Keep Leading!® Podcast 124 | Mentorship vs. Management | Clint Pulver

Eddie Turner:

All right, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading LIVE™ stream. This is the video version of the Keep Leading!® Podcast. Like the Keep Leading!® Podcast, Keep Leading LIVE™ is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and motivational speaking.

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In the world of Leadership Development, we often talk about the difference between leadership and management. Well, there’s a reason for that. It’s a long conversation about which one is more important and which one is more necessary to organizations. My guest today says we should actually be having a different conversation when it comes to Leadership and this age-old debate. My guest today says that our conversation should be about mentorship versus management. So, we’re going to talk about mentorship versus management with my guest today who is one of the leading authorities on workplace development and employee retention.

My guest today is Clint Pulver. And I’ll bring Clint in now so you can see who he is and what we’re going to be talking about. Clint, is a professional keynote speaker.

Hey, Clint.

Clint is a professional keynote speaker and he’s an author, a musician, a pilot in addition to being a workforce expert and he’s known as being the leading authority on employee retention because of the organizations he’s transformed, big brands that he’s worked with and he’s known as the Undercover Millennial. So, we’ll talk about that with Clint. Clint is also an Emmy Award winner for his short film Mr. Jensen. We got a lot to talk about as we unpack this topic.

So, Clint, welcome to Keep Leading LIVE™.

Clint Pulver:

Thank you, Eddie. I’m honored to be here. I appreciate you throwing this on and inviting me to be on the show, means a lot.

Eddie Turner:

It’s a matter to have you. And, Clint, I got to tell you I’ve done less live shows this year because of just different things going on. First guest I did this year was Alex Fasulo. She talked about how we can earn six figures on Fiverr because she’s made over a million dollars on Fiverr. The next guest I had was the amazing Dorie Clark. So, now you’re following the two big shoes there, Clint.

Clint Pulver:

Very big shoes. We’re scraping the bottom of the barrel now having me on the show.

Eddie Turner:

Not hardly, not early but just great folks to talk to you live. And so, tell our listeners a little bit more about you and your amazing background.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah. So, the last four and a half years I have worked as the Undercover Millennial. It’s kind of like undercover boss without the makeup. I would go undercover into organizations as a millennial. I’m a millennial by age. And I would walk into a retail store or a hospitality chain or a food and beverage outlet and I would just go up to the first person that I saw and I’d wear a backwards hat, I had a hoodie on, I was just a normal customer, and I’d walk up to the first person and I would say “Hey, I’m just curious what’s it like to work here. I’m just thinking about applying.” And the employee would get all quiet. They’d look around. It felt like an illegal drug exchange. And then they would tell me everything, everything, from the good to the bad, what they loved, what they hated, if they would recommend it, if they wouldn’t. And I have done that for an extensive amount of time now. We’ve worked with 181 organizations and undercover I have interviewed over 10,000 employees.

Eddie Turner:

Wow!

Clint Pulver:

And the uniqueness about it is it was real, it was authentic. It wasn’t done through a survey. It wasn’t some one-on-one management meeting where they collected data on what their employees wanted from them. I created an environment simply based off of my age where employees could speak the truth. They didn’t know they were speaking their truth but that’s how we got the honesty. And in doing, so we’ve created some real and authentic data. And the magic, Eddie, behind how all of this worked was not when an employee was dissatisfied with their job. That wasn’t the cool part. The magic was when I would walk up to an employee and say “Hey, I’m just thinking about applying. What’s it like to work here?” and the employee would respond with “I love it here. I love my job. I love what we do. You know you got to meet my manager, Susie. Oh, Susie’s the best. You should meet our other teammates.” And then I’d go and meet the other teammates and they would have the same response. And that would trend in an organization and to figure out why, what were those great leaders doing to create organizations that their people never wanted to leave. And we decided to write a book about it and I titled it I Love It Here and it is based off of the research that I’ve conducted as the Undercover Millennial and how great leaders can replicate that and create loyalty that lasts, influence that means something and higher retention rates, create a workplace where people don’t just survive at work but they actually thrive.

Eddie Turner:

I Love It Here. What a great title for a book.

Clint Pulver:

That’s why we titled it that because that was the number one phrase that employees would say. Now, it didn’t happen as much as I wish it would have happened but when it did happen, it was that response “I love it.”

Eddie Turner:

That’s what I was going to ask you. What was the percentage, as you were working as the Undercover Millennial, of people … as you said, it was almost like a drug deal, asking them “Let me tell you the truth” as long as somebody’s looking, what was the percentage of folks who when they gave you the unfettered truth really did love it here versus “Oh boy, let me tell you.”

Clint Pulver:

Yeah. So, out of the 10,000 employees that we have interviewed, only 30% said they loved their job.

Eddie Turner:

Wow!

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, unfortunately. So, yeah, we need more of it. Think about it, and we’re coming into a weird time in quarter three and quarter four of 2021 where a lot of people are reconsidering their places of work, there’s going to be a mass exodus, there’s going to be a drove of people to be happening, because the job that they work in now, for most companies and most jobs, it doesn’t look the same as it did in 2019. And we’ve done research during COVID-19 and it’s been really interesting to see because employees have really talked about two things as we’re coming out of the pandemic. Number one, they remember how they were treated during the chaos. And I saw some pretty horrific things that leaders did, Eddie, during a time of turmoil. I also saw some beautiful things that leaders did in a time of hardship but nonetheless, they remember. And as we’re coming out of this, they look back on the last year and a half and decide “Okay, is this really where I want to be?” And number two, they’ve all had time to think. Employees have had time to think “Does my job today look the same as it did in 2019?” A lot of people are taking on twice the workload. They’re getting cut on their pay. They’re realizing “Oh my gosh, I can live in Colorado and work in New York City and make twice as much and save twice on rent.” And so, the market is changing. And I’m hearing it constantly from leaders and executives, HR directors, managers, they’re having a hard time hiring people. They’re having a hard time finding people. They’re having a hard time competing. And so, now more than ever, we need good leaders to create environments where people have a lifestyle, they feel connected, they feel seen, they feel heard, they feel understood but they also feel like somebody’s with them. if we don’t compete in that marketplace right now, you will find it very difficult to keep, retain, and recruit good employees.

Eddie Turner:

Very well said, Clint. And I have to tell you that I’m tracking with you. I was on an interview the other day and I was talking about this very thing. Every day in the Wall Street Journal I’m seeing articles about how difficult employers are finding to find employees today. And people are saying “Well, it’s because of this reason and that reason,” pointing to factors, I think, may be true but in some ways, it may be artificial. I’ve said it boils down to one word, what you just described – values. Either they saw how the company treated them and they didn’t live up to the espoused values they claimed to have held or they reevaluated their own values and some just decided “I really don’t like working here. I’ve worked all this time. It’s been a job and I don’t want a job anymore. I want a career. I want to do something different that involves greater fulfillment and my family life.” And so, a lot more dynamics at play but your research is rooted in finding that. So, it’s good to hear that coming from you.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah. Well, thank you. One thing I have learned for sure, Eddie, in that research is that every employee is asking the question “Let me know when it gets to the part about me.”

Eddie Turner:

Yes.

Clint Pulver:

Sometimes employers and executives or managers, they hear that and they go “Well, those entitled little shining stars in my life,” right? “Let me know when it gets to the part about me,” if I hear that one more time, I’m going to hurl but I don’t think it’s so much about entitlement as it is about good business. It’s about bringing humanity back into the workplace, understanding that we can’t look at the employee as … I see this mentality, they look at them like a fireplace. It’s like “Give me heat. Then I’ll give you wood. Give me the results. Give me the productivity. Do your job. Then we’ll talk about your lifestyle. Then we’ll talk about your stresses at home. Then we’ll talk about your need for more money.” And I think if we flip that script and, like you mentioned, we stay true to the values, we create the deposits of trust, we create that track record where people go “You know, I like myself best because I’m here.” We have to think as employers how do people experience you and how do they experience themselves when they’re with you. And it’s a constant ebb and flow. It’s a constant check of where we need to be but it’s worth thinking about because we’re in a time right now where, I would say, a good chunk, in my research, 60% of employees that we interviewed were already on the fence looking for another job at the time I interviewed them that if somebody would have offered them a little more money, a little more respect, a little more appreciation, they would have bounced in a heartbeat.

Eddie Turner:

So, if only 30% of people love it here, as the title of the book says, 60% are looking for a job, the other 10% is just saying “I’m just going to stay out of resignation.”

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, seriously. Again, it’s worth considering. Unless you’re okay with being a solo entrepreneur, you’re okay with the revolving door of turnover which is costing your company thousands of dollars, it’s worth thinking about. And it’s been fun to see how great leaders have done that and continue to do that very well.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Now, you offer solutions that organizations who are faced with this can implement. Which one solution, those listening, can start on today?

Clint Pulver:

I think it’s being the company and being the leader that people want to connect with. When an employee hated their job, they talked about the manager. When an employee loved their job, they talked about a mentor. Now, not specifically leadership, okay? You mentioned this before we started, Eddie. You’ve got leadership and management. Those are the two categories that we often speak about when we talk about corporate America and working with employees and retention and influence but there’s this middle ground that I found that was very powerful because leadership, traditional leadership is about having a position and you are the visionary, you’re at the helm of the ship and you’re telling everybody where to go and “This is where we need to go and this is the reason why. I got to get you from point A to point B to point C” and you’re a leader if you can get everybody to follow you. You’re the direction. You are the visionary. Management is all about making sure that there’s no holes in the ship, making sure we’re efficient, we’re effective, we can get there quicker and faster, stay productive but the mentors, they were about taking care of people on the ship. You had to earn the right to be called a mentor. We give leadership titles out all the time – “You’re the HR director,” You’re the manager,” “You’re the leader,” “You’re the CEO,” “You’re the administrator” – but mentorship had to be earned. You cannot become a mentor until the mentee invites you into their heart. And every great story has that. And it was really the number one determining factor. When I would go into an organization and I would say “What’s it like to work here? Would you recommend it,” they’d say “Yeah, I love it here. We love Susie.” – “WHO’S Susie?” I go to the next employee and they’d say “Oh, Susie came from another tech company. She came over here and I followed Susie over.” Why? Susie became a mentor because of five C’s. And we found a leader that had this influence, a leader that had earned the calling of mentorship, they had five C’s. And I think it’s worth thinking about right now as an employer. It’s worth taking inventory. It’s worth maybe asking your employees if they view their managers in this light.

The first C is Confidence. I want to mentor with someone who has confidence, confidence in themselves but confident in their ability that they can help get me to where I want to go. Great mentors have the ability to connect people to their dreams. So, you need to be confident in the ability to do that.

The second factor, the second C is Credibility – “What’s your background? What’s your history? What’s your résumé? You might be the sales manager of the car dealership but have you ever sold a car before? I want to know your history.” Credibility matters.

The third C was Competence. A manager that was actually a practitioner, not a theorist … there’s a lot of leaders, there’s a lot of managers, they sit in the back office, they bark orders, they manage the schedule, they tell everybody what to do. That’s not building a mentorship mentality. That’s not proving to your employees that you live and breathe and eat and sleep and drink the thing that you’re trying to teach them on how to perform, on what to do and how to get them to where they want to go.

The fourth C was Candor. They had the ability to create relationships so strong that honesty could exist. I want to mentor with somebody that’s going to give it to me straight. If I’m doing a good job, they’re honestly going to tell me. If I’m struggling at a few things, they’re honestly going to tell me but they’ve made those deposits of trust which has allowed them to make those withdrawals, we can have candid conversations.

And the fifth C is the ability to Care.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. So, mentorship must be earned. I love that. And you have given us Five C’s that are the way a mentor can earn that. Give us those, just summarize them by name one more time.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah. So, you’ve got to have Competence, you’ve got to have Confidence, you’ve got to have Credibility, you’ve got to have Candor, and the ability to Care.

Eddie Turner:

And the ability to care. We need a more caring world today, especially post pandemic.

Clint Pulver:

Absolutely. And we need advocates, not just developers. There’s a lot of good managers that are all about developing a person.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, advocacy.

Eddie Turner:

Advocates that can help develop us. You happen to have someone who is your advocate that helped develop you, Clint. And if I’m not mistaken, that’s how you earned your Emmy. Tell us about that.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, I was the kid, Eddie, when I was in school, I struggled to hold still. I still have a hard time sitting still. I would just move all the time. I would constantly tap, my right hand would tap, my left hand would tap. And, obviously, if you’re sitting in a room and someone’s clicking a pen or they’re tapping their foot, you’re like “I swear if you do it one more time, something’s going to blow up.” I got nicknamed. I got teased. They called me the twitcher, the tapper. Even the teachers would constantly yell at me “Young man, I need you to sit still. Young man, sit on your hands. Stop tapping.”

Eddie Turner:

Wow!

Clint Pulver:

And it happened again and again and again until one day there was a teacher and his name was Mr. Jensen and he looked at me as I was tapping in class and he said “Young man, in the back.” He said “I need to speak to you. We’re going to have a conversation.” And I’m thinking in my mind like “I’m getting kicked out of school as a 10-year-old.” And all the other kids are like “Oh, you are in so much trouble.” The bell rings, clash dismissed, everybody leaves, it’s a completely empty room minus Mr. Jensen and me. And he calls me to the back, sits me down and he says “Listen,” he said “Clint, you’re kind of a kid that’s on the list. You’re kind of the problem kid. And you tap. You tap in my class and you tap in everybody else’s. I know you get teased. You get bullied.” He said “I’ve watched you though.” And I sit back and it’s crazy, he said “You’ll take a pen and you’ll start writing with your right hand and then you’ll tap with your left hand.” He said “And then all of a sudden, you’ll switch the pen and you’ll start writing with your left hand and you’ll tap with your right hand.” And he looked at me and he said “I think you’re ambidextrous.” And I was like “No, I’m Presbyterian.” He said “No, no, no, no, that’s not what it means.” He said “Can you tap your head and rub your belly at the same time?” And I said “Yeah, I could do it very well.” And he said “Can you switch it? Can you rub your head and then tap your belly?” And, Eddie, back and forth without thinking about it, I can do it. And Mr. Jensen sat back in his chair and he looked at me and he said “I don’t think you’re a problem. I just think you’re a drummer.” And another thing that I’ve learned Eddie is in life we don’t really remember days, we remember moments. Great leaders have the ability to create moments in the lives of people where they do like themselves best because they’re with them or a moment that represents possibility and potential and worth. Moments matter. That’s what they talk about. And in this moment, Mr. Jensen, the old teacher, he leaned back in his desk and he opened up the top drawer and he reached inside and he took out my very first pair of drumsticks.

Eddie Turner:

How about that.

Clint Pulver:

My very first pair. And it changed my life.

Eddie Turner:

He changed your life because he saw in you what other people didn’t see.

Clint Pulver:

Absolutely. And he took what everybody deemed a problem and he turned it into an opportunity.

Eddie Turner:

So, I want everyone who’s listening to our episodes really think about that, Clint. How many times has it happened to you viewer who’s tuned in with us right now where someone deemed you with a negative word or a phrase because they couldn’t see into you or I and we all have that Mr. Jensen who changed our life, that Mr. Jensen that saw something greater in us than what others saw. So, I’m thinking about my own Mr. Jensen right now, Clint, as I’m listening to you. There’s a couple great people to come to mind in my life but I’m focused on you and these drumsticks. Can you give us a sample of what you learned how to do with those drumsticks?

Clint Pulver:

Totally. Yeah, we got the drums live here in the studio. Check this out, Eddie. Let’s see if this works. We’ll switch this over. Boom! There we are. Check it out! We’ve got the drums in the studio. Let’s see if this works here. Cool! It’s working. Awesome! All right, we’re going to throw down here for a minute.

Eddie Turner:

Looks serious.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, it’s time to get crazy.

Eddie Turner:

Let’s rock it out.

Clint Pulver:

Now, hang on. Before I do, Eddie, I want to dedicate this to everybody that’s watching. Right now, there’s two types of people in this world. there are people that constantly see the problems, they constantly see the issues. It doesn’t matter how great or how wonderful it is, they will constantly see the negative. And then there’s the people that constantly see the good. They choose to see what’s right in individuals and their company and their co-workers in their homes and their spouses. And when we do that, when we focus on the good, you set yourself up to create a better story not only in your own life but in the lives of other people. So, I dedicate this to that, that possibility. And then every time before I play, I have to dedicate it to Mr. Jensen, my teacher who 23 years ago looked at me and said “You’re not a problem. You’re a drummer.” So, this is for him and it’s for you watching. Let’s do this.

Eddie Turner:

Outstanding. Outstanding, Clint. Way to go! Thank you for showing us what having an advocate and a mentor did for you, Mr. Jensen, being able to help you. So, as we translate that back, we’ll have more right after this.

Eddie Turner:

We’re back and I’m talking to Clint Pulver. Folks, I have to say this is going to be released as an audio-only episode at the end of the year. And if you are listening to this audio only, do yourself a favor head over to KeepLeadingLIVE.com so you can see this yourself. You have to be able to appreciate what Clint was able to do and he’s got beautiful camera angles that allowed us to peer into seeing exactly how that unfolded. So, yes, it brings it to life the concept of having an effective mentor and how they help us to see beyond ourselves.

Clint Pulver:

Totally. He changed my life. Whew! I’m out of shape, buddy. I don’t know about you. I’m not calling this the pandemic. This has been the poundemic for me. Holy moly!

Eddie Turner:

Oh man, we won’t talk about that! Oh, I got a story on that.

Clint Pulver:

Real, right? It was real.

Eddie Turner:

Yes, it’s going to take me another year to recover.

Clint Pulver:

Again, all because somebody believed in me, right? Somebody created a moment. Someone advocated for me and it changed everything. My life has been a completely different and better story because somebody just chose to see the opportunity and, yeah, I owe him a lot.

Eddie Turner:

And has Mr. Jensen been able to or other faculty from that time period of your life been able to see what you’ve become as a result?

Clint Pulver:

Absolutely. So, Mr. Jensen is still a major part of my life. He’s still alive, I call him Larry. Let me see if I can pull this up real quick. This will be fun. There he is. There’s a picture of me and Mr. Jensen.

Eddie Turner:

Oh, that’s wonderful.

Clint Pulver:

And I asked him four years ago, I said “Larry, why me? Why was I the kid that got the drumsticks?” And he simply said, he said “I’ll tell you why.” He said “I chose one kid every term, every semester.” He said “I learned early on as an educator that I couldn’t save every kid but I could save one and you were the one.” And he said “Every morning I woke up, I wiggled my toes, I knew I was alive as a teacher and I went to work for one kid.” And some people were like “What is this? The starfish story?” Yeah, kind of. It kind of is. And I think that’s how we create the greatest amount of influence. It’s individual. It’s one to one. It’s creating those little moments. It’s those small little efforts. Mother Teresa said it might just seem like a drop in the bucket but at least it’s a drop in the bucket. And it is little by little and it becomes a lot.

Eddie Turner:

Yes, excellent. Educators are not paid enough. I firmly believe that we have great educators that we don’t really fully sometimes as a society appreciate the value that dedicated hard-working educators bring to the classroom. It’s more than that instruction they deliver from the book. It’s those little things like what happened with you, those little moments that transform a lifetime.

We don’t know who this person is because LinkedIn didn’t share the name with us but we did have one person that chimed in and said they loved your use of poundemic. He’s that’s coming to us from Virginia. So, thank you from Lincoln in Virginia.

Well, listen, Clint, what’s the most important lesson you would love for our listeners to take away from our conversation today?

Clint Pulver:

I think at the end of our life we’ll be surrounded by two things. We’ll be surrounded by the woulda-shoulda-coulda’s or the do it-did it-done it’s. And something I’ve always strived to remember in my life is that it’s not about being the best in the world. It’s about being the best for the world. There’s a very big difference between success in leadership and significance in leadership. And to be honest with you, Eddie, I don’t really remember a lot of what Mr. Jensen ever taught me but one thing is for darn certain, I will never forget the drumsticks. We don’t forget the moments. That’s how great leaders become legendary, they become lasting. If I were to ask you to tell me who the last three NFL MVPs were or who were the last two Academy Award winners for best actor or who were the last two Miss Americas, most people have no clue but yet we would deem those people to be successful or wealthy or popular or prestigious or millions of followers on their social media platforms but nobody knows who they are.

Eddie Turner:

And that’s something.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then just like you instantly recalled when I was telling the Mr. Jensen story, tell me the name of a teacher that made a difference in your life. You instantly remember them. Tell me the name of a co-worker, somebody in your work life who’s made your story better. You remember those people because they remembered you. They became significant, not just successful. It’s not about being the best in the world. It is about being the best for the world.

Eddie Turner:

Not about being the best in the world but being the best for the world. And we won’t say that you don’t remember what he taught you because he wasn’t a good teacher but as Maya Angelou would say, “It’s because people won’t necessarily remember what we’ve said but they’ll never forget the way we made them feel.” So, yes, absolutely.

Now I now know who the mysterious person was. LinkedIn didn’t push it over but I’m learning that that’s Lisa Nerell. She’s amazing. She’s one of my future guests. We’ve actually captured the episode and I can’t wait to release it. I haven’t gotten it back from the engineering team yet but she’s amazing. She’s one of Marshall Goldsmith’s 100 coaches. And so, Lisa, thank you for chiming in on our discussion and we can’t wait to have you as well.

So, good. Clint, you’ve given us a lot to think about. You’ve given us the five C’s. We now know about your book I Love It Here to go pick that up but tell us where can we learn more about you and be able to follow you.

Clint Pulver:

Yeah, connect with me on Instagram. I love Instagram. It’s a great platform. My website is another great place, ClintPullver.com. And you can find the book on Amazon and Goodreads, Barnes & Noble, all the places.

Eddie Turner:

All right, excellent. Well, I’m going to encourage everyone who’s listening to the audio version, everyone who’s tuned in to seeing us in person here, go follow Clint over. He’s doing amazing work. We didn’t get a chance to talk about him being a pilot and his keynote speeches and what he’s doing to light up audiences around the world. In fact, one of NSA’s hall of fame speakers, National Speakers Association has hall of fame speakers, Jason Hewitt said something glowing about Clint Pulver. And if Jason Hewitt speaks glowingly about him as a keynote speaker in front of thousands of people, that means he’s the real deal for sure. So, follow him, book him for your organization, pick up his book.

And, Clint, I just want to thank you for being here and explaining the difference between mentorship and management, the impact it has so that we all can keep leading.

Clint Pulver:

Thank you, Eddie.

Eddie Turner:

That concludes this episode, everyone. This is Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once you’re a leader, you’re always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.