Mark Hannum
Chief Research Officer Emeritus at Linkage | Author of “Become.”
Exploring Purposeful Leadership
Episode Summary
Linkage, Inc’s tagline is: “Changing the Face of Leadership!” Linkage’s primary tool in this mission is their proprietary leadership model called Purposeful Leadership®. I love the model, the tagline, and the name! On Episode 132 of the Keep Leading!® podcast, I interviewed Mark Hannum— Linkage’s Chief Research Officer Emeritus about the model. We also discussed his book “Become—The 5 Commitments of Purposeful Leadership.”
Check out the “60-Second Preview” of this episode!
Bio
Mark Hannum is Linkage’s Emeritus Chief Research Officer. Trained as an experimental psychologist and as an organization development consultant, Mark has developed an understanding of leaders and leadership over a lifetime. Over 24 years with Linkage, Mark conducted several different research projects for clients focused on leadership. He ultimately led Linkage’s study of leadership, resulting in Purposeful Leadership and the book he authored, “Become: The Five Commitments of Purposeful Leadership.” Mark lives in central Massachusetts with his wife, Judy, and their Jack Russel terrier, Siri.
Website
https://www.linkageinc.com/team-member/mark-hannum/
LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-hannum-104a561b/
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A leader navigates the world as it unfolds, creating a sustainable future for themselves, their community, or their organization.
Get Your Copy of Mark’s Book!
https://www.amazon.com/Become-Purposeful-Leadership-Mark-Hannum/dp/1260457567
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Transcript
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Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to promoting leadership development and sharing leadership insights. Here’s your host, The Leadership Excelerator®, Eddie Turner.
Eddie Turner:
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the
Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speaking.
There is a boutique international leadership development company based in Massachusetts. It has as its tagline “Changing the face of leadership.” That company is Linkage Incorporated. One of the ways Linkage is changing the face of leadership is through the phenomenal work they’re doing with women and other historically disenfranchised leaders. A primary tool Linkage uses is their proprietary leadership model called Purposeful Leadership. I love the name and I love the model. So, in this episode, I wanted to talk to the man behind that model and that name. I have the honor of speaking with Mark Hannum. Mark is Linkage’s Chief Research Officer Emeritus who was behind that model and the author of Become: The Five Commitments of Purposeful Leadership. Mark spent 25 years with Linkage. During that time, he conducted a number of research projects for clients focused on leadership. He’s trained as an experimental psychologist and as an organizational development consultant. Mark has used that training and his experience to develop an understanding of leaders and leadership over a lifetime. For this reason and more, I’m excited to welcome Mark Hannum to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.
Welcome, Mark.
Mark Hannum:
It is great to be here, Eddie. I got my sleeves rolled up. I’m ready to rock.
Eddie Turner:
Outstanding. So, we’re going to do some real work on leadership here on the Keep Leading!® Podcast.
Eddie Turner:
I love it. Mark, tell us more about you and your fascinating background.
Mark Hannum:
Well, I grew up here in Massachusetts. I’m the product of an Irish-Catholic-British family. I mean, I literally had a British father and an Irish mother and I literally grew up in the western part of the state, which is trees and mountains and scenic views and as far away from Boston as you possibly can get. So, I’m a country boy at heart. And I grew up riding my bike, playing baseball, reading books and I excelled at a lot of things and didn’t excel at a lot of others but in the end, I chose the path of going into the priesthood, went to school for that, decided not to do it, ended up pursuing a PhD in Psychology at the University of Oklahoma, getting married, having kids and then really just sort of falling into the world of leadership development back around 1985-1986, literally by total accident, serendipity, if you will, and ended up meeting and being mentored by and being exposed to some of the best people in the leadership development world all through the ‘80s and ‘90s. It was quite a ride, quite a ride.
Eddie Turner:
Well, thank you for sharing that. It’s been interesting that the man that came up with the Purposeful Leadership model fell into leadership by accident.
Mark Hannum:
It’s kind of interesting and it’s even more interesting because I grew up hating leaders. I grew up in a very western Massachusetts town where the leaders of a very large corporation basically shut down a factory, put 5000 people out of work, completely destroyed the economy of the town, led to a number of things that sort of … as the dominoes started to fall, other leaders started to fail. And when they failed, they got greedy and they got selfish and I literally hated leaders. When I went into the priesthood, I went into the Jesuits because there is no leadership in the Jesuit order. I chose to go into that because of the absence of leaders. That’s another part of the serendipity of this, it’s that I had this doubt, I had this critical analysis that I had done my whole life about what leaders are and what they should be and how they should act. And that sort of drove me as well. I went into every leadership research project that I did doubting that there was any semblance of good in what they were doing. And I had to look hard for it.
Eddie Turner:
Isn’t that interesting. Wow! Thank you for sharing that. And, Mark, what you just said, the first time I heard that, it shocked me but it came from one of my students who was from another country through work I was doing as a coach in leadership at a university. This young person, and later on I heard from others, where they came from, they hated the idea of being trained to be a leader as we were trying to do and produce leaders at the university because leader was a bad word because of the leaders they saw in their countries and that’s what they equated leadership with and they were like “I want to be a good person. I don’t want to be a leader.”
Mark Hannum:
I think there is something to that story in terms of the narration and you do have to get past that. If you want to become a leader yourself, you have to resolve that conflict in yourself, if you really want to become a leader. You have to resolve conflicts with power. You have to resolve conflicts with making decisions for large numbers of people. There’s a number of things that you have to get past if you really want to lead.
Eddie Turner:
And you got past it indeed. And not only did you get past it but you unlocked the key that helps others get past it.
Eddie Turner:
Tell us how you came up with the Purposeful Leadership Model.
Mark Hannum:
Well, if we roll the clock back to about 2012-2013 at Linkage, we have been dealing with a leadership model that was created literally in the mid-1990s. And it had a very august group of people that created it, including Warren Bennis who is like the dean or the father of leadership development. And that model was getting old. It was getting stale. There was research coming out that sort of disproved various pieces of it. You would sit in front of people and you would talk through their 360 based on that model and they would look at you with arched eyebrows like “That ain’t true. That ain’t what I read. That ain’t what people are teaching today.” So, I started bringing up the idea within Linkage of “Hey, research leadership. Let’s get this model right. Let’s revise it. Let’s edit it. Let’s bring it up to date.” And there was a lot of resistance to that, to be completely honest with you, because it was attached to Warren Bennis. I mean …
Eddie Turner:
A legend in the field.
Mark Hannum:
A legend you don’t go against – “We got Warren Bennis. Why would we want anything different?” So, we pushed and we prodded and we probed and we finally got the acknowledgement that, yeah, maybe we should do something and Mark went “Go ahead and go do it.” So, I went off on my own at first and started to do the work. We had a leadership change at linkage. Matt Norquist came in as our CEO and Matt was excited by the possibility of this. I mean, he just glommed onto it and he accelerated it, he put the money, he put the people behind me and we just flew at that point. So, it does take an organization to get things done. You can’t get them done yourself. And when finally other people saw the vision that was there, saw the need that was there, it took off. We had 106,000 leaders in the database that we had around the old 360. So, we started to think about how we could use that database to accelerate the research. And the first thing we did, because we didn’t have a real measurement of effectiveness, is we basically took the number of fives that people got from their raters and created a quartile mix, top quartile of fives, top middle quartile, bottom middle quartile, bottom quartile, based just on the number of fives you get. And when we just looked at that, what do people do who get lots of fives, and the number one thing that came up was they have a compelling message about the future for their organization. That’s what they do. They have a compelling message about the future for their organization. They have a vision. They distill ideas into inspiring messages. They get stakeholder commitment from other people. They influence the dialogue in a very, very positive way. These were the things that came up. So, we said “All right, this is great that we’ve got this” but Matt, then we took his expertise and he basically said “Let’s create something called the Purposeful Leader Index. Let’s go out to companies and let’s measure all of these different behaviors that surfaced in our 106,000 and let’s think about how those things relate to financial performance, competitive differentiation, employee engagement, and we’ll create something called a Net Promoter Score for employee-driven behavior.” So, we did that. And what came back was exactly the same stuff – the best leaders in the best organizations are people who articulate a compelling message for that future that has sort of clear action, clear behavior behind it, they communicate in a very positive proactive way about that future, they manage to foster collaboration between people, they really work with people to develop them, they have a sense of purpose and they organize people around that sense of purpose. THAT’S what came back. And we further distill that into this basic idea that if you are a really effective leader, you’re doing three things. You are good for the people in your organization, you’re developing them, you’re challenging them, you’re mentoring them, you’re coaching them, you’re investing in them; you are a positive influence on the culture of your organization, the way things get done; and you set great goals that elevate the business results or the competitiveness of your organization. That’s what they do. That’s what leaders do.
Eddie Turner:
That’s really good. So, I hear you saying that Matt Norquist came in as a CEO and basically saw an unrefined gold mine of data from all of these assessments, over 100,000 assessments that have been issued and said “What can we do with this?”
Mark Hannum:
Exactly. And I was out there advocating for that too. I mean, we were of like mind about the gold mine, we were of like mind about what to do but Matt was a statistician in his early life, I was in a way as well with experimental psychology, we knew we had this gold mine. We needed to do something with it. We needed to update what Linkage had as its treasure trove that was quickly gathering dust and sort of fading in the limelight.
Eddie Turner:
Especially, if you’re going to introduce something new. And over what period of time had this data been collected?
Mark Hannum:
That data was probably 15 to 16 or 17 years.
Eddie Turner:
And how many leaders has Linkage impacted over its 30-year history?
Mark Hannum:
Depending on how you want to count them, probably a million. I mean, we had 106,000 people in the original database. And you think about the number of people that they directly impact, you think about the number of people that filled out that thing, you think about the number of people who went through classes that were based on that that didn’t take a 360 that Linkage worked with based on that model, we easily impacted over a million leaders.
Eddie Turner:
Yes. So, either directly from one of the workshops or something that was run on site or through issuing this assessment, over one million leaders. And I think I saw one data sample that said most of these came from the Fortune 1000, so from top companies.
Mark Hannum:
Yes. And the other interesting fact about Linkage is that 99% of the time when we went out and worked with a group of people, they were the high potentials of those companies.
Mark Hannum:
They weren’t the average. We almost always worked with the highest potential people in organizations and still do today.
Eddie Turner:
Indeed, indeed. And I guess I should say in full disclosure, the other reason I’m really excited to interview Mark Hannum is because I recently joined Linkage as a principal consultant and executive coach. And when I had to master the content around purposeful leadership including the assessment to get certified, Mark is one of the people who helped me and taught me firsthand the knowledge that he invested into creating this. So, thank you very much for the time you spent with me, Mark.
Mark Hannum:
You’re very welcome. Welcome to the club.
Eddie Turner:
It’s a wonderful thing indeed. I love leadership, I’m passionate about it and that’s one of the reasons this podcast was started. And anytime I find a new framework, I think it’s all about the frameworks, I get excited. Don’t tell our boss but I love this stuff so much I do it for nothing but I do need a check every now and then.
Mark Hannum:
I think he might be listening to this.
Eddie Turner:
No, this is fun for me. This doesn’t even feel like work. I just love it.
Now, Mark, can you tell us a little bit more about the Become Commitment and how that ties back to other leadership frameworks or leaders?
Mark Hannum:
Well, the Become Framework is what we call the inner path to leadership at Linkage. And really it arose from multiple iterations of data warehousing and management and analysis. And, basically, what we try to say is that it’s about your courage, it’s about your commitment, about your self-awareness and about how you treat other people. And we had a very, very tough time trying to figure out what to name sort of as a title these four things of courage, commitment, self-awareness, and respectfulness. And as we started to think about it, we started to go back to “Oh my gosh! Our founder Warren Bennis emphasized those exact same four things when he developed his leadership models way, way back in the 1970s and 1960s.” So, we started to figure out in homage to Warren Bennis that what we should do is call this the Become Commitment. This is your inner journey. This is how you take on the lifetime commitment to become a better leader. So, it became the Become Commitment, this idea that you’re on a journey of courage, of commitment to what it is that is your set of responsibilities as a leader that you’re going to commit to being more and more and more self-aware every day and you’re going to commit to treating people better every day, you’re going to try to treat people with dignity every single day no matter who they are and no matter what they do. This idea that you are building goodwill with everybody you meet as a leader is so important and it was so fundamental to what Warren Bennis did. So, that’s our little homage back to the original model that Linkage created called the LAI.
Eddie Turner:
That’s good to know. And is there a reason that you call these commitments as opposed to behaviors?
Mark Hannum:
Yes, because a leader has to get up every day and say “I’m going to be working on these five things. I’m going to be committed to doing this.” They are not skills. They are complexes of various things. The whole idea emanates from the research we did, when we asked people what they wanted in a leader, they basically said “Somebody who sets a direction, somebody who’s going to help me to be a part of it, somebody who’s going to drive some innovation or at least get rid of the status quo and all the deadwood, somebody who’s going to organize us, somebody who’s going to put us in roles, put us in responsibilities and tell us how we’re supposed to interact but mainly we want somebody who’s just going to be a good person.” So, right there you have five things, right?
Mark Hannum:
So, if I work every day on being better at direction, better at engaging, better at innovating, better at organizing, and becoming a better person, I’m on my path to leadership.
Eddie Turner:
And sustainable leadership.
Mark Hannum:
And sustainable leadership. That’s right.
Eddie Turner:
Outstanding. Mark, thank you and it’s good to know the history behind the Purposeful Leadership Model and we want to learn a little bit more in just a moment about how it has impacted leaders around the world since its development and get back into the book that you produced.
So, I’m enjoying talking about Purposeful Leadership and I’m doing that with Mark Hannum. Mark Hannum is the Chief Research Officer Emeritus at Leakage Incorporated, the organization that is changing the face of leadership. He is the author of Become: The Five Commitments Of Purposeful Leadership. We’ll have more with Mark right after this.
This podcast is sponsored by Eddie Turner LLC. Organizations who need to accelerate the development of their leaders call Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. Eddie works with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact. Call Eddie Turner to help your leaders one on one as their coach or to inspire them as a group through the Power of facilitation or a keynote address. Visit EddieTurnerLLC.com to learn more.
Hi. This is Melissa Agnes, Author of Crisis Ready: Building An Invincible Brand in this Uncertain World, and that’s what I do, I help leaders build invincible brands, and you’re listening to the Keep Leading!® Podcast with Eddie Turner.
Eddie Turner:
We’re back. I’m talking about Purposeful Leadership and this conversation is with Mark Hannum. Mark is Linkage’s Chief Research Officer Emeritus. He’s the author of Become: The Five Commitments of Purposeful Leadership.
And before the break, you were telling us about Linkage and how the research came to be about that led to the book that led to Linkage’s most popular offering and the 360 Assessment that Linkage issues to leaders based on this model. People have a lot of definitions and frameworks when it comes to leadership. Can you tell us more clearly what makes Purposeful Leadership so different?
Mark Hannum:
The fact that it’s based on evidence. People come to understand leadership in a number of different ways. Probably the most popular way is “I was a leader. I’ve experienced what it means and I’m going to write a book and I’m going to define what leadership is and I’m going to tell people what they should be doing.” That’s a pretty popular way to define leadership or come to a definition of leadership.
Another way is through philosophical means. There’s a whole branch of leadership development which is based on ontology. It’s really a philosophical arm. There’s no evidence there. It’s just logic, assumptions, etc.
Yet another way is through research and evidence and that’s the way that we chose to go. So, when we say a leader is purposeful, we say that they have something that they want to accomplish. And whether they are in a small town and they want to build a playground for children and get all of the funding and all of the communities to support that or whether they are founding a not-for-profit organization that’s going to do some kind of really, really great work for a group of people that need it or whether they are running a grocery store in a small town or whether they’re running a Fortune 500 company, leaders are people who want to accomplish something, they want to get something done. And we came to that through evidence. They are purposeful. They are doing something that needs doing.
Eddie Turner:
I love that definition.
Mark Hannum:
There’s another way of thinking about it that I love and that’s that some people are bystanders and some people are upstanders. Well, leaders are upstanders.
Mark Hannum:
Or there’s another analogy that there are two types of bears. There are zoo bears and there are bears. Zoo bears are fed. Bears feed themselves.
Eddie Turner:
Okay. I like that. Being a guy from Chicago, when you say two bears, I think of the Bears or the Cubs but that’s a conversation for another day.
So, evidence, Purposeful Leadership is different because it is based on evidence, not someone’s opinion, not something that’s philosophical but something that can be proven and it’s based on evidence that has come and been able to stand the test of time.
Mark Hannum:
And there are two other larger studies. Now, when we did this study, we were the second largest study ever to be done on leadership and now we’re the third largest, this body of work. And the other two bodies of work basically say exactly the same thing that leaders are about getting things done. So, when we created the total model, what we basically said is leaders are people who have a vision to get something done. They develop people. They engage people to help them get it done. The goals that they set in place drive the innovation that changes the status quo to something new. And they organize people so that they can win at whatever it is the goals and vision is that that has been set. That’s the whole idea behind the model. And when you watch effective leaders, that’s what they do. They put a vision out there, they find the right people to help them accomplish it, they develop those people, they challenge those people, they restructure those people or rewire the way that the organization works, that’s the achieve function, but they also set in place that vision or goals that force innovation to happen so that the status quo of what is happening changes.
Eddie Turner:
That’s interesting, Mark. You said this is the second largest undertaking of its type. What was the largest?
Mark Hannum:
It was a study that was done in Fortune 100 companies a few years before that by the National Academy of Sciences. It was actually led by a Yale professor by the name of Amy Wazynski and it was published in 2014. So, we had that study in our archive, in our quiver, if you will, when we started Become. So, now there have been a couple of other studies that have been done that are as large as the one we did or larger. So, I think in terms of the number of people who participated, we’re like the third largest that’s ever been done.
Eddie Turner:
Okay, that’s impressive. That’s saying something.
Eddie Turner:
And that should give every Linkage client pride and confidence in the instrument that’s being used and in the model that’s being taken to their organizations.
Mark Hannum:
Yes. And, again, very much validated by many other studies, many, many other studies but to be honest with you, Eddie, this is the sort of crime that I think is out there is that people don’t read the evidence-based studies of leadership. They’d much rather pick up a book written by somebody who led XYZ Organization and has experienced this crisis and that crisis and this crisis. Maybe they came through it well, maybe they didn’t but they have their precepts about what leadership is and it’s not right.
Eddie Turner:
Correct. And that’s why they have to write another book later on to update what they wrote the first time or something else comes along that supplants it because it was not based on evidence, it was based on anecdotal experiences that may or may not have been things that are duplicable.
Mark Hannum:
That’s right. And when we go through an experience, there’s feel and there’s real, what it feels like we’re doing.
Eddie Turner:
I like that. There’s feel and there’s real.
Mark Hannum:
We feel like we’re doing the right things, that we have all the right intentions, we have all the right motivations, we’re doing all the right things when we talk to people but the reality is often quite different. We feel like we’re having a great conversation with somebody and they’re really coming around and they’re really being inspired by what I say but when you get on the other side of that conversation, to them it feels like “Oh my God! They were dictating what I had to do and they were telling me and they were micromanaging me.” Feel does not equal real. So, when a lot of people write their books, they’re talking about what it felt like and what they experienced, not necessarily what the total reality of the situation is versus “Here’s some evidence about what real leaders do and how they do it.” So, we end up with a bunch of assumptions about leadership like leaders need to be extremely intelligent, leaders need to be ambitious, leaders need to have really, really strong goals, leaders need to be this, leaders need to be that and most of that turns out to be not true.
Eddie Turner:
And you have not only done the research as to what it takes to be a leader including the Become Commitments, starts with Become – Inspire, Engage, Innovate, and Achieve – but you also have research that shows the impact this has in everyday life when leaders lead from a purposeful leadership framework.
Mark Hannum:
Yes. So, when we reintroduce the 360, we put a research question into the 360 for raters only and we asked them to start rating people on “Is the leader you’re our rating highly effective at leadership? – effective, neither effective nor ineffective, ineffective, or highly ineffective.” And we started to improve the 360 based on what we were seeing in terms of the way people rated leaders. So, we started out with 80 items in the 360. We narrowed that down to about 70. We narrowed that again. We rewrote items. We kept refining and refining and refining to get to where the 360 is today, which is a series of about 48 items which all correlate very strongly to what highly effective leaders do.
Eddie Turner:
Excellent. So, Mark, what is the main message you would like to leave every listener to this episode with?
Mark Hannum:
To me, leadership is about bringing a group of people or navigating a context so that people are able to sustain themselves and organize themselves to have a better future. Leadership is not about crunching numbers to make today’s problems go away. Leadership is about building or having leaders that are strong enough in many different ways that they solve the problems of the future. Great leaders navigate the future. That’s my message.
Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. And is there a quote or a piece of advice that you use that helps you to keep leading?
Mark Hannum:
I don’t know that I can boil it down to one particular quote. There’s something that always stands in my mind. It sort of comes from C.S. Lewis and it speaks to the idea of leadership and courage. Leadership, to me, is about basically implementing your values to work on the future. And whenever your values are tested, that requires courage. Every single moment of every single day a leader is being tested to act in a courageous way. Whether it’s a conversation they may have with somebody who’s not doing well, whether it’s a conversation they may have with somebody who thinks that they should be doing something completely different, whether it’s a conversation with a board of directors, whether it’s a conversation with customers, courage is, if you will, the center of leadership. And that whole idea that C.S. Lewis had that you’re constantly being tested every single moment is kind of what always sticks with me that you have to live your values, you have to be authentic, you have to be yourself and that requires minute to minute to minute courage.
Eddie Turner:
Very well said. And that is definitely a message for us all that will help us to keep leading. Where can people learn more about you, Mark?
Mark Hannum:
Well, I think the Become book has a pretty good biography, if you will, of how I came to all of this and sort of what my history is. I have a website that will be coming up in a little bit. I have another book that I’m writing that should be out shortly.
Eddie Turner:
What’s the title.
Mark Hannum:
The title is 19 Observations About Leadership.
Eddie Turner:
Oh, I can’t wait to read it.
Mark Hannum:
So, it’s 19 chapters and it literally comes from all of the work that I did here and it still is very, very much attached to the Purposeful Leadership Model but it’s a story-based book about watching leaders and watching them lead and here are sort of 19 things that you really, really have to understand. And just to give you an idea, one of them is symbolism. Does a leader understand how to get their message across symbolically, not just in words?
Eddie Turner:
Now, how did you rap with the number 19? Usually, we hear about a top 10 or something like that. Why 19?
Mark Hannum:
19 is what I boiled it down to. I have about 25 notebooks and I started going through all of the ideas. And as I started doing all of the work to organize those ideas, I couldn’t break it out of 19. So, it became 19 key ideas that sort of surround purposeful leadership. So, that’s why it’s a strange number.
Eddie Turner:
All right, outstanding. I love it. Well, I’m going to encourage everyone to follow you on LinkedIn, connect with you. You are someone to connect with and get to know. Definitely pick up a copy of Become. And, as I mentioned at the outset, Mark’s been 25 years with Linkage. I just started with Linkage. I am happy to have joined Mark and so many other phenomenal leaders who are committed to changing the face of leadership. You can learn more about Linkage by visiting LinkageInc.com and Mark’s research is available there as well as a lot of other white papers with empirical research about how to lead and other areas of leadership that Linkage offers.
Mark, thank you so much for being a guest on the Keep Leading!® Podcast.
Mark Hannum:
It was my pleasure.
Eddie Turner:
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I am Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.
Thank you for listening to your host Eddie Turner on the Keep Leading!® Podcast. Please remember to subscribe to the Keep Leading!® Podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen. For more information about Eddie Turner’s work, please visit EddieTurnerLLC.com.
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The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator® as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe as they share their journey to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques and insights. For more information visit eddieturnerllc.com or follow Eddie Turner on Twitter and Instagram at @eddieturnerjr. Like Eddie Turner LLC on Facebook. Connect with Eddie Turner on LinkedIn.
