to do because you may be triggered in it, your ego would be there, that negative loop would be going around inside your head, that chatter. You got to suspend that because otherwise it’s …

I got to stop telling myself all these crazy stories about the other side.

Exactly.

Oh no!

I’m good. They’re bad. I’m going to do what I can to prove I’m right, they’re wrong. And in the end, you both walk away with either no deal or a lousy deal and then you feel really bad afterwards and it doesn’t serve anybody.

And that’s interesting because you call the book Order Out of Chaos. So, by that title, I wasn’t expecting all the deep negotiation and communication skills that you’re teaching. So, tell us about that specific title and how that factors into what you’re teaching.

Well, it doesn’t actually have anything to do with Chaos Theory, as somebody mentioned to me the other day. It’s really a job description of my role as a negotiator has been to (inaudible). It could be in the family home. It could be in the boardroom somewhere. And there’s inevitably some kind of chaos. There’s uncertainty. There’s challenge. There’s change. There’s a crisis going on. And, actually, it’s to bring some semblance of order and calm. And so, when you’re at the center of that storm raging all around you, you can operate, you can negotiate, you can communicate from a place of equinity, of calm, of groundedness. And from that place, you can go “You know what, nothing is going to phase me now.” And it’s contagious because if I turned up and sat down with a family of the hostages or in the company boardroom where one of their colleagues had been taken and I was getting all flustered and I was contributing to the chaos, they’ll be like “You’re good to us here.” So, I very much saw as my role, one of my primary roles, was to bring that order to what is a very chaotic and uncertain situation.

Interesting, interesting. That’s really good to know and to think about. And in your book you actually share what you call a Jedi mind trick, something very specific that we can use when it comes to negotiation. Do you mind sharing it with our listeners here?

I’m just trying to think what that is, if you can give me a hint on it, because there a couple of mind tricks in there.

Anyone that you want to share.

I think, it’s really about if you can validate where the person is at through the empathy, through the summarizing and labeling, that is really powerful. If we’re disagreeing, Eddie, on a business deal right now and I can go “Eddie, let’s just pause for a second. Is it okay if I just share with you where I think you’re at right now with this?” and then I go “Well, you know, to me it sounds like you think I’m maybe even trying to rip you off here, that you’re not getting the best deal. I’ve had long enough to put up a better counteroffer here and you feel that even I might be dragging this out to try and get more money out of this.” And straight away, by doing that, it diffuses the tension, it makes you feel seen, heard, and understood, but all I’m doing is I’m just reflecting back to you where I think you’re at. And it sounds so simple but it is really, really effective to do that. It’s simple but not easy because people want to go “Yes but” and they want to put their spin and they want to rationalize as to why they should have their viewpoint, but the golden rule of this is it’s not about you. You’ve got to first seek to understand before being understood. And if you can do that, as I said earlier, you’ve earned the right, you’ve earned the trust to then start influencing them persuading the other side. So, really, what I would suggest is it is about if you can reflect back, if you can paraphrase or summarize and label what you’re sensing is going on through the person, it’s really, really powerful.

I like that and that is something in your book that you call the golden rule, I believe, in negotiations in that you first seek to be understand before being understood. Yes, yes, yes, excellent. And I like what you’re describing here, as a coach that really resonates because that’s one of the things that I try to do as a coach but also as a person who works as a coach trainer, we teach coaches, is to call out what you’re seeing in the moment, highlight what you’re hearing and get on the same page with the person in terms of what they’re understanding, try to understand what they’re saying. That doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing. So, thank you for sharing that as one of the techniques that we can use in the middle of a negotiation real time. And I think that also gets back to what you were talking about earlier about bringing that empathy in because you can’t do that effectively unless you’re empathizing in that moment and also reframing the stories that we’re telling the person ourselves about the person that we’re negotiating with.You’ve given us several tips. You’ve told us what it means and what the mindset of a negotiator should be. Is there one mistake that you see people make over and over when they are negotiating?

Some of the common mistakes, blocks, barriers will be where you’re making it about you, it’s about “What can I get from this deal at the expense of somebody else?” It’s potentially looking to problem solve too soon. And we learned about this really and practiced this in the hostage world where if somebody’s there on the ledge or holding a hostage and, say in the first 30 seconds of the first call “Okay, if you put the gun down, turn to your left, walk out the door down the steps and we’ll meet you there,” they’re going to go “What are you talking about?” because you haven’t addressed, as I said in the beginning, around the whole emotional aspect that’s driving this. Those human beliefs, the values, the rules, the emotions, the needs need to be met first.

So, don’t jump in trying to problem solve too quickly when it comes to negotiations.

Absolutely. So, take your time, understand and identify the needs driving the other side. Don’t look to problem solve. Don’t look to try and offer advice when it’s not wanted as well particularly in relationships. And it’s when people allow their emotions to get the better of them. Again, one of the number one skills of the top negotiators in the world is being able to emotionally self-regulate, to have that antenna, that sensory acuity that when you walk into a room or you’re going to pick up the call in a high-stakes situation, you’re pretty cool, calm, and collected and you can kind of convey that and tune in with what other people are experiencing as well and then do what you can to allay their concerns and fears and to bring them down if you need to.

Before I read your book, I did not make that connection that you just made, the connection between emotional intelligence and negotiating, because you must have this element of self-regulation down, you must have mastered it because in a situation, this is where, from what I understand, your reputation has become known when a situation, everything’s hot and volatile and emotions are high, you come in cool as a cucumber and you’re able to maintain that calmness and bring calm to the storm, calm to the chaos so that you can effectively negotiate. So, I appreciate that connection that you’re making with that.

It’s fundamental to it, Eddie. Without that emotional intelligence, you will not succeed long term in any negotiation.

Indeed. Now, in a world where we have not just people but also cyber security is becoming a huge issue, and I was not aware of this how big of an issue this was until some time ago when I was working at the C-level with leaders, and I started to understand how many times this happens and it can’t even be talked about that organizations are hit with this. So, be it data, in terms of cybersecurity, be it people, there’s a need for all of us in business, all of us in our daily lives, as you have highlighted so clearly to really listen to this message that you bring out and that you share in your book.

In the cyber world with cyber extortion as well, the similar principles apply there but, again, the weakest link in any chain would be the human being but also the strongest link will also be the human being. I know I’m repeating myself a lot here but we’ve got to understand about what makes us tick. What makes us think, feel, and act the way we do particularly as part of human nature particularly when we’re under stress because those emotions make clever people do stupid things. And we’ve seen that many, many times when people have clicked on the email with a dodgy attachment and all of a sudden, they’ve been hit by a ransomware attack, for example.

Well, good information for us to consider. Again, the book is Order Out of Chaos – Win Every Negotiation, Thrive in Adversity and Become A World-Class Communicator.Scott, what is the biggest message you want everyone who’s listening to us today to walk away from our conversation knowing?

If you want to be able to influence anyone, you must first know what already influences them. And the way you do that is by bringing more curiosity than assumption to the table.

Bring more curiosity than assumption to the table. Excellent. And where can my listeners learn more about you, Scott?

Well, obviously on LinkedIn. I’m active on there on a daily basis. And people can also head to the website ScottWalkerBooks.co.uk where, again, I post things on there and they can find out about some workshops and other information about the world of negotiation, how I can best support them.

Excellent. So, I’m going to encourage all my listeners to follow you, Scott, connect with you on LinkedIn and visit that website ScottWalkerBooks.co.uk. Excellent.Thank you for being a guest on Keep Leading® LIVE.

Thanks for having me.

And thank you for listening, for tuning in to our discussion today. I’m Eddie Turner, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all that we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.