Keep Leading!® Podcast 123 | Design the Work You Love | Ayse Birsel

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speaking.Do you like the work you do? My guest today says you shouldn’t just settle for doing work. You should design your work. In fact, she says you should design the work you love. My guest today is someone I’m extremely excited about. She’s an amazing woman. Her name, Ayse Birsel. Ayse is one of Fast Company’s most Creative People in Business and she’s on the Thinkers 50 Radar List of 30 Management Thinkers Most Likely to Shape the Future of Organizations. She’s the author of the book Design the Life You Love and she’s recognized as the Number One Coach in Life Design in the World.

So, Ayse, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Eddie Turner, such a privilege to be here with you today. Thank you.

Oh, the privilege is mine, the privilege of being able to have you come on the show. I have admired you and your work for a long time and I’ve been wanting to talk to you outside of our normal channels the work that we’ve done but before we get into the work we’ve done, please tell my audience a little bit more about your background.

Of course. So, hello, everyone. I’m Ayse and my name is a Turkish name, a very common Turkish name that’s difficult for many people to say in the States but I grew up in Turkey in a family of lawyers and realized that my passion was about creativity. So, I’m kind of the black sheep of the family. I didn’t go into law. Instead, I went into industrial design, did my undergraduate in Turkey, came to New York to do my Master’s at Pratt Institute with a Fulbright Scholarship and I’ve been here ever since. So, I’m based in New York and I have a design and innovation studio with my partner Bibi Seck in New York and we work with some of the best brands in the world from Amazon to Herman Miller to Target to Toyota, you name it. We’re working together with them and, yeah, bringing products and design strategy and innovation strategy to life. So, that’s my daytime job. And then I also apply the design process we use with all our clients, my design thinking process, deconstruction, reconstruction to help people design their life and design their work, Eddie, just like you said.

Thank you for sharing that but I want to dig into this ideal of design and innovation. When a lot of people say that they’re talking about engineering and they’re talking about bridges, they’re talking about roads, they’re talking about a lot of widgets but what specifically do you design and innovatively work on?

You’re right. The field of design is endless. And so, maybe before I talk about what I design, I should give you a little peek into how I first heard about design, which was in Turkey we had a family friend come to have tea and I was thinking of becoming an architect and he said “Have you heard about industrial design?” and I said no like I had never heard those two words used together before. And because we were drinking tea, he said “Look at this teacup and you see how the edge is curved? That’s because it can fit our lips better. And there’s a handle. It’s there so that we can hold hot liquid in our hands without burning ourselves. And the saucer is there so that if you spill your tea, you’re not going to ruin your mother’s beautiful tablecloth.” And that’s when I fell in love with the human scale of industrial design and I said “That’s what I’m going to do.” And truly, that’s what I’ve been doing for like about 30 years now, designing everything from teacups to office systems to automobiles to toilets, which I’m very happy to add at the end, I’m known as the queen of toilets unofficially in having designed, again, what’s known as unofficially the world’s most comfortable toilet seat. And not every designer can tell you that they’ve done that so.

Well, how about that!

I just wanted to share that.

So, from teacups to toilet seats and everything in between. Fascinating that a teacup led to a 30-year career.

It really did. And can you imagine if that family friend hadn’t come to tea or talked to me about this, I wouldn’t be doing …

Isn’t that something? Queen of toilets. Now, many people may hear that and think “Well, how is that something to be proud of?” What do you mean when you say the world’s most comfortable toilet seat?

I love that question. I’m so glad you asked me that because, again, it gives you a sense of what design is all about. So, the way this whole thing came about is Toto which is the world’s number one bathroom products manufacturer, they’re based in Japan, they hired me to design toilets for them for the American market. And I started thinking about like “What could you do with a toilet seat?” And one of the things that I realized is even when you say those two words together, toilet and seat, the product is really a seat but it’s not designed as a seat. It’s designed as a cover for the ceramic, the china part of the toilet, right? So, most toilet seats, when you sit on them, they bite into your legs and you’re not very comfortable because they’re not ergonomic, they’re not designed for the human body. And so, that was my biggest kind of insight was realizing that in the word ‘toilet seat’, there is a seat and why wouldn’t we design this as a seat except that it has a hole in it. And that changed everything. So, the seat that I designed is actually larger than the toilet itself so that it has ample support for your legs and the back of it is curved so it can kind of support the small of your back and the front of it is curved down so that when you’re backing into it, it doesn’t kind of hit the back of your legs. It’s kind of just like as if you’d sit in a chair, again, except it has a hole in it. And then the other thing about it that is it’s very distinctive, you know it when you see it, but the other piece of it was the comfort of cleaning. For some reason, when I was a kid, I loved cleaning toilets and kind of like maybe in prep for this future work but I always thought a toilet seat should be easy to clean and it never is, right? So, the one that I designed, you can snap off the lid and the seat and wash them under the faucet almost like washing dishes and then snap them back on again. And so, that’s the other side of making something easier for the user so it’s not only comfortable to sit in, it’s also easy to clean. So, those were the two biggest differentiators.

And it became a hit and that’s how you became the queen of toilets.

It became a hit, exactly. It got a lot of press. This was kind of the iconic design that Toto entered the American market with and then from that established themselves. We won all the design awards there was to win and it was widely published and it kind of created a look and feel in terms of Toto’s innovation and design in the States and it’s been going very well since then.

And you also left your mark on the auto industry.

I did. And the auto industry left its mark on me because one of my first automobile projects was with Renault, the French automobile manufacturer. I admired them and I had this dream to work with them. Automobile design is very specialized. So, Renault, they saw my work and my interest and they decided to also hire me but when we were starting the project, I told them “I need somebody from your side, an automobile designer, who could tell me what I can and cannot do.” Here the idea was like they were interested in an outside perspective, somebody who’s not used to designing automobiles and see what I would come up with, which I think is a great way to approach design and innovation but because I requested basically a collaborator or a mentor from their side, they said “Oh, we’re going to send you Bibi Seck and you’re going to love him.” And apparently, they told Bibi “You’re going to go and work with Ayse in New York for like three months,” kind of like a gift to him right, “and you’re going to love her.” So, guess what happened? You know what happened, Eddie.

I do.

I listen to my clients so well that I loved Bibi and we fell in love and then we became partners, we had kids together, our best products. So, that’s the automobile industry, that was my start, and they changed my life as well.

How about that! Absolutely wonderful. And your work is not just in the automotive industry or, as you said, at Amazon or as being the queen of toilets. You’ve left your indelible mark to where your work is permanently found as a part of the collection of the Museum of Modern Art. What’s that like?

Oh, I’m so proud of that. That’s a biggie. And that was because I designed an office system, the Resolve Office System for Herman Miller. And Herman Miller, if you haven’t heard their name, you know them because, this is for everyone in the audience, they’re the makers of the Aeron chair. Almost everyone I know has probably sat in an Aeron chair. So, we designed the Resolve Office System and it really kind of broke the mold on cubicles and was incredibly innovative. And that’s what I have in the MoMA collection in New York.

Fascinating. Now, you went beyond designing products to applying this to designing work we love, designing our lives. Tell us about that transition.

That transition was unexpected and it came about because in 2008 when the economy crashed, we were at the top of our success, working with some of the best companies in the world and I thought “Okay, the economy crashed but that won’t affect us” and I was wrong. And Bibi and I were partners, we had young kids and suddenly all our clients, almost all our clients took their work in-house, which made total sense for them. They were trying to financially be more conservative but it meant that suddenly we found ourselves without any work. And I hadn’t seen this coming. I had uprooted Bibi from his great job at Renault. Once we became partners, he moved to New York and I felt very responsible and also very frustrated because design is what I do best and not to be able to provide for my family through my work. And I went to see, believe me, I went to see headhunters and I’m like “I need a job and I know all about offices and organizations and how people work.” And they were like “Wait, have you ever worked in an office before?” I’m like “No, I’ve always been on my own.” And they were like “No, we can’t find work for you. You might know all about organizations and office but you’ve never been an employee.” So, what happened is that I had about a year where we didn’t have active clients and I didn’t know what to do with myself because design is what I do best. And the person that came to my aid, my help was Leia Kaplan. Leia is one of my dearest friends. She and I have worked together since we were kids like out to school. And she saw the situation I was in and she said “You know, Ayse, why don’t you think about how you think because you think differently?” And that was like a lifeline for me. I thought “Okay, at least Leia still believes that I have something to offer.” And I started thinking about how I think and how I go about a design project and go from what I know today to what I can imagine. And that was the beginning of journeying into my own head, into my own heart and trying to deconstruct how I think. And from that, literally, I developed a design thinking process that I ended up calling Deconstruction Reconstruction. And then when I was done doing that, it had been, like I said, almost a year, I was asked to go to GE and talk with them about our work, which I was very excited about. So, I go and I show all our work to these executives at GE. And at the end, I show them “Here’s our process, Deconstruction Reconstruction.” That was the very first time I showed it outside of my kind of friends group. And they saw that and GE at the time, they were hugely successful and very process oriented. So, they said “That’s what we want.” And that was the beginning of the turning point basically that year where I had been really journeying into my myself and my creativity, resulted in a process and that process changed everything. So, now, starting with GE, they asked us to deconstruct and reconstruct value of design across five of their businesses. And that was a turning point, the beginning of now what we do, which is deconstruct and reconstruct everything from products to systems to design strategy and organizational strategy with our clients.Eddie, there’s another piece to the story and I’ll bring it to designing your work and life. I’ve for the longest time believed that our life is our biggest project. So, when I had my design process, I thought “Huh, this would be an interesting experiment if I could apply this process to my life,” almost like a proof point like “If this process is good enough, we should be able to design our life with it.” And that’s what I did and it started with a workshop that a friend of mine offered me to do. I started with a room full of people and they liked it, they designed their life, they told about it to their friends and then the whole thing kind of took off word of mouth. So, now, this is what I teach thousands of people across the globe from 13 to 90 and more how to design your life and work.

Excellent. You started off in a situation that looked rather bleak.

Very bleak.

Yes. From that was born this new way of applying your thinking because you do think differently. I often say that sometimes our friends in HR and our friends in the recruiting space don’t know how to work with people who think differently, who don’t have that traditional background but really you are the disrupter that knows how to go in and change organizations and you got a chance to prove that by going into GE, one of the most important corporations in the world especially during that time, and apply that concept. And then you start applying it to changing lives. And you documented that in your book. Tell us the full title of your book, please.

So, the book is called Design the Life You Love and the book is all about enticing people into designing an original life for themselves and making it super easy. And what I’m doing is I’m tapping into something that I’ve learned through all these workshops and that is people are extraordinarily creative but like any one of us creatives, they need a process. So, what I do is tap into people’s creativity, often they don’t even know that they have that creativity, and give them a simple proven design thinking process and let them kind of be creative with it. And I haven’t been disappointed once. People are extraordinarily creative every time. That’s what I do and that’s really something I’m very proud of because it’s truly like almost pure design. It’s you, your life and work and the design process. There’s nothing else. And it works.

Wonderful. So, Design the Life You Love: A Step-By-Step Guide to Building a Meaningful Future. And it has over 250 ratings on Amazon, which is not easy to do. So, this book has impacted thousands across the globe.I’m enjoying my conversation with Ayse Birsel as we discuss designing the life you love and we’ll have more with Ayse right after this.

All right. We’re back, everyone. I’m enjoying my fascinating conversation with the amazing Ayse Birsel and we’re talking about how you can design the life you love.Before the break, Ayse, we were discussing this book but then you revealed something to me that I didn’t know. Tell my audience your big news.

Oh yes, everyone, I was telling Eddie that now I have a second book in the works, which will come out next September, so 2022 and that’s Design the Long Life You Love.

Design the Long Life You Love. Excellent. So, more for us to look forward to coming from you and getting where we want to be as leaders.Now, Ayse, you had an impact on thousands of people through these workshops. And there’s one leader who you really had an impact on and it’s changed a life for at least 350 other people. Tell us what happened when Marshall Goldsmith himself attended this workshop.

Yes, that’s how you and I met. So, Marshall Goldsmith is known as the world’s number one leadership coach and he’s amazing. And he and I met and became friends. And when my first book Design the Life You Love was coming out, Marshall was kind enough to say “Hey, Ayse, when your book comes out, why don’t you do a session to kind of promote your book and I’ll invite my friends.” And I thought that’s a fabulous idea. And so, when my book came out, I went back to Marshall and Marshall hadn’t forgotten about it. He was like “I’m all in.” So, we planned this workshop Design the Life You Love to introduce the book to his friends. And if you know Marshall, he has many, many friends. And usually my workshops were like 15 people, 20 people. And then 70 people show up. And we had to kind of turn back some people but what I love about Marshall is not only the way he promotes and helps his friends but also, he was there himself. He could have just set the whole thing out and not show up that but he was there and he did the process. And one of my questions as part of Design Your Life is asking you about who your heroes are. And really the heroes questions, these people can be people you know or you know of but they have qualities, they have things that interest you, inspire you that you take note of. So, I asked Marshall who his heroes were and he said that his heroes were people like Peter Drucker and Frances Hesselbein and Buddha and these were amazing teachers that had taught him everything he knows without asking for anything in return. And then my next question is and was “So, Marshall, what would you do to be more like your heroes?” And Marshall thought and he realized in that moment that he wanted to teach everything he knows to others for free. And so, with that, he started Marshall Goldsmith’s 15 coaches. Originally, he thought “I’ll just teach what I know to 15 people.” And, Eddie, you know the story well. He put an invitation, very informal video online on LinkedIn and he said “I want to teach everything I know to 15 people who are interested for free. Send me a note on LinkedIn or an email and.” 17,000 people later and counting, Marshall launched 15 coaches, then became 25, 50, 100 and now we stopped counting. And this is a group of thought leaders, executives, coaches, CEOs, authors that are learning from Marshall and we have a beautiful community and both Eddie and I are part of 100 coaches. And the only thing that Marshall asks of us is to teach what we know to other people for free when our time comes.

Yes, absolutely. So, your workshop about Design the Life You Love led to the world’s number one executive coach and number one leadership thinker analyzing his own life and saying he would start this program that is now just known as the 100 coaches but we’re way over that now but it started because of Ayse Birsel. And it’s an amazing group. If anyone wants to know about it, go to 100Coaches.com and see those executives that Ayse talked about. Some people are just corporate executives, others are coaches, others are authors and all of us are part of the family and that’s how Ayse and I got to know each other. And I just really just became fascinated by your work on one level. And then you and I started working on a project when you applied your patented process, your trademark process Deconstruct Reconstruct, your DERE process when a pivotal event happens in the United States when you pulled us together and said “Let’s deconstruct reconstruct racism.” Can you share that with us?

Oh yes, that was momentous. So, this is about a year and a half ago, I guess, and Black Lives Matter is happening and I was feeling very helpless in terms of my contribution, how to make a difference. And I reached out to one of our mutual friends, Eddie, Dr, Terry Jackson and said “Terry, I don’t know what to do. This is so much bigger than me.” And Terry said “Well, Ayse, all you need to do is deconstruct racism and reconstruct love. Isn’t that what you do?” And I wrote him back and I said “Yes, my friend. Would you help me put this together?” and he was absolutely. So, it was him, you Eddie and then our friend Nankhonde in Africa and then our friend [Inaudible] and I and over, I think, two months we met once a week and I would share my tools with you and we truly deconstructed racism to reconstruct love, as Terry would say, in the context of humanity.

Indeed. And so, I’m sharing that to say that you have applied this design thinking, this innovative process to not just physical products that are changing the world and literally sitting in museums and that people are literally sitting on to changing lives and impacting people at the highest level across the globe and solving real world problems. And I think that’s what makes you so extraordinary, Ayse, and why Thinkers50 has said the things about you that they’ve said and why Inc and Fortune and so many others have lauded you and deservedly so. And so, I’m just so happy that my listeners have been able to learn from you and learn about you today.What’s the main message you’d like to leave with those listening?

Thank you. The main message I’d love to leave everyone with is you’re all extraordinarily creative and I would love to show all of you how to deconstruct reconstruct your work and your life or a topic that’s of interest to you so that you can break your own preconceptions and then put it back together to get you closer to something that gives you joy. That would be my proposal, Eddie. And I’m actually talking about this in my virtual tea today. So, everyone, you’re also invited to have tea with me. Every Wednesday at 5 p.m. Eastern we do a virtual tea Design the Life You Love and today is number 76. We started this through COVID as a way to help our community and together decided that every week we would use one of the tools from Deconstruct Reconstruct, my process, and with that, design our life and work through COVID. And we’ve been doing it for a year and a half now and it has kind of created an incredible community of people who come from all walks of life across the globe and we think creatively together, collaborate. It has become the beginning of new friendships, new collaborations. And actually, today, I’m going to talk about, if anybody is interested, just to give them an idea, today we’re going to talk about creating your own roadmap at a time where there are no road maps for what we’re going through right now through the pandemic. And that’s really the goal of the virtual teas which are completely free, complementary and all that’s required of you is to show up for an hour with an open mind and optimism and empathy to try out this design thinking process.

Thank you, Ayse. And here on the Keep Leading!® Podcast, in addition to the wonderful content you’ve already shared, I’d love to know the best piece of advice or the quote that you live by as a leader.

The quote that came to my mind in the moment is the one that I look at every day and it’s from our dear friend Alan Mulally, the former CEO of Boeing and Ford Motor Company. He saved both of those companies from bankruptcy. And Alan is part of a 100 Coaches and his quote is “Love and be loved and in that order.” To me, that’s my go-to quote – “Love and be loved and in that order.”

Excellent. Thank you so much, Ayse. That is good advice for leaders indeed. And for those who want to reach out to get to know you, stay connected with you, how can they get to know more about you?

So, everyone you can reach me, the easiest way is to go to AyseBirsel.com/Newsletter. This way you can get on our newsletter, know what I’m up to and then get invitations to our teas and salons and events.

Fantastic. I’m going to put the URL to your website and to all your social media links on my website, the KeepLeadingPodcast.com website as well as in the show notes so everyone can connect with you on LinkedIn, follow you on Twitter, like you on Facebook and follow you on Insta.

I love that. And, Eddie, for everyone who’s going to AyseBirsel.com/Newsletter, they’ll also get a complimentary PDF on The Heroes Exercise that changed Marshall’s life.

Now, that’s something worth having.Ayse, thank you for being a guest and thank you for helping us to understand how to design the life we love as a leader here on the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Eddie, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. And I’m delighted to be part of your podcast and your community. Thank you.

Thank you.And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I am Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.