Keep Leading!® Podcast Episode 026 | How Women Rise | Sally Helgesen

Hello. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator.Are you a successful woman who still finds herself struggling to get the next promotion or career opportunity you deserve? If this is you or a woman you know, you will want to listen to this episode. I have the honor to interview the legendary Sally Helgesen, the world’s premier expert on women’s leadership. Sally will explain how women everywhere can advance to the next level right after this.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive live impact through the power of facilitation, coaching, and speaking. I have had the opportunity to interview you some really impressive people. I’m especially honored however to interview Sally Helgesen, my guest for today. To give you an idea of why I am so excited to have Sally here, let me share the words of one of the foremost thought leaders in the leadership space today Jim Kouzes. He’s the author of The Leadership Challenge. Jim says is this.“Sally Helgesen is an original. She pioneered women’s leadership before it was a popular topic and has established herself as the gold standard in the field. No one is more qualified than Sally.”

Now, that is an impressive testimonial, if I’ve ever read one now. Sally Helgesen is cited by Forbes as the world’s premier expert on women’s leadership. She’s a bestselling author, speaker, and leadership coach. For 30 years her mission has been to help women leaders around the world recognize, articulate and act on their greatest strengths. Sally’s most recent book How Women Rise, co-authored with coaching legend Marshall Goldsmith, became the top selling title in its field within a week of publication. Her previous books include The Female Advantage, Women’s Ways of Leadership. It was hailed as the classic in its field and continuously in print since 19990. Also, The Web of Inclusion – A New Architecture for Building Great Organizations. This was cited in the Wall Street Journal as one of the best books on leadership of all time and is credited with bringing the language of inclusion into business. So, this is why I am so excited to have Sally Helgesen with me today.

Sally, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Thank you, Eddie. It is wonderful to be here.

Sally, would you please tell my listeners more about you?

Well, I have been working in the field of women’s leadership and inclusive leadership for the last 30 years starting with the publication of that book you referenced, The Female Advantage, Women’s Ways of Leadership which I’m very proud to say was the first book that looked at what women have to contribute rather than how they need to change and adapt. This resulted in a very unexpected career for me as an author, speaker, and leadership coach and I have always had this entire time a consistent mission which is to help women recognize, articulate, and act on their greatest strengths and to help organizations develop more inclusive cultures where women and other diverse employees can really thrive and realize their best talents.

That’s very interesting, Sally. Now, you mentioned that part of this inclusivity was helping organizations understand that women have something unique to offer and don’t necessarily need to change to be included.

That’s correct. I did actually the diary studies of some of America’s most accomplished women leaders for the book The Female Advantage and what I saw was that they had certain strengths that were consistent even though they were extremely diverse as leaders and strengths like capacity to build strong relationships and encourage strong relationships throughout their organizations and an appreciation of as opposed to a tolerance for diversity because they themselves had been outsiders and understood both the value that an outside perspective could bring and also the value of fresh eyes looking on a problem. So those things were very obvious to me, comfort with direct communication as opposed to communication up and down the chain of command. So, I felt it was really important to put those out there because especially over the last 30 years as the technology has redefined organizations, these are the strengths organizations need now.

Indeed. And I can imagine the refreshment that must have come to understand that they did not have to become someone else. They could be who they are and that should be celebrated and appreciated by organizations.

That’s one of the big messages here that by digging down and seeing what is most authentic about what you have to contribute, you are going to be able to build a leadership profile, a leadership style that is sustainable and that is rewarding to you and that really reflects your talents because when you’re trying to just to meet expectations that may not reflect your best talent, that’s not necessarily sustainable because you’re always trying to achieve something that isn’t really authentic to you and you can end up disengaging. So what we really need to think about in the workplace now that the nature of talent pool is so highly diverse. And this is not obviously just in the US. I work all over the world and in global companies we have a highly diverse talent pool will. In order to realize the real benefits of that, we need an inclusive culture in which people can bring their best selves strategically and tactically to work.

Yes. And, as you said, even across the globe you’re seeing this. This isn’t localized. It’s not a regional phenomenon. More and more organizations are trying to really understand and appreciate the value of inclusivity.

That’s exactly right. And the reason they’re being pushed to appreciate the value of inclusivity has to do with that diverse talent pool. I often hear organizations saying things like “Diversity is our goal.” No, diversity is not your goal. Diversity is your reality. You need to figure out how to lead that well, how to lead in that environment and inclusivity is the method or the means for leading in that environment.

And part of helping organizations and specifically women celebrate their contributions in a lot of organizations that hired them to be inclusive and to value their diversity is helping women recognize and tap into their talents. And you’ve written a lot about this including the book that you referenced but your latest book, I absolutely love this book and thank you for sending me a copy.

Thank you.

How Women Rise – Break The twelve Habits Holding You Back from Your Next Raise, Promotion, or Job.Now, I have to admit I’ve also been referring this and I bought a couple copies for clients because it really is to me one of those things that becomes a tool in the toolbox of senior women and a lot of my clients happen to be women and they’re very well educated, highly successful but they hit certain roadblocks. And it’s been interesting to me to see this and you address them and that’s why I’ve given this as gifts since I’ve been recommending it because you address these things in your book. So, can you tell my listeners what motivated you to write this book?

Yes, exactly. How Women Rise, I co-authored it with Marshall Goldsmith who, of course, is a legend in the field of leadership coaching. What inspired me was Marshall had written a great book published in 2010, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, which is about the behaviors and habits most likely to get in the way of successful people and hold them back from achieving the next level of success. I felt the template Marshall came up with was brilliant. Basically, his insight was that same habits that may serve you early in your career can become problematic as you seek to move higher and yet you’re invested in them. You hold onto them because you recognize that they played a role in getting you where they are. So, you keep trying to use them even though they may be getting in your way as you try to move higher. So, I loved the template. I loved the idea. It really resonated for me in terms of the women I’ve been working with for 30 years but I noticed that, and it’s not surprising because Marshall works with the CEOs and the most senior executives, and his coaching base is probably traditionally about 80% men. So, it wasn’t surprising to me that some of the habits and behaviors that he focused on weren’t necessarily that appropriate or that much of a problem for women. He starts by saying “Learn to apologize” and it made me laugh. I work with women even at the most senior levels who cannot stop apologizing. They apologize when they open the door. They apologize to the door. That’s their opening line when they walk in a room. So, I thought “Well, that’s not that big a deal.” And then he has things like “Stop talking about how great you are all the time.” Well, again, I haven’t noticed that being a big issue for most women. So, I suggested to Marshall that we collaborate based on our, probably putting it together, 65 years of coaching experience and working with leaders around the world that we collaborate on a book that look specifically at the habits and behaviors most likely to hold women back as they seek to make it to that next level. And what you had to say about it is exactly what we’re finding, which is that coaches find this enormously useful. I’m heading to Tokyo next week to work with a group of coaches on using the material in How Women Rise in coaching women and also in coaching man to be more effective allies, supporters, mentors, and sponsors for women.

Yes. And I’m glad you said that because it absolutely addresses both sides of that coin. And indeed, Marshall’s book was required reading when I went through my coach training program. So as a result, it was a book I always refer to my client as well but as I gained more experience as a coach, that’s when I started to see the stark difference that you just described. Women don’t have those challenges that we see very clearly in senior very successful men. And so, a different resource was needed. And so, I think this is kind of a one-two punch for every coach to have in their toolkit and every leader to have in their toolkit to understand the value that both books offer.

Thank you, Eddie. We’re really finding that they’re highly complementary. And, as I said, they’re really rooted in that fundamental insight that the behaviors and habits that can serve you well early in your career can become problematic as you seek to move to the highest level.

Yes, absolutely. And what would you say is the biggest takeaway from the book?

I think the biggest takeaway is that it’s possible and, in fact, not that terribly difficult although you need persistence to begin to change habits and behaviors that may have gotten in your way. In addition to offering observations about 12 behaviors that are most likely to hold women back, we present a very powerful template for changing habits and behaviors that breaks it down and makes it something that people can really do. Our habits and behaviors are not rooted in our character. They are rooted in our experience, which is the primary reason that men and women often have different habits because our experiences in the workplace are often different. So, I’ve always believed that by practicing new behaviors you begin to change what your experience is and that becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. So, we have a really good road map for doing that, which is, again, I think, one reason that coaches are finding this so useful.

Yes, the roadmap is one of the key things, I think, as well in the book that I absolutely value. Clients can almost do it yourself. They almost don’t need us, which is actually what we want, right?

Yeah. We’ve got four steps in there and the second step is “Don’t do this alone.” So that can mean engaging a coach, it can mean engaging a peer coach and it can mean getting comfortable sort of engaging people for spot peer coaching on the fly, to give you feedback or feed forward about something you’re trying to change.

yes, I was going to say that. That’s Excellent. I appreciate you highlighting that but there’s something else, I think, that people will find value in, at least I did when I was reading it. It’s all the case studies, real-life examples that you include, because as I was reading it, I was thinking “This is Client A. This is Client B.” And so, yes, those stories really bring the content, the theory to life. And then you give that roadmap for people. So just a really excellent resource for coaches and clients alike.

Yeah, as you say, those are real-life stories. They come from, as I said, my 30 years out there and some of them come from Marshall’s experience when he coached women. So, I think they jump off the page to people, that’s what we’re hearing, and make it vivid and real and not theoretical. This is not an academic book. This is a book that is aimed at people in the workplace who want to be more successful.

Yes, yes indeed. Well, thank you, Sally.We’re talking to Sally Helgesen and she’s talking to us about How Women Rise. We’ll hear more from Sally right after this.

We’re back, everyone. We’re talking to the legendary Sally Helgesen and she is helping us to understand How Women Rise and she’s also sharing with us of the importance of diversity and inclusion.Sally, before we took our break, you were telling us about your fantastic book How Women Rise – Break the Twelve Habits Holding You Back from Your Next, Raise, Promotion or Job. And I’d like shift gears just a tad now. We cited the stat that Forbes has provided about you. You are one of the world’s premier experts on women’s leadership and we cited what Jim Kouzes said about you that, in fact, no one is more qualified than you and you were a pioneer in women’s leadership before it was even popular but I found something else out about you. In addition to those amazing words, I happen to be reading a book when I was at the Doerr Institute not long ago. You and I were introduced to each other through the Executive Founder Tom Kolditz.

Yes.

And I was there on a little work. And while I was waiting, I was looking through a book that caught my eye. It was entitled The Art and Practice of Leadership Coaching. This book was written in 2005 although it was reprinted again in 2011 but as far back as 2005 you were being cited even then as one of the top 50 executive coaches in the world. So, your work speaks for itself. You are a thought leader and I’m just so super excited to have you on the show.Tell us, if you would, please, your perspective as an executive coach, tell us a little bit more about your work in that area.

All right. My work as an executive coach has grown directly out of the research that I’ve done in the seven books about women’s leadership but also leadership in general in a changing technologically interconnected knowledge economy. So, it really draws very much out of that and it is very focused on practicing better behaviors to get better results. I am certified in Marshall Goldsmith’s wonderful stakeholder-centered coaching method which basically requires coachees to enlist other people in the organization, the people who actually have the experience of working with them, to evaluate how they’re changing what the impact of that is. And I find it an extremely powerful method because, again, it’s focused very much on making measured, sometimes very small, positive behavioral changes and sustaining them over time. And I think that engaging stakeholders is a very powerful way of doing that. So, I get a lot of value from that. I work with individuals but you know what I really love is group coaching. Yes, I think it’s because small group coaching, taking four or six individuals who are maybe just below the most senior leadership level or who are partners in a law firm or an accounting firm but possibly not equity partners etc., I like working with a small group and I think it’s because so much of my work and my thinking has evolved out of doing workshops over the last 30 years. After The Female Advantage was published, people started asking me “I want you come in and talk to our women. Can you come in and talk to our company, our organization?” So, I started doing so and I did a lot of keynotes and I still do a lot of keynotes. I still do a lot of those kinds of presentations but increasingly I’ve focused on doing workshops because I find that they have a more measurable impact and also because I don’t have to do all the work. I get people engaged and we have a lot more fun than be standing up there grinding on. So, it’s a wonderful way of working with people, or working with companies. I’ve done these all over the world from Egypt to up above the Arctic Circle, Northern Norway to Kuala Lumpur, Melbourne, Singapore everywhere. And I’ve really learned a lot from them. People work with one another. So, what I find about small group coaching is its way of intensifying and kind of continuing that process but doing it in a way that you can really measure the results of people’s change and the impact that they’re having both in terms of creating more satisfying careers for themselves but also beginning to shift the culture of the organization. So, I just love doing that kind of small group coaching. It feels very hands-on, it feels intimate, but it also feels high impact.

Very well said. Thank you for sharing that. And indeed, group coaching, team coaching is a new aspect of coaching. It’s really getting a lot of attention as of late and more people are looking for ways to get involved with that and I see more programming becoming available but also something you said there that resonated is the fact that obviously you’re a professional speaker and you give keynotes. I just recently wrote an article in Speaker Magazine that’s published by the National Speakers Association and that is one of the suggestions I made to keynoters – When you give your keynote, it feels good, the audience loves it but then they go back to work. When they go back to work, they have a hard time applying, even if they have the best intentions, the things they heard and were inspired by when you spoke. And so, the recommendation that I put in there was to offer workshops as a follow-up to the keynote and gave a method and things that they should consider. And it’s interesting just, it hasn’t gone live and yet, but when I offered this as part of my workshop that I delivered to chapters, the response was very intriguing. It was intriguing for some people to hear that because they had not considered it. And the fact that you really have a chance to move the needle for the client far more in a smaller group than of course with a large audience of the keynote. And so, some people reached out to me and told me how they’ve been applying that but then you said something that really matters even more. It’s not just having a small group Interaction, that small group coaching, that small workshop but it’s measuring the impact. Can you talk a little bit more about what that does to your relationship with clients and the people who you’re measuring?

Well, it’s so important to be able to measure that. When and I do workshops, I try to suggest “Let’s have a check-in in three months and I won’t charge you. Let’s have a check-in in six months. I won’t charge you.” I want to see how people are doing so they can remain on track. That’s really part of what I offer because what concerns me is impact. As I said earlier, my mission has always been helping women to recognize, articulate, and act on their greatest strengths and helping organizations create more inclusive cultures in which everyone can thrive. So how do I know whether my own work is creating those kinds of impacts unless in there in the loop and can hear how it’s going. So that’s one of the things that’s so powerful about group coaching is you really can do that. And how do you measure it? You measure it by gauging what the people around the person who’s being coached or if you’re coaching a team, what the experience of the team is in terms, depending on their goal, is their goal to be more harmonious, is their goal to be more creative, is their goal to be more impactful, is their goal to be more strategic, is their goal to change the culture of the organization, what is the goal that they’re trying to achieve. And then once you get people to really focus on that and articulate it, then you can do some background interviews with people around them and you know how well is this working. And if the answer is “Oh, it’s working fantastically,” that’s nice but if the answer is “You know, I think it’s working well but,” then you listen to that and you begin to include that or in recalibration going forward. So, I think it really keeps the process honest and it keeps the process focused on the client whether it’s an individual or a small group or a team, and those are two different things. I think that that’s really, really important. So, you want to have impact. That’s your goal. Impact is your goal. You’ve got to find a way of checking in and seeing how it’s working and find out the perceptions that the people around the members of the group or the team to see if it’s working.

Yes, and as the proverbial saying goes, what gets measured is what gets done.

That’s it.

And certainly impact is a part of my tagline – “Accelerate performance and drive impact.” So, we have to have measurement if we’re going to be able to do that and prove that we’ve done it. So, thank you for sharing that.

I wanted to say one thing though, Eddie, also. Measuring does not have to always be hard numbers. There are many qualitative measures that you can pay attention to in terms of what people’s experiences are. And sometimes I’m concerned that when we talk about measurement, it means you want to quantify absolutely everything. And what we’re talking about is human relationships. And as my friend Tom Peters always says, “Numbers are soft and relationships are hard,” and I agree with that. Numbers can be adjusted. Relationships are tough to do. So, I think that the awareness, the qualitative improvements are also measurable, not just quantitative is key.

That’s interesting. Thank you for sharing that because, yes, I am only thinking about the quantitative side but the qualitative side, do you have recommendations for that, have you written about that someplace that we can reference?

Interestingly, I don’t think I’ve really written about it. It’s a good idea. If I ever get 5 minutes, I probably should do that. By quantitative, I really mean I come at my career not as an organizational psychologist but really my background was as a writer, as both a journalist and speechwriter. I did a lot of corporate communications before The Female Advantage and it was in fact my experiencing in corporate communications that led to the frustration that resulted in my writing The Female Advantage – Women’s Ways of Leadership and publishing that book way back in 1990. So, I come at this from a writing point of view. And when you’re a writer, whether you’re a journalist or a speechwriter, you are always trying to interview people in a very comprehensive way to try to understand what their experience is, what their perspective is, etc. Journalism that is highly quantitative is unbelievably boring to me. That’s not research. Research is different than the kind of comprehensive analysis. So basically what I try to do in order to get that qualitative aspect is to interview as many people as I can around the group, the team, or the individual I’m coaching, get them to share what their experiences are instead of questions like “How many times did so and so do X, Y, and Z?” and then you get a number but how meaningful is it.

Well, thank you for sharing that. That shifts my perspective, yes, because I’m only usually thinking about the quantitative but the qualitative component of measurement, there is some value there. I can see that. Thank you for sharing.

Sure.

Now, you talked about your work as an executive coach but you also are known as a great leadership coach. In your mind what’s the difference?

Well, I really don’t see myself as an executive coach. I see myself as a leadership coach. And I think executive coaching, and my guess is that Marshall would agree with this definition, executive coaching is often very much focused on helping an executive make certain strategic decisions, financial decisions, etc. I really view leadership coaching as a more comprehensive term that basically what I’m committed to is helping people realize their best leadership talents. So, it’s more focused in a way on the individual or the small group than necessarily on what the organization is looking for in terms of quantitative outcomes. So that’s how I see the difference to some degree but I’m not weathered to that but I’m much more comfortable describing myself as a leadership coach.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing that because that’s a big difference. I really appreciate that.So, if someone’s listening to our conversation right now and thinking that they would like to make a change for the better, what’s one thing they can start with?

One thing they can start with is to really start enlisting other people in their development. And as noted in How Women Rise, we’ve got a really good template for doing this. So, when you identify something that you get feedback, maybe getting in a way. It could be through a performance review or it could be just that you notice that a number people in your organization and probably including your spouse are telling you you’re not very good at listening or you need to be a little more patient with people or you share too much information, you’re not quite concise enough or you need to stop minimizing what your achievements and contributions are and stand with it, present it more. These are very easily observable habits and behaviors that can get in your way as a leader. So, once you identify what that is, I think it’s very helpful to kind of break it down. Say you have feedback that, and this is true for a lot of women, too much information, too many details, too much background, try to be more concise when you present about something, when you get that, what is helpful rather than feeling overwhelmed or “What am I going to do?” to just pick a situation where you’re going to practice being more concise – “Oh, this meeting I have every two weeks and I’ve gotten some feedback back that people were saying “You were a little all over the map there.” So, I’m going to try in this meeting to prepare to be more concise.” And then you can enlist people to help you. You can say “You know, I’m going into this meeting. You’re always there. You’ve seen me in the past. I’m really working on getting much more concise and focused in how I present. Could you watch me and let me know how you think I’m doing, if there’s something I could do that would be more effective?” or you can go to somebody who’s very good at being concise and say “Look, I’m really working on this. I’ve noticed you seem to be terrific at it. Do you have any tips for me? Is there anything you do when you’re preparing?” So that process of enlisting other people to sort of get their ideas, get their input, get their support is really important.And I want to say one thing, and marshal’s really clear on this. When you do that, you only have one response when they tell you that – “Well, the reason I don’t do that is but” or “but that would be difficult for me in this situation.” Your only response is “Thank you.” You don’t you have to it. You may disagree with it but your only response is “Thank you.”

Yes. I started laughing because I knew exactly where you would go with that. That’s so true. So, as you said earlier, don’t try to go it alone. Thank you for that advice.Sally, this has been an incredible conversation. I could talk to you for hours. What is the main message you’d like to leave our listeners with?

It’s partly “Don’t do it alone when you’re trying to make change” but I think also the best advice I have to give, and this is really important for women and for any kind of diverse employees who may constantly be worrying that they’re going to be perceived as arrogant if they talk about themselves or if they present their achievements, and that is doing your work is half the job. You also need to know how to market what you contribute. Connections and visibility are as important to your career as just doing a great job.

Wonderful! That is excellent advice indeed. Doing the work is only half the job. You also need to know how to market what you contribute.

Yes.

Thank you.Where can my listeners learn more about you?

Well, my website certainly which is SallyHelgesen.com. Also, although I notice on my screen, I’ve got 46 messages that I have to respond to on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is my preferred social media channel. So, connect with me on LinkedIn and I will get back to those 46 people and I will also get back to you if you decide to connect with me.

Well, I believe after this interview airs, you’re going to have far more than 46 people knocking on your door to connect with you. So, we’re going to be sure put how to connect with you in the show notes that people will see on their handheld devices and also my website and my website will also have a link to how they can pick up a copy of your book. So, thank you so much for being here. I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, Sally.

It’s been a great pleasure. I particularly enjoyed our talking about leadership coaching, group coaching, and how the habits and behaviors that get in people’s way can really be addressed through coaching.

Indeed, indeed. Thank you so much.

My pleasure, Eddie.

And thank you for listening. Well, that concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.