Keep Leading!® Podcast 149 | Tamsen Webster | Say What They Can't Unhear

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Keep Leading!® Podcast 149 | Tamsen Webster | Say What They Can’t Unhear

Tamsen Webster
Master message designer and Author of “Say What They Can’t Unhear”

Say What They Can’t Unhear

Episode Summary
**Change is inevitable—but successful change isn’t.**

Every leader faces the challenge of driving transformation, whether it’s shifting organizational culture, implementing new strategies, or inspiring teams to embrace innovation. Yet most change initiatives fail not because of poor planning, but because of poor communication.

Join host Eddie Turner on the Keep Leading!® Podcast as he sits down with Tamsen Webster, renowned message designer and author of “Say What They Can’t Unhear.” Tamsen reveals why traditional persuasion tactics fall short and shares her proven framework for creating messages that stick.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

Why rational arguments alone don’t drive lasting change
How to identify the deep-seated beliefs that fuel resistance—and transform them into allies
The secret to crafting communications that people can’t ignore or forget
Practical strategies for becoming the kind of change agent your organization needs

As Tamsen puts it, lasting change happens when you align your message with what people already believe—then show them a new path forward. Don’t just communicate change; make it irresistible.

**Ready to say what they can’t unhear? Listen now.**

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Bio
Part message designer, part English-to-English translator, part magpie, Tamsen Webster helps leaders craft their case for large-scale change. In addition to her work in and for major organizations such as Harvard Medical School, Fidelity Investments, and Klaviyo, she’s a judge and mentor for the Harvard Innovation Labs, a professional advisor at the Martin Trust Center for MIT Entrepreneurship, and has spent over 10 years as the Idea Strategist for one of only nine legacy-level TEDx events in the world. She was named to the Thinkers50 Radar in 2022 and is the author of two books, Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible and Say What They Can’t Unhear: The 9 Principles of Lasting Change. She lives in Boston with her husband, two sons, and two brindle Greyhounds, Hazel and Walnut.

Website
tamsenwebster.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamsenwebster/

Favorite Leadership Quote
“You can’t control people’s opinions of you, only the experiences you create.”

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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Keep Leading Live. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate their impact and help them drive results. I do that through the power of professional speaking, executive coaching, and masterful facilitation. Today, I’m streaming on YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And I always say I’m excited, but I am really, really excited about my guest today. So, if you’re not already following her on social media, I’m going to encourage you to follow her on social media, and I’ll be sharing her website throughout the session. Let us know you’re here by telling us in the comments that you’re here, and feel free to ask a question or just share your reaction to what you’re hearing, and we will make you a part of the discussion. Uh, the platforms don’t always send me all the comments and reactions, but the ones that I do see, I will absolutely entertain. Okay? So, looking forward to having you be a part of this discussion. All leaders are required at some point in their career to lead change. Be it a merger or an acquisition or a new company mandate, whatever it is, you’re going to be asked to lead change in one form or another. To do this, leaders need to have strong influencing skills and strong communication skills if they’re going to be effective. And to do this, especially when you’re communicating, you must do as my guest today says, say what they can’t unhear. My guest today is Tamson Webster. Tamson is the author of the new book by that name, Say What They Can’t Unhear. But let me tell you a little bit about Tamson Webster. Tamson is a master message designer who helps leaders craft their case for large-scale change. She’s worked for major corporations such as Harvard Medical School and Fidelity Investments. She’s been a judge and a mentor for the Harvard Innovation Labs, a professional advisor at the Martin Trust Center for MIT Entrepreneurship, and has spent over 10 years as the ideal strategist for one of the only nine legacy-level TEDx events in the world. She was named to the Thinkers50 Radar list in 2022. And for those who don’t know, this is a really big deal. And she’s the author of two books, the one I just mentioned, as well as her first book, Red Thread: Make Your Ideals Irresistible. Tamson, welcome to Keep Leading Live.

Tamson Webster:
Hi.

Tamson Webster:
I’m so excited to be here and to chat with you, Eddie, especially since you are all about accelerating impact. I am all about figuring out how we can do the same thing, but from the lens of how do we accelerate understanding and adoption of new ideas that lead to change. So, this is going to be good.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely. I have wanted to interview you forever. And uh this is interesting because the last time I saw you, it was in November. Uh you were on the Thinkers50 Radar list in 2022. I saw you at the one in November 2023.

Tamson Webster:
Yes, yes. We saw—last time we saw each other in person was in London. So, doesn’t that sound very fancy? Yeah.

Eddie Turner:
We were geeking and out at this, and for those who don’t know about Thinkers50, it’s the Oscars for management and leadership thinking. And so uh that’s why I said for Tamson to be on that radar list is a really, really big deal. And so uh tell us what I missed when I uh and I introduced you and I talked about your uh just a little bit about who you are.

Tamson Webster:
Yeah. Uh, what did you miss? Well, I think that um I mean it’s well, I’ve been doing it for a really long time in one way or another, but not necessarily just messaging and branding. I’ve been very, very interested in transformational change for a very long time. And it has always been finding this intersection between the individual and the organizational. Uh I am of the opinion that anything that is going to happen at the organizational level, particularly when it comes to change, has to happen at the individual level first. And given the time that I’ve spent in change management and in change communications, I feel that sometimes we overlook that individual aspect, and we focus so much on what the what does this mean for the organization and why does this make sense for the organization, that we end up missing making the case to the individuals that have to make the change happen in the first place. So, uh it’s just that’s it is a deep, deep passion of mine. I I I’ve been on that one level for years uh figuring out how do we do this. Um I still have much more to learn, but it is just it has just been an enduring passion of mine.

Eddie Turner:
And it shows. As I listen to you talk and it just radiates your excitement, your passion about this subject uh just really uh radiates from you. And certainly it it radiates from your new book. Tell us about uh the reason you wrote the book. And before you say that, let me just tell you, I had a call this morning with a client. And we were talking about something completely different, and it led me back to talking about you. And in fact, I was going to interview you. And the moment I said the title of your book, he dropped what he was doing and immediately started writing it down. He says, “I’m buying that book.”

Tamson Webster:
Oh, yay.

Eddie Turner:
So tell us, say what they can’t unhear, the nine principles of lasting change. Uh what made you write this book?

Tamson Webster:
Uh, you know, what made me write this book was uh multiple levels of frustration. I I don’t want it to sound like a bad thing, but it was um frustration that’s bounded or that that’s actually driven by optimism and idealism in some way. And that is, you know, I believe that we’re surrounded by change all the time. I believe that there’s amazing ideas that are out there. In my work, I see a huge number of just truly novel transformational ideas. And I also see persistently, you know, just this persistent feeling that a lot of the advice out there, a lot of the the things that we accept to be conventional wisdom about persuasion, influence, change, either isn’t working for people because it’s not actually working. It’s not it’s not producing the results that they’re looking for, or it may be producing works that they’re that they’re looking for, but it doesn’t feel right to them. In other words, there’s a there’s uh sometimes an undercurrent of what can feel to people like manipulation or coercion uh when it comes to persuasion and influence. And it felt like people just didn’t know what to do about that. And so between that feeling of like, how do we how do I take what I’ve learned and what I know to help close that gap, that frustration about there not being information out there. And at the same time, saying, well, I’ve spent all of this time, like 20 years, kind of and 30 years really, collecting from all over the place, almost like a magpie. That’s how I think of myself sometimes. Um collecting this information from other fields of practice that understand how does change happen? How does real change happen? How do you communicate change? So think about like psychotherapy and psychology and cognitive behavior, neuroscience, and behavioral economics. And as I’m learning recently, adult education, they’ve cracked these codes. And so I really wanted to take what I’ve learned and what other other areas of practice know to be true, evidence-based, about how is it and what is it that we need to understand about people? What is it we need to understand about communication in order for us to be able to not just make a compelling case for change, but make one that is so resonant for other people that they believe and continue to believe enough on in it in order to act, and not just once, but to keep acting, to sustain that change. So, I just I wanted to fill that gap.

Eddie Turner:
And you do that very well throughout this book, which we’re going to talk about. I I do want to point out something that you mentioned that others who don’t know you won’t know. You made this reference to what you’re learning in adult education, adult learning theory. And you’re learning that because you’ve been accepted into a prestigious program. Tell us about that.

Tamson Webster:
Yes. Oh goodness. Um I would not necessarily have done all of these things in the same year. Uh but yes, I am part of the 29th cohort of the Ages program at Teachers College, Columbia, which is a uh which is an educational doctorate program um focused on organizational learning and leadership.

Eddie Turner:
I can’t wait to start calling you Dr. Webster when you finish this prestigious Ivy League program.

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, it is I got to tell you, Eddie, like I I have not been in school for 25 years, and I am it is so much work, and I love it. I my brain is on fire in all the best ways. Uh I keep thinking to myself like, why don’t more people know about this, particularly in business and in leadership? Um you know, just as a small example, I mean most adult educators see themselves as change agents. And think about how often in business we think we can say, well, we’re looking for change agents. And I’m saying, well, how is it why is it that business has not paid attention to all of this work that’s happened in adult learning? Because that whole field of practice is about helping people understand things they don’t currently understand. And tell me any aspect of leadership, of professional life, that doesn’t involve understanding how we get people to understand new new things and new information. Not just persuasion, but because we can’t get to any of that if people don’t understand it in the first place. So, it is just so much fun, and I’m I’m loving it.

Eddie Turner:
Congratulations. That’s just excellent. And you’re right, often times people say they want change agents. They say that, and it just sounds nice, but often they they screen out the change agents at the resume level. Because the person has done a little bit of this and a little bit of that. They say, oh, I want the person with this continuum. They don’t recognize that the person has done a little bit of this, a little bit of that, that’s your change agent. That’s the person that’s going to approach and bring new insights.

Tamson Webster:
Yes. Well, and then now you’re tapping into another thing, which is that I think that sometimes the case for change that we need to make is the case of case for the change that we ourselves as an individual, you know, potential person working for or with an organization or a client, can bring. And I think that sometimes it’s being able to make those connections between what could on the outside look like hop, hop, hop, hop from one place to another and go, hmm, where’s that? Because I mean if you look at my background, people are like, what is going on with you? Right? So, because I went from I was a change management consultant. that’s what was my first job out of grad school, first time around. Uh, first job out of grad school, and then I went to work at a museum uh for exhibition planning, and then I went to work at a performing arts college in marketing communications, then I worked in fundraising communication strategy at Harvard Medical School, then I went over to agencies, worked at brand strategy, then I worked at advertising agency in like social media community development, and then I worked at a sales messaging boutique firm. So, people will be like, you are nuts. Why would we hire you? Um but I can look at it and say, every single time, I was all the way throughout my career was that I was just absolutely laser-focused on the question of what is it that somebody needs to hear about something to recognize the power in it and act on it? Right? So, whether that is like, oh, it’s an organizational change, or, oh, I want to go see this exhibition, or, oh, I want to go to this college and not that one, or, oh, yes, I need to give money to Harvard. Who thinks that? Very few people. Like Harvard doesn’t need money, right? So, we had to figure out a different way to ask for it. And so by being able to make that connection, and really that’s tied into everything else that I’m that I’m saying in this book, we we can help people understand. And I think so often we expect people to make these connections, like if we just give them enough information, then they’ll figure it out for themselves. Sometimes they will, but because of how our brains work, how our brains are always constantly trying to fit all of these things together and and cause and effect relationships and in stories really, that if we don’t help guide that narrative, if we don’t help guide the way to interpret all of these people pieces of information, people will often either ignore it because it doesn’t make sense and they’re too busy, or they’ll start to fill in the missing pieces with their own previously existing beliefs, desires, opinions, and attitudes. And that’s a lot of times how you can get people who are staunchly opposed to your change. Had they just heard a little bit different information or heard it presented in a slightly different way, maybe they wouldn’t be just full of support, but maybe they wouldn’t be against it. So, this is part of what I’m really passionate about when it comes to getting these things out there, because if for a change to fail at the words used to present it in the first place, that’s a solvable problem. And I don’t want to leave a solvable problem out there on the table. So, that’s what I want to do. Like, we need to fix this, and we can.

Eddie Turner:
And to your point that, hey, sometimes they have to hear different information or hear it a different way, it requires persuasion. And you mentioned earlier on that when people hear that word persuasion, they feel that they’re going to be manipulated or going to be coerced. And when you address this in your book, you use a nice little word for it. You say they feel ick.

Tamson Webster:
Ick. Ick. Yeah, stick and ick. That’s that’s basically book is a is a is my own manifesto. It’s a Tamba-festo. Um for for persuasion without the ick or the stick is like as I like to say. Without the stick, so without like, you know, threats, uh leveraging pain, consequence negative consequences, and without the ick that feels like, you know, that just I don’t I don’t like how this goes. It’s not aligned with how how how we want to conduct ourselves. And we should pay attention to that, or I believe we should pay attention to that, because that really gets to part of what I’m what I’m expressing and what other fields of practice know, that is we focus so much on what we want people to do and what the outcomes we think will come from that. Um and you know, thankfully Simon Sinek got us to start thinking about making sure we’re articulating why we’re doing all of this. And if we think about and if you agree that really what makes you stick with something, let’s just say like giving a an organization or a brand your business, has as much to do with how they do their business as why, then I, you know, where I come and land on this is that it that’s where we need to be talking not just about why we do what we do, but why we do it in that particular way. In other words, what’s the why behind our how? And if we can get that out, that that a lot of times either can clear up a lot of confusion right from the get-go, or it can get us, particularly as leaders who are almost always pressed for time, much more quickly to surface exactly where there’s misalignment or where there’s misunderstanding. And I would much rather identify that right up front in the first introduction of a case for change, than to be halfway through implementation and realize again that there was a solvable problem about what people believed or what they did or didn’t feel was consistent with either their own identity or with what they perceived to be the identity of the organization.

Eddie Turner:
Yes. And you know, I’m I’m an old guy, so I remember the David Letterman days of the top 10 that he would rattle through, right? As professional speakers, you and I believe in the rule of three. Here are the three concepts I’m going to deliver that I want people to walk away with. But in your book, you give us the nine principles.

Tamson Webster:
I know.

Tamson Webster:
Well, it started as 18. Um and then I realized there wasn’t as many Well, and then they started then I realized that I wanted to be friendly to people. Um and that a lot of those differences were such small shades of difference that they weren’t going to make it it it made more sense to group them. Uh, there’s a practical reason for nine. Uh readers prefer odd numbers rather than even. Um and so we landed on nine because in in essence it was three groups of three. So, there are three things that speak to the the first three principles roughly speak to where is it that we often go wrong? Uh what are some of the most kind of the principles that explain a lot of the most common uh pitfalls of it. Um and generally that can be summarized as it it it’s their decision that matters, not yours. Um it’s their outlook that matters, not yours, if you’re trying to get them to buy in to get on board. The next three are about where this in a lot of ways departs from conventional wisdom in in some pretty significant ways. Um in other words, what are the what are the key differences behind persuading for action, by which I mean short-term action, which there’s plenty of information about, uh and what’s the difference between what are the principles that support persuading for long-term change, which is really what this what this book is about. Sustained action that comes from internal motivation. And then the last three uh are very much about what are the specific things that you as the steward of that change, as the person trying to create the conditions for that change, what are the specific roles that you need to take or to play in order to maximize the potential success of your case and the change.

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. Well, thank you for explaining that. I like that. You have three groups of three.

Tamson Webster:
I have three groups of three. Yeah.

Eddie Turner:
Should they be taken in any specific order or uh people can jump around to the one that matters most to them?

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, I wrote it in such a way that people could jump around. That was my that was my plan. I mean they are organized in a certain order. Uh they do build on each other if you were to read them front to back and I had a I had a fun debate originally with my editors about why I wanted to start with the first principle, which is that change isn’t just an action, it’s a reaction. Um they wanted me to start originally with every decision has a story, which is currently number two. Uh but the reason why I went with that one as the first one is because I think we often miss the fact that when information is new, so back to this idea about you know, helping people understand something, that when you’re the person who is leading this change, the first source of information about this change is you the leader. And that when we are changing something, it is as the principle says, it’s not just an action. It’s not something that you do, but you do it in response to something else. And while we can’t control somebody’s reaction, we can control what we’re putting into the experience of hearing about this change and experiencing it for the first time, that can fundamentally set whether or not we are going to be successful with this change ever. And it really starts with the first introduction. So, I wanted to set that as the like first stake in the ground to say change is a reaction. I love that.

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, it it is. It’s a reaction to a situation, but it’s also a reaction to you know, your how does something feel? And I don’t necessarily mean like emotionally feel. I mean we we check what we do based on does it make sense? By which we often mean intellectual sense, you know, does do I see this follow? But but we don’t stick with something unless it makes sense, right? To our like gut, um to our identities, to our to our faiths sometimes, to our beliefs, to our values, to our principles. I mean you can think about this even in terms of whether or not you, you know, stay with an organization, right? I I know I have left organizations because I there was you know, eventually I realized there was a fundamental misalignment between how they did business and how I believed like what I believed was the was the right way, what like what was right. And we all have our own opinions about that. But again, it comes down to like, why do we do things in a particular way? That’s based on our outlooks, our our philosophies, our these personal narratives, or as I’m, you know, I’m increasingly kind of there’s a new idea forming in my head around this idea of like narrative-centered leadership. What is the narrative not just of an individual leader or an individual team member, but what’s the narrative of the organization? And how does that like what influence do we play in that? Because all of those things really have to align in order for in order for any kind of change, any kind of shift to make sense. It has to make sense for me, it has to make sense for you, it has to make sense in context of the organization, and it has to make sense in context of what’s happening in the world right now.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. Well, let me take a quick pause here to acknowledge my sponsor. It’s a if a single employee’s indecision can cost an organization between $10,000 and $1 million, imagine the potential financial impact when more individuals are then added to this equation. It can spiral out of control very quickly. Decision X, therefore, is a bespoke on-demand service that this is designed to help your leaders overcome their indecision and move forward with their work. Visit papionmdc and discover how you can help your team get unstuck, shift perspective, and advance today. And you can see their website there um the graphic www.papionmdc.ca. So, we want to remind you that if you are tuned into our session, go ahead and let us know you’re here. Let us know how you’re reacting as we’re talking to Tamson Webster, the master message designer and author of Say What They Can’t Unhear. Now, Tamson, I want to pick back up on the thread you were talking about there uh because one of the points you make in your book that I really loved, in addition to every change is a reaction, is you make the point that every decision has a story. And I read that and I went, I love that. That’s true.

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, that’s true.

Eddie Turner:
So tell me more.

Tamson Webster:
Yes. Well, that was oh, it’s I went through uh man, I I went just a side note. I went through a lot, like probably where I spent the most time in the initial drafting of the book was just how did I state those original nine those nine principles, because that’s that’s the reaction I wanted was that that people would go, that’s true. Um so every decision has a story. Uh it’s alternative uh it’s alternative phrasing also in the book is that every action ends an internal argument about why a decision does or doesn’t make sense. Meaning, whether we realize it or not, our brain is constantly saying, do this, do that, because it has already come to some conclusion about because this is who you are, or because this will have this effect, or this happened because this happened, or this happen this will happen if you do this. And so these aren’t necessarily once upon a time stories, but they do share a lot in common with those once upon a time stories, and that’s what my first book was about. But the whole philosophy of, you know, this this principle and really that first book was that this is going to happen no matter what. Like the decision to change, the decision to act is going to have a story in somebody’s mind behind it. And whatever somebody is doing right now, they are doing because they have a story for it that makes perfect sense to them. So, if you want them to do something different, if you want them to think something different, we have to build a story that makes even more sense to them than the story they’re telling themselves right now. But that’s not going to happen by us inserting our reasoning into that. We have to build the story they would tell themselves about why this makes sense. And you know, it comes through in the overarching ideas behind the book, but what research shows and what my experience shows and what I’ve seen work is that the best way to build a story that someone will tell themselves, even about something new, is to anchor that story, is to build that story with elements that are quite old to the person that you’re talking to, where in other words, it’s we’re anchoring that story, we’re anchoring this in something that somebody already wants, something that they actively and knowingly want and don’t currently have. We are crafting and and grounding that argument based on principles that we know we share with that that person or that audience, you know, our team that we’re talking to. And so when we do that, when you marry the fact that every decision has a story and the stories we agree with are based on beliefs we already have, then we can really see quite quickly that the the best way to build buy-in for change is to build that story based on things that people are already bought into. And so in essence, the book is very much just examining that concept from all of these different perspectives. Um but that’s really what it comes down to is that we’re giving them a story. We’re making sure that we have all the elements of that internal story that’s going to help it make sense to them, and we’re not only giving them all the elements, we are we are tailoring those elements so that we don’t just get the understanding and interest that a story brings, but we’re getting the agreement and the alignment that principles and belief bring. And that’s where that long-term change comes from.

Eddie Turner:
And that’s what we want at the end of the day.

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, that’s what we want at the end of the day is a is an argument as a story as a case for change that when you say it, it it it comes across as unexpectedly obvious, right? In other words, it’s not necessarily something they thought about, but now that you explain it, you’re like, well, that’s true, or gosh, yeah, I don’t know why I didn’t think about it that way before. Um but so much about how we present a change isn’t set up to do that. Either because we don’t give people the elements they need to construct that story. We focus only on the change, on the answer that we have, but not on what question it answers for the our stakeholders and the people we’re talking to. Or we present those or sometimes we’re just like, it’s going to achieve this thing, and then we kind of hide what it is that we’re actually asking them to do. Or sometimes we do give them both pieces, but we don’t give them the connective, you know, the rest of the story, which is really the argument that says, well, if we want this and we agree that these other things are true, then, thanks to logic, thanks Aristotle and our brains, we will say, well, then yeah, that that that makes sense. So, we’ve we’ve got to make sure all those pieces are there. And a lot of times what we’re trying to do instead is actually replace people’s beliefs. We’re trying to get them to want something that they don’t currently want, either that change itself or what we say it’s going to bring, or we’re trying to get them to believe something that they do not currently fundamentally believe and may never fundamentally believe. Yes. And if those if any of those conditions are present, then then we’re not going to get that it’s not going to make sense to them. They’re not going to act, at least not on their own volition, and they’re certainly not going to keep acting in a way that is truly sustainable for them or for the organization.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed. Well, Tamson, I have enjoyed our conversation today. Can you tell me the main message that you would love like our listeners to walk away from this conversation with?

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, I think the main message I want to to to give across here is that the that instead of asking for leaps of faith from our audience and asking them to assume the risk of change, which is usually what what happens when as leaders we ask our team members or stakeholders to change. So, instead of asking for those leaps of faith, I encourage everyone to build bridges of belief. Find those places where we can secure agreement on shared desires, shared beliefs, shared principles in service of not just what’s best for the organization, but what’s best for all the individuals that are involved.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. And on the Keep Leading podcast, I always ask, what is a quote or words of of wisdom that you use to help you keep leading?

Tamson Webster:
Yeah, I this one goes way back. I I should look up and I don’t remember what year this movie is from, but it was a it’s a quote from uh one of the Australian director Baz Luhrmann’s first movies. It was this bananas movie called Strictly Ballroom. Uh but one of one of the quotes from that book, it stuck with me for a very long time afterwards was that a life lived in fear is a life half lived. And so, you know, sometimes we you know, we face things that are scary and you know, as I mentioned in um in the book and part of the reason why I’m so interested in transformational change is that I had a I had a panic disorder for 17 years. So, when I first heard that, this whole idea of a life lived in fear is a life half lived, it became something I couldn’t unhear. And it really set me on a path of saying, well, how can I not only live my life in such a way where I get to live the full life without that fear, um but it continues to this day as being something that helps me keep leading because it it reminds me that I am not someone who was willing to not do something simply because there’s something about it that scares me. So, helps me make sure that I keep going even even in the face of fear.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you for sharing that uh with us and that gives hope to others who’ve gone through something similar. Well, I’m sharing across the bottom of the screen that if they want to learn more about you, they can visit Tamsonwebster.com to learn more about you, connect with Tamson on her website, on her social media channels. She’s everywhere, ladies and gentlemen. And certainly get your copy of Say What They Can’t Unhear: The Nine Principles of Lasting Change. Tamson, thank you for being with us and helping us understand how we can help people keep leading.

Tamson Webster:
Ah, it’s been a pleasure, Eddie. Thank you so much.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not a garment that we uh put on and take off. Leadership is something we must be at our core and allow it to emanate in all that we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.