Eddie Turner:

Okay, we are live. So, I want to say hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep LIVE. Keep Leading LIVE plus the Leading Keep Leading!® Podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of facilitation, executive and leadership coaching, and professional speaking.

Today we are streaming live on YouTube and Facebook as we do every Monday at 1:10 p.m. Central Standard Time. Please let us know you’re here. Drop a note in the comment section so that we know you’re here.

In fact, already, before I can even get started, it looks like David Banks has joined us. David Banks has joined from YouTube. Thank you, David, for joining and letting us know you’re here.

So, please, if you’re here with us, do like David. Let us know you’re here, tell us where you’re from and if you have a question for my esteemed guest today, please, don’t hesitate to let us know what your questions are.

If you’re not already following Vincent Phipps and myself, please do so on social media and hit the like button. Hit the like button, share with your friends, open up another browser window, share with your friends so they can join and be a part of this as well.

All right. And it looks like I can’t even get to the introductions. And here we go. We got Uncle Wayne here. I guess that’s your Uncle Wayne.

Vincent Phipps:

He’s everybody’s Uncle Wayne, Eddie.

Eddie Turner:

All right, he’s everybody’s uncle Wayne. Wayne Brown in Chattanooga has joined us. Thank you much, very much. And we also have Liam Gowen from Atlanta, Georgia. Thank you for joining and being a part of this broadcast.

All right, we’re off to a great start already.

Vincent Phipps:

No, we’ll continue.

Eddie Turner:

I see. Okay, fantastic.

So, yes, share this with your friends. Let them know that they can come and be a part of this show live. This is a live stream but it will also be a podcast that we release in another two months or so where you can play this on a regular podcast wherever you download your podcast.

Now, let me tell you about today’s special guests who I’m super excited about. I met my guest today at one of the National Speakers Association’s conferences. He has a personality that is larger than life. I mean, he truly lights up every room he walks in and he keeps you nappy. And so, I can’t even talk about him without laughing myself. I did not know he had a book. And I saw recently that he has a book and the title of the book is Lead Out Loud. I had two reactions. The first reaction was “I wish I had thought of this title.” The second reaction was “I must get him on Keep Leading LIVE. And so, my special guest today is the amazing Vincent Phipps.

Now, let me tell you a little bit about Mr. Vincent Phipps. Vincent has a passion for amplifying the lives of others by improving their interpersonal communication skills. Vincent seeks to engage his audiences as the Attitude Amplifier, using his high energy, expertise and interactive style. Vincent is distinguished with having earned the highest speaking credential in the speaking industry. He is a certified speaking professional better known as a CSP with the National Speakers Association and he’s rated one of the top 1% of the best motivational speakers and trainers in the world.

So, I am just thrilled to have with me today Vincent Ivan Phipps. Welcome to Keep Leading LIVE.

Vincent Phipps:

Eddie, brother, I just have you travel with me? Brother, that was fantastic. Thank you, Eddie. And for those that do not know, let me share with you, Eddie, a congratulation because you too are now a recipient of the CSP certification. So, congratulations to you too, sir.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you but I’m not listed as the world’s number one, 1%, motivational speaker.

Vincent Phipps:

I don’t know how to do that. I’m not going to argue. I love you.

Eddie Turner:

I love you back. Congratulations.

Now, I’m going to let people know I’m excited to have you. We’re going to have a good time today. I had no idea you were wearing red. I’m wearing red. This was not coordinated.

Vincent Phipps:

Red and blue!

Eddie Turner:

Yeah, red and blue. This is a blue shirt. The camera is going to show it as well. So, I don’t want folks thinking some kind of secret code. It just happened.

Vincent Phipps:

The secret code is excellence in [inaudible][06:19]. That’s the code.

Eddie Turner:

So, tell us about the book well. I am all about leadership. This is the Keep Leading!® Podcast and I love the concept of leading out loud. Where did that come from?

Vincent Phipps:

Well, I appreciate you asking, sir. This is the copy of the book Lead Out Loud and it constitutes an ideology of how I view leadership when I do my workshops, coaching or my keynotes, Eddie.

When most people think of a leader, they think of the biggest voice in the room or the largest personality or the one who is the most charismatic or the person who is the most polished and those are leadership misconceptions. Behavioral science will tell us that 54% of the population are not even extroverts. They’re introverted people. And being a person who is outgoing, upbeat and energetic, they may associate that with leadership but the truth is, Eddie, leadership has nothing to do with how loud you are or how big your ego is. If you have the title of a manager, somebody else gave you that title and they have to follow you because of a positional status but when you are a leader, people have to choose to follow you and there’s nothing you can do to make them choose. They have to make that decision on their own. And when you lead out loud, your actions are what shows other people. It is what you do, how you treat people, how you answer questions, how you deal with tough times. And even though you may be a quiet in your demeanor person or you may be outgoing, when you lead out loud, your actions, your leadership attributes, that’s what people recognize. You could be a quiet person or an outgoing person but when you lead with authenticity, you’ll always lead out loud.

Eddie Turner:

Outstanding. So, you don’t have to be an extrovert to be able to lead out loud. Anyone can lead out loud.

Vincent Phipps:

Absolutely, sir, anybody. And what people are afraid to do is to accept those positions of leadership. They think they need a title or a certain number of years of experience. And when your actions are enough that you don’t have to say as much, that makes you an even more effective leader and people will distrust what you say but they have to respect what you do.

Eddie Turner:

I like that. Very good.

Lauren Sanders has just joined us. She agrees with you. She says “So true.”

And John Bentley has joined us. John says hello. So, hello to you, John. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate that.

Vincent Phipps:

John is a dear friend out of Alabama, Eddie. And he is one of the people I’ve had the honor of working with in the Pro Speakers Kit program. And John also has his own keynote in the professional speaker, transform …

Help me out, John. Transform to Live? Is that right, John?

He is authentic in terms of his leadership, a phenomenal speaker. I’ve had the honor of doing events with John and he is fantastic.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful.

Vincent Phipps:

Transform to Inspire. Boom! Got you, John.

Eddie Turner:

You got it. Excellent.

So, why is it important right now more than ever, Vincent, for leaders to lead out loud from wherever they are no matter who they are?

Vincent Phipps:

What we’re dealing with right now, including COVID-19, including the inundation of social media and also being in a transition of uncertainty with our economy and with our professionalism, Eddie, what people need to do is they need to value that it’s better to be accountable than it is to be likeable.

Eddie Turner:

Better to be accountable than likeable.

Vincent Phipps:

Yes, sir. People are too afraid of telling the truth, hurting people’s feelings or giving someone constructive criticism. So, they try to keep everything vanilla. They don’t want anything rocky. They don’t want to rub anybody the wrong way. So, we’ve developed a very copacetic, “don’t make anybody mad” mentality.

Power to Transform. Thank you, John.

And as a result, people aren’t leading. Leaders aren’t always saying what you want to hear. Leaders don’t always say things that are popular. Leaders don’t even say the things that you feel good. Look at our most revolutionary leaders such our John F. Kennedys, our Malcolm X’es, our Dr. Kings, our Barack Obamas. They said some pretty controversial stuff but they meant it and they followed with authenticity. And what people are missing right now, Eddie, is that people are too afraid to be offend and stand up for something. So, everything is neutral. Leaders don’t always just go neutral. They pick a side. They’re clear that they want people to be respected no matter what your race or color. They want certain people to make more money no matter how much experience you have. What we need to do as leaders right now is to forget about how many likes or clicks we get, forget about how many “Thank you” cards we get …

Eddie Turner:

Except for today. Right now, I’m very [inaudible][11:30] about the number of likes and clicks.

Vincent Phipps:

You have to okay with taking a stand. Be accountable. Stand for what you believe. And if it offends people, let them be offended but don’t bend your will or change your ideology because someone disagrees. Have the integrity to stand for of what you believe. That’s what a leader. Don’t always try to be likable. Be accountable.

Eddie Turner:

Hey, listen, we’re going to take a question really quick from David Banks. We have a couple of questions. Thank you all, by the way. We have a couple of questions in the queue here. I may not get to the rest of my questions. We got to take everybody else’s question, seriously.

So, the question we have here is from David Banks. He says how does a leader find their voice. Thank you for that. That’s a great question, David.

Vincent Phipps:

Thank you, Dr. banks. And it’s Dr. David Banks. He’s also with the City of Chattanooga and he has his own company of Noble Kings. So, please follow Dr. Banks on your social media.

The way that you find your leadership voice, Dr. Banks, is you have to have a philosophy. And here’s the philosophy I recommend all the leaders incorporate – Passion over profit. I’m going to say that again. You have to put your passion over profit. In other words, you can’t make your motivation just money. You can’t just try to get that check or try to get up and get paid. That’s not the way leaders should operate. You need to operate from a place of authenticity and passion and being true to who you are. If you believe that people should work their butts off, then work your butt off. If you believe that cold calling works, then you should be cold calling. If you believe that kicking in doors is the way to do it, then kick in doors but you can’t say that you don’t want to do anything that could hurt somebody’s mental health and then you want to go and speak at a group that says “Say what you want and cuss people out.” You’ve got to be consistent in your leadership.

When you put your passion first, whatever it is you want to get paid to do, you should be doing that anyway. Leaders need to be demonstrating the excellence, not just demanding it of others. Leaders need to first demand it of themselves. Don’t look at the money you can earn. Look at the motivation that you can earn. Don’t look at the profit that you could generate. Look at the passion that you emulate. These are the things that we need to do as leaders. It’s not about how much you can make. It’s about how much greatness you can create. That’s what leaders need to do.

Eddie Turner:

Outstanding. Well, thank you very much.

I’m talking to the amazing Vincent Ivan Phipps. He is the Attitude Amplifier. And, Vincent, I saw a post that you had earlier where you said that there would be no PowerPoint, no script and no commercials. I was agreeing with everything you had there, check, check, check but there will be some commercials. I have to pay some bills.

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We’ll have more right after this.

Eddie Turner:

All right. So, with that, we are back. I am talking to Vince Ivan Phipps, CSP. He is the Attitude Amplifier and he has brought the heat.

Oh, my goodness, there are so many questions in here. I literally am not going to get to all mind.

With that, just take our audience questions for the rest of the way. And very kind, Mrs. Landrum. She says my dad will be proud. Thank you, Mrs. Landrum.

And then we have a question that’s come in to you from Deborah Levine. Deborah says “What do you say the introverts who are also leaders and wonder how to manage their public visibility that goes with it?”

Vincent Phipps:

Wonderful question. See, that’s a horrible question, Eddie.

Eddie Turner:

So, she’s got the right man. Go for it.

Vincent Phipps:

Here’s the thing, Deborah. As introverts, we need to understand the difference between situational extroversion. With situational extroversion, you have to pick the time and place to be extroverted. Unfortunately, the ideology of the “squeaky wheel gets the oil,” there is some truth to that. You need to speak when there’s need and not when there’s opportunity. As an introvert, for you and for 54% of the population who are introverted, you want to look for opportunities where you can incite new information. Don’t just disagree or don’t just agree. For an introvert, bring up intriguing questions that will lead you to the point that you want to aspire to as an introvert. Introverts often have the advantage of listening because of their nature. They’re not just blurting stuff out like a lot of the extroverts. So, when you hear a continual point being addressed that’s been argued or disputed, look for a foundational point that people can agree upon. Then ask a question about that element. Have some ideas, have some suggestions about how to transfer or how to inspire and transform and progress a current thought to a new development.

Extroverts will listen to you more when you give them a chance to think bigger. So, don’t just agree or disagree. As an introvert, listen to the key thought that’s been said. Then find a way to add formation or to ask a question to advance an ideology. That’s the key of an introvert being more extroverted in an environment full of big mouse.

Eddie Turner:

All right.

Well, I don’t know if this is a question or a comment but Uncle Wayne asks “What gave you the confidence to believe that you could beat the top 1% in your profession? What audacity.” This is more of a comment.

Vincent Phipps:

Two things, Uncle Wayne. And I love Uncle Wayne. For those that are unaware, Uncle Wayne also is Wayne Brown. His company is Bridging the Gap. He works with a lot of veterans who are transitioning from military life that may suffer from PTSD to get back to civilian life. So, thank you for all that you’re doing, Uncle Wayne.

First, Uncle Wayne, I never said I’m the top 1%. There is an algorithm that is used by a professional service for speakers that’s called eSpeakers and they ask you to list your topics, people who get recommendations, they ask you to put videos and they have a systematic ranking on your top five categories. And mine had been Communication, Presentation, Emotional Intelligence, Conflict Resolution, and Motivation. Of those five topics, they listed me in the top 1% in four of those five. They changed the algorithm based on how many times you’re booked or who says comments about you. So, I don’t say that. I’m honored that eSpeakers does.

Eddie Turner:

All right, excellent.

By the way, on your answer to Deborah Levine, she says “Thank you. I needed” and that it was beautiful.

Vincent Phipps:

Thank You, Deborah, for asking. You’re too kind.

Eddie Turner:

There’s a question that we have that has come in also from John Bentley. John’s question is “What one skill or attribute should an emerging leader focus on developing?

Vincent Phipps:

Wow!

Eddie Turner:

That actually was one of the questions I had prepared for you as well.

Vincent Phipps:

See, this whole leadership odyssey, it’s all culminating, Eddie. The best attribute that I would recommend, John, for an emerging leader to develop is to be a continual learner. If you find anybody that’s good at anything, chances are they’re practicing it all the time, they’re reading books all the time, they’re going to webinars or seminars or they’re practicing. The best way to be a leader is to do two things, John. the first is be humble enough to know that there’s always more to know. Number two, be tenacious enough to learn more information to not just support what you know but find out where other people’s problem points are and find the ways to provide additional value. When you can be a continual learner and you can be open enough to receive new information, these are the attributes that will not only make you an effective leader, it’ll make an effective person.

Eddie Turner:

All right, very good. We’re coming up close to our wrap-up. So, we got to take a couple of quick questions.

Here’s one that came in from Alethea. Alethea says “How can you learn to have the courage to speak out loud when it is unprofitable while leading?

Vincent Phipps:

Thank You, Alethea. Thank you. I know we’re very short on time, Eddie. So, I’ll make this one quick. If you want more detail, just let me know.

To be more comfortable speaking out loud, I’m assuming you mean just in the presence of others, not necessarily on stage, when you talk about having the courage to speak out loud when you’re uncomfortable while leading, focus on doing two things, Alethea. Number one, replace any adjectives with quantifiable data. So, stop saying words like ‘sorta’, ‘maybe’, ‘usually’ all the time. Do some research and say “54% of the population” or “according to our studies, they’ve shown.” That way, you don’t have to feel like the eyes are on you. You’re just disseminating new information.

Second thing you want to do to be more comfortable is you have to value what you share. Don’t worry about the criticism others may give you. That’s their issue. Don’t make it your own. If you’ve done the research, you’ve done the homework, you’ve put in your due diligence, take pride in knowing that what you have to share will bring value to others and just say it with authenticity and integrity. Speak up, raise your volume, eye contact and let them have it. if they dislike it, that’s their issue, not yours. Be proud of what you say.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. We’re going to two more and then we’ll have to follow up with everyone else.

Jose says “Happy Monday, Eddie and Vincent.” Happy Monday to you as well, Jose. “Agreed on standing for something firmly. People want to hear they’re represented in their views. What are other ways to position yourself as an authority and leader?”

Vincent Phipps:

Thank You, Jose. Jose was a former member of my team. Jose now is a coach for financial experts that want to find that dream girl. So, go to the De Vida Coaching when you are able.

What you want to do to position yourself as a leader is you want to do two things, Jose. The first is identify who is your primary demographic. If everybody’s your client, no one is. Be specific. Go specifically after who you feel need your product or service. The second thing is you got to listen to them. Don’t just go in thinking you have all the answers because of your experience or your outcome or your degrees or any training you have. Ask them questions such as “What’s your biggest challenge right now? What is the area that you need the most information? How can I bring you additional value?” Listen for what their problems are. Then create solutions, create programs, create presentations, create coaching models just on their problems. That way you not only come across as informative, you come across as valuable because you’ve identified the problem and, most importantly, you have a solution for it. That’s how we identify ourselves as experts and leaders by not being general but by being specific.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And L. J. Crawford says she values what you share. That’s powerful, Vincent.

Vincent Phipps:

Thank you, Lisa. Lisa is also a dear friend. She is also one of the graduates of Pro Speakers Kit. Checkout LJC Motivations on your social media. She is a customer service expert. When it comes to these elements, this is always an honor. And also do what Eddie is doing. Talk to other professionals. Talk to other leaders. Be the go-to person when they need one.

So, thank you.

Eddie Turner:

And Leah likes what you said about continual learning.

And our final question is going to come from Cordell Carter. Cordell Carter says Hello, Eddie and Vincent.” Hello, Cordell. “During this unique time in human history, what strategies do you suggest for leaders seeking to amplify their voice, platforms, and products?”

Vincent Phipps:

Thank you, Cordell. Cordell is the director of Aspen Institute which is a thing tank that has webinars and then seminars all over the world for professional speakers. So, thank you, Cordell, for allowing me to be your speaker.

Here’s what we need to do, Cordell. When you want to amplify your voice and your platforms and products, you want to be able to do the following. Number one, know that what you have to share is valuable. Most people have doubts. They don’t believe that they’re making a difference and they question the authenticity of what they’re offering. So, whether you are selling a glass of lemonade, whether you’re selling a new car or a new service, you’ve got to identify that it has value to the world.

And number two, the best way to improve your presentation skills, you got to practice. You have to be okay with not being okay, be okay with being criticized and critiqued. Video record yourself. Play it back. Don’t worry about messing up. Know that the first step of greatness is to fall but the improvement comes when you have the courage to get back up. So, don’t be afraid to turn on a microphone or to walk in front of a crowd or leave a voicemail. You have to do it before you can do it better.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. I believe it was Mandela or someone, I’m not sure exactly who said it, he said “Don’t judge me by how much I’ve succeeded. Judge me by how many times I’ve fallen and gotten back up.”

Vincent Phipps:

You better say it, Eddie. Man, everybody says great idea. They didn’t hear about the last lousy seven ideas.

Eddie Turner:

That’s it.

Vincent Phipps:

Be okay with messing up. Leaders aren’t afraid to fail. Leaders have the courage to fail but keep going.

Eddie Turner:

I always like to ask my leaders on the Keep Leading!® Podcast and our Keep Leading LIVE for the leadership quote or the best piece of advice they’ve ever received. What’s the best quote or advice you’ve ever received?

Vincent Phipps:

That would have to come from my father Vaughn Pago Phipps and he gave me a life lesson when I had a box of 20 chicken McNuggets. They gave me 21 nuggets and he made me take back that extra nugget. And I told him that it wasn’t our fault. They messed up, not us. And my father told me the life lesson I’d like to share with you and all of your listeners.

Doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing can be different. The key is the hard thing and the right thing are usually the same thing.

Eddie Turner:

All right, I appreciate that. And where could my listeners learn more about you, Vincent.

Vincent Phipps:

Please feel free to follow me on my YouTube channel, Vincent Phipps. You can also connect with me on Facebook or LinkedIn also under Vincent Phipps. And please visit my website at VincentPhipps.com. We have monthly newsletters that we send out on continual education, on communication, motivation, leadership or conflict resolution. So, in any of your social media streams, please feel free to reach out to me. You can email me at Vincent@VincentPhipps.com. If you want to improve your public speaking skills, you can go to my website at Noums.com. If you want to stop sounding dumb, stop saying “um.” You can also call me at (423)400-1040.

If I have not had a chance, Eddie, you have had some all-stars on here, Eddie. For those that do not know, Eddie has had on speakers who are millionaire round-table speakers, they are bestselling authors. Eddie has had on speakers who have had their Certified Speaker Professional designations. He’s even had speakers who are in the Hall of Fame. So, for a man of your integrity, and I know, Eddie, you speak all over the world, you’re one of the world’s most sought-after professional speakers, so just to know that I was in your wheelhouse of someone who you feel could bring value to your multitude of followers and listeners, thank You, Eddie, for the opportunity.

Eddie Turner:

Well, thank you, Vincent. And thank you to everyone who joined us. This has really been special. Thank you very much. It’s been an honor.

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you, as we discussed today, leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is action. Leadership is activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Thanks so much, everyone.

Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive and leadership coaching, facilitation, and professional speaking.I have a very special guest with me today. I am super excited. I’m a member of several associations and one of them is the National Speakers Association. And in the National Speakers Association, my guest today is considered NSA royalty. My guest today has one singular goal in her work and that is to help individuals and organizations understand we are all connected. Thus, we can all achieve more significant results when we learn how to build relationships with all people regardless of their packaging.

We’re going to be talking about leading through inclusion. Yes, leading beyond bias. We’re going to do that with Hall of Fame speaker Lenora Billings-Harris. Lenora Billings-Harris is a certified speaking professional and a past president of the National Speakers Association. She has presented to audiences in 18 countries on six different continents. She’s a diversity strategist and author with more than 25 years of experience in public and private sectors and she’s developed a unique way of presenting sensitive topics in a fun, thought-provoking and non-judgmental way. It is truly an honor to welcome Lenora Billings-Harris

Lenora, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Thank you so much, Eddie. And I’m so impressed you have actually read some of the things that go deeper than just what’s in my introduction. So, I do appreciate that.

Oh, are you kidding me? I am fascinated by you. I have followed your career since joining NSA and you are a true Trailblazer. I don’t just say that. That’s one of the first things I recognized when I saw you on stage. I believe the first time I saw you is when you were receiving the Cavett Award. And I didn’t understand, because I was new, “Well, what’s the significance of this award? People, explain.” This isn’t just something you give to everybody. You also have the CSP, something else that’s not just given. It’s earned. You are a Hall of Fame speaker and one of our past presidents. So, yes, I have been following you and you are somebody who I look up to and it’s because of you that I can do what I do in this organization and outside.

Oh, I’m very humbled by your kind words. Thank you so much.

So, tell us a little bit about your career as a speaker and the work that you’re doing is a leader to make leaders through your use of the art of the spoken word.

So, unbelievably, when I think about it, I’ve been in this business of professional speaking for just a little bit over 34 years at this point. However, my background was in corporate America and before that it was with the Graduate School of Business with University of Michigan. And when I was at University of Michigan, I discovered that I enjoyed working with adults who wanted to learn how to do what they do better. And I was working with leaders, the high-level managers. At that time, I wasn’t teaching them. I was actually hiring people we now call professional speakers, interestingly enough, but I really realized that “Oh, education doesn’t stop when you get your high school diploma or your advanced degree. It’s continual.” So, that’s what got my attention. And then, as time went on and my husband and I moved around the country to follow his career, I ultimately realized I wanted to do this on my own. I wanted to start my own consultancy because as much as I loved managing and leading other people, I wanted to do my own work essentially and share my thoughts about what makes a good leader. So, fast forward quickly because initially I delivered all different types of learning and development programs but then when I realized that I was put on the planet to do diversity and inclusion work, I really got focused. And the more focused I became and the more I studied and observed as leaders interact with their teams, the more I realized that leaders want to do the best job they can but very often don’t realize how their own biases get in the way of getting them the result that they want. So, it’s not about good people, bad people, bad biases, good biases. There’s just bias, really. And all of us have it because we all see the world through our own lens. So, I realized “I need to do something that will help leaders recognize that diversity truly is an advantage if you also know how to include, meaning include all of your talent and all of the talents of your team members not just a few.”

So, you’re saying that at one point in your career you were not always on this side of the mic. You were on the other side hiring and buying speakers.

Exactly, exactly.

And I love what you said also about education. It doesn’t stop. I was doing a speech this morning and listening to Dr. George Fraser. He said that he spends 15%, even at the age of 75, 15% of his income every year still investing in himself. And I thought “Wow!” I invested myself, I’m not sure I’m spending 15%, but this goal of constant continual improvement. And so, you clearly are doing that and you’re helping others to do that. And you said you started to understand the importance of diversity. So, is this what made this shift for you where you began to become the strategist that you are?

Well, one of the things that I started realizing as I learned as a member of National Speakers Association that you need to pick a lane, you need to either determine you’ll be an expert in an area of focus, meaning a particular topic, or an expert in an industry. And I had background in the automotive industry as well and I loved it but I didn’t think that’s where I wanted my consultancy to focus. So, I was looking for topic while I was still delivering programs I already had learned while I was in corporate America. So, long story short, I had the opportunity to go to South Africa several times after Mandela was freed from prison. And on one of those trips, I actually was there to deliver a leadership development workshop, a full-day workshop. And it was South Africa and it was 1994. So, I knew that was going to be most likely all men and they would all be white because no black people had risen to that level just yet because apartheid really had just been outlawed, so to speak, at least on paper. And while I was there, the first person that happened to come in the room was a woman and I wasn’t expecting a woman. So, I rushed over to her and said hello and extended my hand and she didn’t shake my hand. Now, I happened to be there the month before Mandela was to be elected president. I’d been there several times before but this time was really different because everyone was very, very afraid because no African country had ever transitioned to democracy without lots of bloodshed. So, she wouldn’t shake my hand. She sat down in the back of the room. And I proceeded to deliver the workshop. And at the end of the day, and I actually tell this as a story when I present, by the way, but in a different fashion than I’m doing it now just because I’m sensitive to time, so I want to get to the point quickly, at the end of the day, we ended up in each other’s arms crying because what she said to me, she waited until everyone left, and what she said to me, through tears, I mean, her tears were dropping to the floor, she was crying so hard, she came up gave me a bear hug and then she said “I’m an Afrikaner. Do you know what that is?” And I said “Yes.” And Afrikaners were the people who kept in place apartheid. And she said “When I walked in the room this morning, every bone in my body, every ounce in my being wanted to turn around and leave when I saw that you, a black woman from America, was the presenter. I couldn’t imagine anything you could possibly teach me.” Now, she’s crying through all of this she said “But I couldn’t leave because my bosses were going to be here. So, she sat through the day and she said “I now realize why I was here. I needed to experience you as 100% human. I needed to see you,” and I knew she was meaning a black person “as a professional.” She said “As we speak, my husband, my sons, and my brothers are gathering guns and ammunition to be prepared to kill every black person they see. I now know that I have to go home and convince them to lay down their guns and ammunition.”So, the next day I had a 17-hour flight home, I had a lot of time to think and I realized that diversity and inclusion was more than just the numbers which is how people think of diversity. It was more than just being politically correct. It was about creating a safe space for people to be authentically who they are and to allow other people in your space to be authentically who they are. She for the first time saw me authentically who I am as a black woman and discounted me initially but realized that there was more to it. And, unfortunately, this was way before social media and the internet. So, I have no way of knowing if her conviction when she left what her intention was. I don’t know if she was able to do that. I just pray that she was.

Lenora, you can’t see me right now, the expression on my face and how I’m feeling but wow! You just took me back to another area of my life and what you said was very profound. And just to think about that time period, I started reliving that period in my mind but I also started a bit of similar times even right here in the States. I can only imagine that that was not the first time someone had treated you as if you weren’t 100% human but it was probably the first time someone actually admitted it. And that is the case of so many of us, whether we’re black, whether male a female, but so many of us who are in that minority demographic, that’s a daily experience for us that people treat us less than human but when she said she was so revealing, she just thought of you as less than human, less than 100%. And we don’t always get a chance to dispel those myths in their minds.

Yes.

And you got a chance to do that because she didn’t leave. I’m thinking about what would have happened had she left.

Well, I do believe that everything happens for a reason. And I was in pursuit of what my area of focus should be. She was in pursuit of going to a workshop and having it over real quick. And things changed though once her spirit and my spirit came together. And that helped me know that I needed to find a way that people could hear this message and not see it as being judgmental. I needed to find a way to do this work where everyone would recognize that there’s something in it for them, that everyone would recognize there was something in it for them to get to know people different than themselves.

And what a pivotal time in history that you were going to do that, right” Everything associated with Mandela and everything with that country at that point in time, we’re not talking about 50 years ago. So, wow! How far we have come.

And yet how much work we still have to do, unfortunately.

Still have so much to do, yes. So, wow! What an amazing story. Thank you for sharing that. and I’m still reflecting on that.

I can appreciate that.

Something else you said that I’m still reflecting on and you and I will definitely have to talk this over. You said you got here because you were forced to pick a lane. NSA has often talked about that – Pick a lane in a topic area or in an industry. And I have been resisting that. And I have finally come to the conclusion that I need to get with the program. So, I will talk to you later.

And just know you’re not forced to do anything one direction or another but you want to be clear about why you are doing whatever it is you choose rather than just doing it.

Yes. I think the phrase was, someone said, “If everyone’s your customer, no one’s your customer.” So, especially in a time like this where we’re all going through a seismic shift in the world around us, it’s even more important now to have that clarity about exactly who you serve. So, thank you for sharing that story and thank you for prodding my conscience in two ways.I’m talking to the amazing, in fact, the legendary Lenora Billings-Harris. She’s a Hall of Fame speaker, certified speaking professional, past president of National Speakers Association in addition to being a diversity strategist. We’re talking about leading through inclusion, leading beyond bias. We’ll have more with Lenora Billings-Harris right after this.

Okay, we are back. I am talking to the legendary Lenora Billings-Harris. She is a certified speaking professional, Hall of Fame speaker, past president of the National Speakers Association, a diversity strategist and we’re talking about leading through inclusion, leading beyond bias.Lenora, you told a very riveting story before we took our break. And now, I’d like to look at a little bit about what’s happening in our world today. When we see what’s unfolding, a lot of businesses are struggling to survive. Should organizations still have concerns around diversity?

Actually, I see this time as an opportunity. As devastating as this pandemic is, all of us in the whole world are going through it and the opportunity that I see for leaders because many of them are forced to lead and manage virtually, this is an opportunity for them to see their team members as individuals, meaning without the facade of the clothes people wear, their height, their size, how they talk, all of that kind of thing. Without that facade that you would see every day normally as a leader, now as a virtual leader, you pull people together either individually or with teams and you’re focused on a result. What we know normally, and we know these are not normal times, but what we know normally is that when people work virtually, they are more productive than when they’re in the office because they can really focus on the outcomes that are necessary. However, the negative is that when part of the team is together and only a few individuals are virtual, then the people who are working virtually miss out on part of the socialization, the team-building. So, the reason I say this is an opportunity is this is an opportunity for leaders to really think “What does my team need? How can I make sure that they are engaged and that I am really sincerely interested in the work that they’re doing?” What that means is leaders have to learn how to lead virtually, how to manage these virtual team conversations, not let people talk over each other, they have to learn how to pull in the introverts. So, there are several different things and you can Google how to lead virtual teams and you’ll see many lists of things to do but the point is that they’ll have an opportunity if they’re open to it to see their team members differently, to see really all the value they bring. And it doesn’t matter if they’re sitting in a wheelchair or it doesn’t matter if they’re visually impaired. It just matters are they doing the work and can they do the work and how can you as a leader help them going even further.

Wonderful, wonderful advice. Thank you for that. And it requires a new leadership style for sure, as you alluded to. And so, leaders can’t expect to lead the same way they did pre-COVID-19 or in an office environment online.Now, there are a lot of lessons that are emerging from this pandemic. I hear people say they wish they had listened to mom and dad when they said “Put some money away,” mom and dad said “Put it away for a rainy day. We didn’t know about a rainy.” Looks like this is going to drag on for a while. And then other things about “Wish we’d spend more time with people. We’re starting to really miss face-to-face interaction.” Are there any other lessons, especially about diversity, that you see coming out of this pandemic?

Yes. In the past, I would say in some of my presentations “How interesting it is that when people experience some type of devastation like a hurricane or a tornado or if they’re in the military and now they’re at the frontline, how when people are focused in that way, they don’t care what your color is, what your beliefs are. They just care that both of you are focused on the same thing which is survival but then, once that gets handled, people go back to the stereotypes, etc. that they might have. So, what I see in this pandemic are two things. One is people are recognizing the breadth of heroes, and I would say sheroes that we have from Maya Angelou, the heroes and sheroes that we have. They’re not just the doctors and the nurses and all of the medical professionals, although, clearly, they are. So, please know I’m not discounting them but they’re also the sanitary workers, they’re also the people who work in grocery stores, they’re also the people that are working in our post offices. And I have to tell you I do get annoyed when I see customers coming into any of those places with no mask, no glove, no nothing and talking around [inaudible][23:51] that are in place.

Yes.

So, we have those heroes. So, the positive that I see is that everyone can see that we are all in this together and we need to celebrate each other. And, again, the people we’re celebrating are all different types of people, highly educated, very affluent, and people who work for 12 dollars an hour. So, that’s the positive.On the sad side, on a more negative side, is the disparity in medical care. I have done a good deal of work with different medical systems around the country. Those systems, it’s not just one hospital anymore. they’re all connected to several other hospitals.

True.

So, in those systems, the good news is that most of them are very interested in learning how to mitigate their biases because they do realize that their decisions literally are life and death, their decisions are literally life and death. And so, the more they can be aware of the disparities, the better. Some of the things that are coming to light, for instance, is when a African-American in particular but people of color, if a person of color goes into the hospital and, let’s say, he, I’ll go with men because that’s where the research is, it appears he has a heart condition and maybe he needs to lose weight. For several doctors, especially if they’re young and thinner than their patient, apparently, the bias is “I’m not going to have him on a lot of medication because he’s probably not going to take it anyway and he’s going to continue not to eat the proper food.” So, that’s an assumption they make, which could be true with some people but the statistics show that the bias is pervasive. So, we have to become more aware, we have to uncover those biases. So, I think that in the hospitals today, with all of the medical treatment that people need for the virus as well as for other things that just normally everyday people getting sick going to the hospital, more medical professionals are seeing those biases and working with their colleagues to disrupt them, to mitigate them, to go beyond them because the death rate is so high, we know that it’s impacting our medical professionals physically and mentally as well.

Wow! That is really insightful and I appreciate the emphasis on the heroes and sheroes and not just those in the operating room and working on the front line that we see in the white coats. We certainly honor them and recognize them but it’s also those that have the gloves on, that are doing the mop and doing the cleaning and making it possible for the work to take place at higher levels on the organization. So, I appreciate you highlighting that and then those folks in the grocery store and for many of whom, it simply is not an option. And so, thank you. And that is so true. And we’re seeing that disparity highlighted, seeing the lack of healthcare options and also how this disease is ravaging minority communities at a far greater level than it is others.How would diversity look after social distancing?

Well, the diversity will still look the same because diversity is just who’s on the team. And when you’re looking broadly, it’s the same people in your communities that were there before will be there after, obviously of course, except for unfortunately those we lose to this virus. So, there will still continue to be a mixture of people who are different. The inclusion part which is the action we take, so easy way, I think, to remember the difference between diversity and inclusion, diversity is who’s on the team however large the team might be and inclusion is who gets to play. From a leadership perspective you want to have diversity on your team not just for the sake of diversity, not just for the sake of difference. You want to have people who are different on your team so that you get to diversity of thought but you won’t get to diversity of thought unless you are an inclusive leader, that is unless you have fine-tuned some skills to really make your team members feel valued and respected and all of them having dignity. So, what concerns me around inclusion after the pandemic is because of the polarization that we currently have in this country and we see it in several other countries, is that once the pandemic is managed, so to speak, people will go back to their own corners because several of them are in their own corners now.

Indeed.

I mean, we just have to turn off the TV and not just watch news all day long or have it on in the background. So, what my hope is, is that the leaders, especially corporate leaders because we spend more time at work than anywhere else, corporate leaders who had to produce even with their teams being scattered, they will more clearly recognize that it’s to their benefit to convince other leaders, others of their colleagues to look for ways to be more inclusive, to be more respectful of their teams because I know absolutely that when people are treated well at work, that doesn’t just end at work for behavior on either side. They carry it with them to their communities. They carry it with them in their own personal decisions. So, that’s what my hope is.

Excellent. I’ve so enjoyed talking to you today, Lenora. What’s the main message that you would like to leave our listeners with?

Well, I’ll leave this message which is a Zulu proverb that I also learned on one of my trips to South Africa I had made a real commitment to being on the trail of diversity and inclusion. The Zulu proverb is Ubuntu. Ubuntu means “I am because we are. We are because I am.” Leaders can’t lead if they don’t have followers and followers only want to follow leaders that value and respect them.

That is absolutely beautiful. Where can my listeners know more about you?

Well, you can go to my website and the website is UbuntuGlobal.com. You can follow me on Twitter. My last name is so long that for most of the social media, it doesn’t fit. So, on Twitter you can find me @LBHDiversity. You can also find me on Facebook by my name and then my business page is Diversity Coach. And if you would like to capture lots of diversity information, not just articles that I write but articles that I curate from around the world, then follow me by going to the DiversityAdvantage.info and once a week you’ll receive an email newsletter that will have headlines that you can click on and read about diversity, good news and not so good news, but mostly good news around the world.

Fantastic. Well, we’ll put all that in the show notes so that folks can connect to you, get to know you, and follow your work because you’re doing some amazing things for the world. Thank you again for being a guest on the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you, Eddie.

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Eddie Turner:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact.

Would you like liked to have more meaningful conversations even when they’re difficult. If that is the case you’re going to want to pay attention to this episode. I this episode I have the honor of interviewing the top female coach in the world, a true pioneer in the field of coaching and emotional intelligence, Dr. Marcia Reynolds. She’s a global expert in holding mind-changing conversations. So she will explain to us how to have meaningful conversations even when they’re difficult. She’ll do that in and whole lot more right after this.

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact.

Would you like to learn how to have more meanwhile conversations even when they are difficult? If so, you want to listen to my guest today. I have with me Dr. Marcia Reynolds. Dr. Reynolds is a master certified coach. She has provided executive coaching and leadership training programs in 41 countries. Dr. Reynolds was the fifth global president of the International Coach Federation. She is also visiting faculty for the International Coach Academy in Russia and Create China Coaching in China. She is recognized as the top female coach in the world and number three overall. Interviews and excerpts from Dr. Reynolds’ books Out Smarter Brain, How To Manage Your Mind When Emotions Take The Wheel, The Discomfort Zone, How Leaders Turns Difficult Conversations Into Breakthroughs, and Wonder Woman: How High-Achieving Women Find Contentment And Direction have all appeared in many places including Fast Company, Psychology Today and the Wall Street Journal. Dr. Marcia Reynolds is truly an amazing person and this is why I’m so excited to have her on the show today.

Dr. Reynolds, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Thank you, Eddie. Thanks for asking me to be here.

Eddie Turner:

I’m just thrilled. Please tell us a little bit about you.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, as you were saying, I’ve been involved in coaching for a long time but I’ve been involved with leadership development for nearly 40 years. And it was my constant quest to find how people change their behavior that I finally found coaching and I think it’s the best technology we have for changing people’s minds, helping them to change and grow, and to build better companies.

Eddie Turner:

Wow! I’ve never heard anyone refer to coaching as a technology. Interesting word choice, I like that.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, my doctorate was in organizational psychology with an emphasis in neuroscience. So because of the powerful way that coaching impacts the brain differently from telling people what to do, giving them advice, mentoring them that we activate their brains in such a powerful way with coaching that it is definitely a technology.

Eddie Turner:

I like that. I am going to be using that, Marcia.

So I should probably share the fact that you are more than just a regular guest. You are somebody who I’ve watched from afar. I’ve read your work, I’ve seen you speak at conferences but later on I had the great fortune of meeting you in person as a client to speak at conferences for my own association when I was the president of the Association for Talent Development but also I have recently hired you to be my mentor, be my coach. And so I’ve enjoyed learning from you directly. And I completed a Coach Mastery Program with you and Dr. Dorothy Simonovic recently as well. So I want to just be able to share your wisdom with my audience. So I’m really excited to have you.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

That’s great, Eddie. It’s been really a pleasure working with you too because you’re so eager to be the best coach there is.

Eddie Turner:

Well, I figured if I’m going to be the best coach there is at the start by being coached by the best. So there we go.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Thank you.

Eddie Turner:

So you are known as a global expert not just in coaching but in holding mind changing conversations. That’s pretty impressive. How did you develop that reputation?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, as I told did you, Eddie, since I’ve been working with leaders for so many years, it was always the difficult conversation that they struggled with. And so, I spent years teaching different techniques like conflict resolution and assertiveness and fierce conversations but it was always focused on what the leader said. And when I found coaching, it was more about how leaders listen. And I said “That’s how you change your conversation.” So what leaders are always wanting to do is have people do things differently and to think differently but, again, you can’t do that by telling them “You must think differently” or coercing them. They always say “Well, I’m influencing them” when really it’s just manipulation and most people know it and they resist it. So finding a way that leaders can have impactful conversations that can really in one conversation change people’s minds and their behavior forever, that’s what impressed me and that’s why I went into studying it as a science and becoming an expert in how we do this because that’s what I do. I’m obsessed with learning how does this work and how I teach it. So I’ve spent years figuring that out.

Eddie Turner:

Now, when many people hear the phrase “mind changing conversations,” some might confuse that with manipulation. So can you tease out for what you mean in what you do and why this is not the ladder?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, that’s kind of to get them to see how can I do this. Even though they may think that that’s what they want to do, how can I change their minds? I mean that’s what we’re doing all day long, right? It’s all over social media. It’s all over our interactions. I write for Psychology Today and I’ve had quite a few posts go viral and one of my viral posts is How To Read People’s Minds. And, no, I’m not trying to make them be psychic but when you’re curious and you notice their emotional reaction and ask really good questions to help them think for themselves, it helps you understand them, which in essence is reading their mind. So when you say how to change people’s minds, what I mentioned to you before, Eddie, is that when we practice coaching, it actually impacts a different part of the brain than when we tell people what’s best for them or try to mentor them. And it hits the middle brain. This is our source of creativity and seeing things in a whole new way. And when you share reflections to get people to think about their thinking and then ask curious questions about that, it actually goes deeper into their brain and they start shifting their frames and their stories and their perceptions in a way that they see themselves and the world in a broader format. It was limiting before. Now they see new things about themselves in the world. That changes their mind forever. You can’t go back once you have a new perspective. And so it does change people’s minds. In one conversation you can do this and that’s what I write about.

Eddie Turner:

That’s powerful. So you can change people’s minds by changing their perceptions and the power is it comes from within them and that’s why it is so much different than manipulation and that’s something that is equipping them for further growth and development.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Absolutely. I mean when you tell people “You need to see it differently,” well, you know that doesn’t work.

Eddie Turner:

No, not at all, not at all.

So you discuss some of this in your work entitled The Discomfort Zone. Can you tell us what the discomfort zone is and why it matters?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

It’s interesting because some people, without reading the description of the book, I had somebody on Amazon write a review and said “I bought this book because I thought it was going to teach me how to be more comfortable in these conversations and instead, she’s teaching me how to make people uncomfortable.” And I’m like “Well, if you would’ve read the description, you would’ve known that what I have found in mentoring coaches for years and working with leaders that at the moment that a conversation gets uncomfortable, it’s like they mentally runaway, sometimes physically, they don’t move in to the discomfort to find what’s inside of this, what is this representing” because really it takes a moment of discomfort for us to be open to learning. If we’re not uncomfortable, we’re just like building on what we think we already know but when you reflect back to me the story I just told you and then you ask me a question about my belief around that story and what other elements am I missing, that might not feel comfortable for me in the moment because I’m starting to look at myself but if I don’t look at myself, I’m not going to learn and grow. If I don’t look at my stories, if I don’t look for the gaps in my logic and the limiting beliefs that I have framing my stories, the story can’t change.

Eddie Turner:

I’m glad you said that because when I read in your book that you said leaders have to be comfortable with disruption and tension and a conversation rotation because this creates the discomfort zone in which new ideas are birthed, when I read that, I exclaimed “Wow!” For many people I know, this would actually trigger the fight or flight response that we hear so much about rather than staying in that discomfort that was created. So you touched on that a little bit but can you tell me a little bit more about the importance of what you mean in that statement?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

What I had said about how many times people run away from a conversation that’s starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable, that there’s some tension, the person might be defensive and that’s the moment we need to stay with it. This is where emotional intelligence comes in to recognize when I’m uncomfortable with their discomfort and then just to breathe it out and come back and be present with the person to ask them “So what’s making you uncomfortable in this moment? Where’s the conflict for you?”

Eddie Turner:

Are you saying to ask the other person?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, you ask the person those questions but you can’t if you’re stuck in your own discomfort. Again, you notice when you start to feel uncomfortable as a listener, breathe because you’re probably holding your breath and remember that the person, if they’re uncomfortable, then this is a fabulous we list learning opportunity. So if you really want to help them, you got to get comfortable with their tension, with their discomfort so you can help them process it so they can see new possibilities.

Eddie Turner:

So I found myself kind of holding my breath before you had that. So I had to hold myself.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, right.

Eddie Turner:

So step one is recognize your own tension.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yes.

Eddie Turner:

And then when you’ve recognized your tension, ask the other person about their tension and what’s making them feel that way because of the response that they’ve elicited inside of you.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah. I mean it’s so powerful just to say “Wow! You seem to have tightened a little a little bit and you got quiet. Can you tell me what’s going on?” Just as simple as that, to get them to be looking at “What is making me feel this way in this moment?” So we notice there experience and then just be curious about it.

Eddie Turner:

Very nice.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

I want to say, Eddie, too when you mentioned about disruptions, many of the neuroscientists and the people who write, the behavioral economists like Daniel Kahneman say people get really stuck in their thinking patterns even if these patterns don’t serve them but they can’t undo that. They need an external disruption in order to rattle and free themselves from these patterns that they’re stuck in. That disruption generally comes in a form of a reflection where I just share with you what I heard you say or saw you express and a question. So we have to get comfortable with doing that kind of disruption of their thinking to help them think in a different way.

Eddie Turner:

Now, I’m glad you said that as well because that leads to something else I read that I want to ask you about, the Idea that you just talked about the external force that will trigger this via reflection and allowing the person to hear or see what they just gave to you, the recipient. You said your book for the same reason you can’t tickle yourself, you can’t fully explore your own thoughts.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Right.

Eddie Turner:

Is that what you mean what you just explained on that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Sure. Your listeners, I want you all to try tickle yourself. Your brain says “I know what you’re doing. I’m not going to let you do that” but if somebody else comes at you, they only have to touch you, they just have to wiggle their fingers, you’ll probably laugh. So it’s the same thing when we try to analyze our own thoughts. It’s our ego. Ego is just definition of who I think I am and how I see the world. The ego throws up a wall and says “No, I’m not going to let you do that because this is how I navigate your day. I take care of you. So we’re not going to evaluate thinking.” So what happens when I start to analyze my own thoughts, I rationalize my thinking, but if somebody else outside of you, and usually I’m thinking of a coach or somebody using a coaching approach, shares a reflection and a question, then it breaks through that ego barrier and we can then stop and question our own thinking. So that’s how that works.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, Marcia. So, would you say that this is one of the reasons why senior leaders in organizations have trouble analyzing their behavior and sometimes end up in their own echo chamber, as some might say, because other people aren’t going to tell them the higher they get in an organization what the truth is perhaps about their behavior. And so they just have their own confirmation biases because they continue to get rewarded with higher positions because they are the way they are.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, there are two things. One, the main reason is we have assessments, 360 assessments, engagements, surveys. It’s an external source. And then when we give them feedback and coach them with this information, then it’s far more powerful than them trying to figure out “Why is what I’m doing not working?” but you’re absolutely right, there was a great article written by a guy named Hal Gregersen, it’s a Harvard Business Review article called the CEO Bubble, and he says that especially at a CEO level people aren’t going to tell you the truth. They’re not going to tell you what you’re doing wrong. So you have to go out there and seek people’s input and what is it that they need from you differently and what challenges are they facing that you can help them with because you’re just not going to see it and people won’t be honest with you. So that’s why I love using some assessments when I coach higher level leaders or do live interviews with their leadership team and other people that are impacted by them.

Eddie Turner:

What is your favorite assessment?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, I do a lot of emotional intelligence work. So I’ve been using the EQI 2.0. And it was different when I started using it 20 years ago. So I do that but most companies I work with have 360. So I’ll just use whatever they have. I don’t like things that are too complex. I like simple things. Even if it’s communication, I’ll use the DiSC assessment but honestly I like doing live interviews, doing like five or six interviews with, if they have a boss, with their boss, a couple of their peers, and a couple of people who report to them and then I just gather it together and create a generalized report because people don’t always trust assessments but it’s interesting when you have a conversation with them and they know it’s confidential and that’s going to be a generalized report, they will be open to you. So I prefer just doing interviews for my leaders.

Eddie Turner:

Very nice, very nice. So we’re talking to the top female coach in the world Dr. Marcia Reynolds and she is helping us understand how to have meaningful conversations. We’ll continue this conversation right after this.

Eddie Turner:

Okay, we’re back everyone. We’re talking to the top female coach in the world Dr. Marcia Reynolds and she’s helping us understand how to have meaningful conversations and she’s able to do that because she is truly the authority when it comes to conversations. She is a global expert in holding mind changing conversations.

So we were talking before the break there, Marcia, about emotional intelligence and some of the assessments that you use but is there a way that you would say that people can use their emotions to influence and inspire people as a leader?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, as a leader you set the emotional tone of any conversation. So the brain tends to align itself with the emotions of what it determines is the socially dominant person in the room and hopefully that you if you’re the leader but whatever you even walk in the door with, they’re going to sense and either they will align with that or they’re going to resist it if it’s a difficult emotion that scares them. So to be very conscious of the emotions that you bring in with you, not just when you sit down with the moment you enter a room, is vital to whatever success you think you might have in a conversation. So you have to set the emotional town before you do anything else.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And one of the things I heard you say is that your emotions are even more powerful than well rehearsed words when it comes to these conversations.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Absolutely. People will trust what they’re feeling in the moment much more than whatever words you’ve chosen to say to them. Again, I go back for years when I was teaching leadership, it was always “Well, here’s what you say in these moments. Here’s how you give feedback. Here’s how you delegate.” And when I found coaching, I’m like “Oh, well, that’s why none of that worked” because it’s really, as I said before, not so much what you say but how you listen. There’s not just paying attention. There’s a how to listening that people feel comfortable with you.

Eddie Turner:

Now, along those lines of how you listen, how you pay attention, as I mentioned earlier, I had the opportunity to be a part of your inaugural Coach Mastery Workshop and it was a phenomenal experience and I have used a lot of what I’ve learned since the completion of that program but there’s one thing that you said get that I continue to repeat. In fact, I was interviewed for a program in Asia just yesterday and I cited this. You said that when we were talking about mastery, we were all thinking about the skills and different techniques and whatnot, you said that mastery is not the perfection of skills. It is the deepening of presence. How does one deepen their presence? I know the answer because you already told us but for my listeners, how do we do that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, it’s not just in coaching, Eddie, that being very present with people so we can truly hear what they’re saying and what they’re expressing and what they’re not saying but when you think about any sport, the best know how to shift into the moment and be fully present and not be distracted by anything else. It’s called in the zone. And it was years ago I was working with a sports psychologist where I was asked to come up with a formula for anybody to be in the zone no matter what it is they’re doing. And so in order to pull yourself into the present moment, the first thing you have to do is relax your body. Most people think it’s about self talk and none of the top athletes that I worked with for that program said that they used self talk. They said “If I say to myself “Oh, you’re a winner, you’re a winner,” then the back of my brain goes “No, you’re not. You’re a loser.”” And that’s when they choke. They said they had to breathe out, release the tension in their body so then they can access their brain, go to their brain, clear their mind and quickly put their awareness in the center of their body. In martial arts they call this your point of strength. It’s just below your navel. And all of the athletes said that “When I’m aware of what’s going on in my body is when I can do my best.” So that awareness of our core, that center, the bottom of your breath, that if you keep your awareness there and stay out of your head, you’re much more control. So you relax your body, clear your mind, put your awareness in the center of your body and then I add in that we don’t stay in our center that long so you anchor your thoughts with one or two words. So in coaching it’s often “I’m curious and I care.” It could be “I’m common courageous.” It could be “I’m determined.” Whatever it is that you want to feel in that moment, you choose as those words so every time you start going back to your chatty brain, you just think “How I want to feel and you breathe in curious and care. And it brings you into this present moment with the person that you’re with. And what’s so powerful about that? Not only will you listen to them better but when you’re present, they feel safe with you. And creating psychological safety is the most important thing we can do in our conversations in order to have them be effective so people feel that they can open to you, they can discuss things that aren’t comfortable. They have to feel safe. So being present helps people to feel safe with you.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. And thank you for that point of clarification as well because, yes, you taught us that in a coaching context but I thought it was also apropos here in the conversational context that we’re discussing. So thank you for outlining that. In fact, I felt a moment of Zen almost come over me as you were explaining that. My way back too because that was the first time I heard it, 1993 or in the ‘90s I should say, with Michael Jordan and The Bulls because that that was my hero growing up from basketball perspective. So Michael Jordan had a game there against the Portland Trailblazers. He was not known for shooting the three-point shot but at that game he broke the finals record for three-pointers because he hit six three-pointers. Michael Jordan was not known for shooting three-pointers but he went on to set the finals record by hitting six three-pointers and he blew away the Trailblazers in that first game. And there’s this moment they play all the time where he kind of shrug his shoulders. You can’t see me doing this but he shrugs his shoulders as if to say he looks at the sideline and says “I don’t know what’s going on.” And they asked him afterwards and described being in the zone. It was a similar ability he talked about in the game against the Celtics when he went off for 63 points. And so, yes, that context is the first time I heard it. And so seeing how we can get into the zone, not just in the sports world or in a coaching world, but in our daily conversations where we want to have an impact as leaders.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Right. Yeah, they’re good teachers.

Eddie Turner:

Very good teachers, yes.

So, Marcia, we’re having this conversation and many of these points have come from your book Outsmart Your Brain and The Discomfort Zone but you’re working on a new book. Can you tell us about that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Right. It doesn’t have such a catchy title as the other two. It’s called The Coach’s Guide to Reflective Inquiry.

Eddie Turner:

The Coach’s Guide to Reflective Inquiry, okay.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

And I’m very proud of this book. I’ve been teaching coaching skills for over 20 years and I can now say that there are certain things missing that when people learn coaching is like they think it’s all about the question. It’s not all about the question. I call it the cult of the powerful question, that there’s far more to coaching than just asking questions. In fact, my favorite quote from a guy named John Dewey who wrote a book called How We Think that defined coaching in 1910. He said that questions seek answers but inquiry provokes insight.

Eddie Turner:

Say that one more time. I want to just isolate that.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Questions seek answers but inquiry provokes insight.

Eddie Turner:

I love it.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

So inquiry is not just about asking questions. There’s a lot more to it. And he’s the one who defined reflective inquiry. So what is the reflective part in how are we missing that and what are some of the coaching myths that are out there? And this is for coaches but it’s for leaders as well because using a coaching approach to your conversations are going to be far more effective in getting the results you want.

Eddie Turner:

Well, I am so happy to share that and I will also say this, that you don’t know that I’m going to say, is you have an article on your website entitled Stop Trying To Ask Good Questions and it’s in the blog section and OutsmartYourBrain.com. And I share this with people because one of the things you were working with me on is getting out of my head and to stop trying to ask good questions. If people would like to get a little bit of a sneak peek into some of your wisdom and what you’ve taught around this, you’ve written a wonderful article that everyone has access to.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Absolutely. Well, actually, my last few blog posts were directly from the upcoming book. It was helping me sort through what I was writing. There’ll be more to come.

Eddie Turner:

Isn’t that a nice teaser? So that is a book written by a coach for coaches, it sounds like. And can other leaders benefit from this if they’re not a coach?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, absolutely. I teach leaders coach to leaders around the world and it’s becoming accepted. I mean even Google has coaching skills as their number one leadership skill.

Eddie Turner:

How about that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, and leaders need to know how to coach. I actually think this simplifies coaching. I think so many leaders, they don’t have time to do that but what I’m giving them is this is not going to take much time. If you follow what I write in the book, you’re going to find that coaching is much easier than you think, especially if you’re not sitting there thinking “Oh, what’s the question I should ask you?” It’s not about that. It’s just about “I’m listening to you. I receive what you give me and I just give it back to you.” So I’m going to simplify coaching for leaders in this book.

Eddie Turner:

I love it. I can’t wait to get my hands on a copy of that. And I agree with that premise, obviously, and I also teach a program that is not directed for folks who want to become a certified coach. They’re just leaders, managers, HR folks who are interested in having coaching skills and that program is for the Association for Talent Development, their coaching certificate program. So it is an important skill. And to your point, organizations at all levels are seeing that this is an important skill set to have. Interesting to know that Google considers it number one. I didn’t know that. So, thank you for sharing that tip.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, in their oxygen study they came up with that was the number and skill and I think emotional intelligence was number three.

Eddie Turner:

How about that? Two in-demand skills that a lot of folks are talking about and a lot of things are being written about but it still seems to be an invasive skill that folks have yet to attain to the level they’d like. So certainly people like you, your work both as a practitioner and also as a thought leader who’s putting these things down in writing go a long way in helping us all improve.

So, Marcia, tell us, if you would, what is the main point you want our listeners to take away from our conversation today.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, I think you and I have discussed a number of times the importance of being present, that people won’t even listen to you if they don’t sense that you’re fully present with them. So whether it’s setting your emotional tone, remembering who you are as a leader to put the person in high regard that you have to create this what I call a safety bubble where they feel safe with you and that’s based in your presence.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that, Marcia. And since this is the Keep Leading Podcast, we like to give leaders a quote that they can reflect on to help them keep leading. Do you have a quote you’d like to share?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

They want you to be present more than they need you to be perfect.

Eddie Turner:

Okay, wonderful. They want you to be present more than they want you to be perfect. What a nice thing for us to remember as leaders as we keep leading.

Marcia, where can my leaders learn more about you? I’ve enjoyed this conversation. I hate to stop.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, of course, my website which, thank you, you’ve mentioned because I do have a blog there. The website site is OutsmartYourBrain.com. So they can go there. They can find all my books I’ve written there. There are a lot of free resources other than the blog. There are videos. And if they look under The Discomfort Zone, they’ll find all kinds of tools and resources that they can use. Of course I’m on LinkedIn. I write for Psychology Today. So they can find me around the internet.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Yes, you are available everywhere. There’s something else I want folks to know and that is that you recently delivered a stellar TED Talk. And so we want folks also look for How To Use Anger As A Force For Good and this will be in the show notes and a link to that will also be on the page I create for you on my side as well.

So, Marcia, thank you for being a guest on the Keep Leading Podcast.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Thank you, Eddie, for having me. I truly enjoyed the conversation.

Eddie Turner:

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Hi, everyone. This is Eddie Turner, your host of the Keep Leading Podcast, a podcast dedicated to leadership development and leadership insights. And today we are going to be listening to Joel Block. Joel’s one of the sharpest financial guys I know and Joel’s go share business leadership strategies with us, how we can lead as leaders with financial integrity, with financial intelligence and why it matters and other strategies that we can use if you’re an entrepreneur or small business owner. He’ll share all of that with us and more right after this.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, a podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact. Today I am really excited to speak to a fund manager, venture capitalists and keynote speaker who provides clients disruption-proof strategies to give their company the inside track. I’m talking about Joel Block.Joel, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Eddie, hey, thank you very much. How are you man?

I’m doing well. Thank you. before I get into this Joel, please tell people a little bit about your background because you have a phenomenal background. I want people know a little bit about who you are.

Sure. Well, I started in the CPA business but really wasn’t destined to stay in that business and when I was at Pricewaterhouse years ago started working as real estate syndicators. Those are people that raise capital by assets. And I just thought “Gee, that’s a business I want to be in. So I quit Pricewaterhouse, went in that business and then I felt into a venture capital transaction along the way and raised a bunch of money. So I really learned how to raise money and I learned how to acquire deals and be involved in the deal business and I’ve spent the last 30 years doing that and I’ve gotten pretty good at it.

Yes, I’d say, given some of the things I’ve seen you’ve accomplished in some of the things that you do. And I got a chance to actually hear you do what you do in front of a live audience not long ago. And you and I met because you shifted from just doing your work in the finance world to speaking about it and you are now a member of the National Speakers Association and you’re on international board. So tell us about how you use speaking in your business and why that’s so important.

Well, in 1995 I sold a company that I had raised a bunch of money for and that I had spent some years working on. And after that transaction I thought “You know, entrepreneurs and business owners across the country really could benefit from learning from what it is that I learned as an entrepreneur and what is that I did when I was out in the field.” And it took a little while to kind of get up and running but I started telling stories to different kinds of groups and explaining things and people really like this, they find it very inspiring, very motivating but they also really find it very tactical because I’m not making this stuff up as I go along. I mean I really did the things that I talk about. And as a result of that, I’ve just continued and then along the way a big real estate company called and asked if I would do a seminar program for them. And so that’s turned into something pretty substantially. I teach real estate investors how to set up syndications and funds and how to raise money.So, listen, I’ve been in a variety of businesses and I just talk about them and tell other people about them and I love sharing what it is that I do and I love helping other people learn.

That’s one of the things that’s so impressive about you. You do have just a vast amount of knowledge from your different experiences in this area. And when you are speaking you come across as an authority. There’s just no question that you know your stuff but then also you kind of have people on the edge of their chairs, they’re hanging on your every word because you really are not just sharing regular knowledge that people can get out of a book. You really are giving people the inside track, if you will, as to how things work on the back end and give a perspective that the average person wouldn’t normally hear.

Well, people in the money business are on the inside track. And everybody wants to be in the inside track but most people really have a hard time getting there. It’s one of the things that I talk about. I talk about that there are retail investors which is almost everybody and then there are professional investors which is me and the people that that I spend time with. And there are reasons that professional investors make more money in five days than everybody else makes five years and it’s because they know certain things, they understand certain things, they look at the world in a certain way and that’s the inside track. And the inside track, by the way, is not that you get secret tips from people and that people know everything because that’s not always true. Listen, we all have networks, we all know people, and we all have different kinds of capital. We have intellectual capital, financial capital, we have relational capital, reputational capital. We have all different kinds of things and we need to put those things to good use. And the inside track to me is the best, smartest and fastest way to get things done. And if you’re not doing it that way, then you’re going to lose to people who are on the inside track and they really have an advantage over you. So I hope that people will start to learn how to take advantage of being on the inside track.

Yeah, your formula for how to make more money in five days than some people we’ll make in five years, that was phenomenal to see you unpack that in front of a live audience. And so I’m going to encourage people to definitely look at your next offering so that they can learn from you directly. Now, they don’t have to wait until they’re sitting in one of your sessions. You actually wrote a book where you detail a lot of information that is just very straightforward, easy to read, it makes so much sense. The title of the book, share that with us, please.

Stop Hustling Gigs And Start Building A Business.

And then the subtitle is what I really love.

101 Tricks Of The Trade To Help Entrepreneurs And Self-Employed People Build A Money-Making Machine.

Yeah that’s powerful. I know a lot of entrepreneurs, I am one myself, of course, and self employed people both in the speaking business and outside of the speaking business. So, your 101 tips, it’s like “Wow! This is common sense stuff here” but you make it real and you make it tangible, something that we can actually put into action. Can you share with us perhaps, and it’s like asking a parent which one is their favorite child, but out of the 101 tips that you share, what’s your favorite?

Well, first of all, let me say that I spent a lot of years in venture capital, investing in companies. I’ve probably been inside more than a thousand companies. And I’ve watched what successful companies do and I’ve watched a lot of other companies that are not so successful and they consequently aren’t around anymore. And there are things, there are patterns that exist. So I documented that some of these patterns over a long period of time and that’s what the book is. It’s really a collection of all these different things that I learned being in the field and investing in companies and investing in management teams and being involved with these different kinds of people. I would really probably say the one that I go to the most often, there’s 101 or 105 or whatever, I forget what’s in the book, but “Money follows expertise. The better you get at something, whatever the underlying thing is, you need to get better and better and better at your craft. The better you get at it, the more money you’re likely to make.” Now does it happen once in a while that somebody’s mediocre and they skyrocket? Yeah, once in a while but for most people the trick really is to get really good at your craft and then things are going to take care of themselves.

So how do I know I’m good at my craft because I think I’m okay, right? The average person might be thinking what they should use.

I can’t really give you a barometer for each industry. Everybody has to kind of know for themselves what that means. Maybe that means that they get a coach. Maybe that means that they have a teacher or instructor that helps them. Maybe they’re on a mastermind group with some high-level people. There’s probably a lot of different components honest to that but you have to really work hard to be near or at the top of your game, be the best you can be, and when you feel like you’re really on track to be the best you can be, other people are going to stand up and take notice and that’s when money starts moving in your direction. And that applies not only the people. It applies to companies. If your company is the best in the space, money’s going to be attracted to it. So you got to add value. You got to be really good at what you do. Do not go online and tell everybody how great you are if you can’t deliver, if you don’t have the goods.

Very good advice. All right. Well, in your career, in what you are doing now in venture capitalist, it’s been very successful and you have all these lessons around finance, around business. You told us that money follows the expertise but is there another key piece of advice you by yourself often giving leaders, giving entrepreneurs.

Money is a complicated thing. And one of the things that I tried to make people aware of is that you have to understand the character of money. And people look at me like I have four eyes when I say character. People are saying “Joel, money doesn’t have character. It’s green and it goes in your pocket and that’s it” but the truth is that money is very, very complex. I studied money in college for years and interest rates and accounting is how to write it down and then finances, how to organize it and get more. The difference between me and other people, the way I look at money in the way that non-professional money people look at money, well, let’s put it like this. To an accountant, for example, or most people in general, they tend to look at money like poker chips. It’s a way of keeping score. And that’s fine. You definitely can keep score with money. If one person’s really, really good and they do a great job, that’s fantastic, but to me, I look at it a little differently than that. I look at it as a tool. To me, money is the tool that I use to make more money. Most people do not use money as a tool. Most people just keep score with the money but I actually use it as a tool. And so the character of the money is very important and you really have to understand the money. And by the way, the federal government understands the character of money very, very well which is why our tax code is so incredibly complicated. There are hundreds of different characters of money and most people are sitting there and saying “I can’t even think of one” but I’ll tell you that it’s very complicated.And as you get into the nitty-gritty, there’s a lot to understand and the more you understand, the more likely you are to get a seat at the table, to keep your seat at the table, and to really be part of the decision making in a business organization because at the end of the day, businesses are about making money. Now I would go a step further and I would say as much as I’m about money, business is really not only about money. Business is really about people because people make money.

Well, tell me more about this idea that you use money as a tool because to your point, many people are probably thinking “Well, I just keep score with it?”

Well, I mean, look, investors give me their money. So I have a bank account full of money and then I take that money and I go buy things. I buy assets and those assets, we add value to those assets that makes those assets more valuable. Than we sell those assets to other people and then we make money and the money comes back in our account and we share that profit with our investors. So that’s how we use money as a tool. I mean, the fact that we have the capital ready to go, and I talk about there being a readiness premium, we actually make money because our money’s ready to go. If your money’s not ready to go, you’re going to pay more money. If your money’s ready to go, you’re going to pay less money when you go buy something. So the fact that we’re organized, we’re ready to go, we get a readiness premium and then we put the word out, the word in the marketplace, deals start coming our way because we’re the guys with the money and then we start buying things and then we start investing in things or we start in a moving money in a certain way. And those are the things that help us to make more money on the money itself. So we make money on the money and that’s what most people do not know how to do.

Okay, very interesting. So I’m an entrepreneur and if I’m an entrepreneur listening to this podcast who is a leader, who’s leading their own business, they’re leading their our own community organization, whatever it may be, can you tell them about something that you wrote in Chapter 13 of your book where you talk about building your revenue octopus.

Oh yeah. Listen, this is really important. A revenue octopus, the concept is that great businesses have multiple streams of revenue that are all derivative from the same origin. And what that means is that you want to repurpose your money and you want to repurpose your revenue streams in different ways. So you get one thing going and then you do something that’s similar but enough different that new money’s coming in, so you’re reaching new markets, new people and you’re really maximizing the way that the money moves. What you don’t want to do is spread yourself so thinly you can’t control what you’re doing. So you have a supermarket over here and a restaurant over there and some other kind of business down the street and you’re doing this and doing that, that doesn’t work, but a revenue octopus … Let’s think about a couple of great companies. So, for example, Starbucks is a great company and I think about Starbucks, how they might have got started. They first started brewing coffee, great coffee. And then a couple guys probably sat down together and said “Gee, we have this great coffee and we have these customers. So what are our assets? Well, one is the recipe for the coffee. The other asset we have is our customers. What else could we give these customers? How can we go deeper with these people and give me more? So what else do they like to buy? They’d probably like to buy maybe a coffee machine for their house or maybe they’d like to buy some clothing with our logo on it because now our logo is becoming popular or eventually down the road they’ll say “Well, gee, maybe people would like to buy gift cards” or maybe they’d like to get a credit card with our company’s name on it.” And then eventually Costco calls and says “Hey, could we sell your beans in bulk?” So you see where that goes. So over time they have many, many different ways for you to leave money at Starbucks. There’s a lot of ways Starbucks can make money on you. And that concept is what I think of as a revenue octopus. Great businesses have eight, sometimes even more than eight. I talk about put your faith in eight. You have to have a lot of revenue streams in order to have a really successful business. If you have only one, you’re subject to seasonality, downturns and other kinds of things including concentration which is really dangerous. So there’s all kinds of things that can go wrong and you want to be very careful that you’re strategically planning to be smart and ahead of the curve and really good. And when you do that, you’re going to find out that you’ve got a great business.

Put your faith in eight. Revenue octopus. All right, that’s a phrase that you own. You’ve trademarked the ‘Revenue Octopus’. Thank you for sharing that with us, Joel. So you’ve given us a lot of good things to think about here – Money follows the expertise, use money as a tool, and have a revenue octopus. We’re talking Joel block right now.We’re going to Joel Block. Right now I’m going to pause for a word from our sponsors.

We’re back.So we’re talking to Joel Block, one of the sharpest finance guys I know, and he’s letting us know as leaders, as entrepreneurs, as self-employed people some of the things that we need to think about when it comes to running a business and around the ideal of finances.

Joel, our good mutual friend Rochelle Rice said you asked her what in coaching I would call a powerful question. She said you asked “Are you building a business or hustling the next gig?” And she said it knocked her out of her chair.

Well, listen, that’s the concept of the book is that most people do not have a business. They really just have a job that they’ve given themselves. Now, we’re talking what about smaller operations. The middle-sized companies, they understand the concept of strategic planning. They understand the idea of having multiple streams of revenue. So we’re talking now about smaller companies or smaller groups. And it’s very dangerous. If you go out, you sell something, you deliver the service and then you run back to your office, get back on the phone and start calling more people, somebody else gives you a little something to do, you run out, you do it. That’s a really hard way to live for a long period of time. So you have to have some way of having the business do some of the work. If you’re doing all the work, that’s not really a business. That’s either a practice or it’s something else but you really got to have that business helping you. It’s got to do some of the work. Your reputation, your brand, they all have to be working for you.

Do you have any examples that come to mind, Joel?

Examples of which part of this?

You said having the business work for you.

Yeah, in any really good business, you’re going to develop referrals. So referrals might be one way that business comes in. And then your reputation, people are going to get to know who you are over a period of time. And you have to have different things that they can buy. You have to be able to productized yourself in a way that you have to turn some of your things into products where somebody says “You know, Joel, we don’t need a speaker right now but we need some advice” or “Our CEO wants to be part of a group of other CEOs, a private group that maybe like what I run” or somebody needs some sounding board or somebody needs this or … There’s the different ways that I interact with people that I deal with. That’s part of what it is. So you have to have lots of different ways that people can work with you. And then you might have your Marketing department using social media, so social media is helping drive leads. You might have lots of different ways that you’re generating referrals or you might have sales people that are helping you. So somehow or another you’re not doing all the work. The business is doing a large portion of the work.

Thank you for sharing that. Now you believe that everyone, as a leader especially, should prioritize financial literacy so much so that I’m told that you demand that everyone who works for you or sits on the board with you masters basic finance 101. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Well, that’s true. I can’t always demand it but I was the chairman of the board of the Los Angeles Boys and Girls Club which is a pretty big club in Los Angeles. We serve about 7000 children a year. Many of those children are from disadvantaged families. And the job of the board of directors, like the job of the officers in the company, really the job of those people is to make sure that our executive director had the resources that she needed to take care of the children that we’re charged with taking care of. And if you don’t understand how the money works, it’s very difficult to really be taken very seriously in a larger company and it’s hard to be successful. You could be great at many other things but at the highest level of management, in order to really be taken seriously, you have to bring some financial acumen to the table. And so when I was chairman, there were many people who were not financial people and we’d take out the balance sheet, the income statement, we’d do the financial report for the month and I would explain, I do a little less than a 15-minute lesson on some financial concept that I wanted everybody to understand. And there were people that didn’t like it because they thought it wasted a lot of their time but at the end of the day, after learning a lot of this stuff, people really come around and they say “Gee, it’s really good that we did this because number one, we’re stewards of capital, we’re responsible, we’re making decisions and if you don’t understand the decisions that you’re making, you’re going to find yourself in a pot of trouble after a while.” So I try to encourage groups do this. Not everybody is equally open to it but I certainly think that groups inside companies and there are particular sectors inside of companies, for example, HR, HR people, they bring so much value to the table but they’re not always taken seriously at the most senior level of the organization because they can’t contribute in a financial capacity. And they really need to bone up on these things because that’s the way they’re going to get their seat at the table and that’s how they’re going to keep their seat at the table as being able to understand what the financial contribution of their department is to the company because they’re human capitalists and that’s pretty much the most valuable component the whole company and they responsible for that. So they have to get above the compliance of the HR and really kind of get into the value driven component that they’re delivering. And when they get above that and they get into that new level, it really makes a huge difference and their performance starts to go up, their recognition goes up, the respect they get goes up. All the way around it works out for them.

So to be a leader at any level in any organization, we must understand finances. It’s inextricably linked to being taken serious. I like how you said that.

Well, listen, there are people that will take offence to “Well, I’m taken seriously and I don’t know about money” and you know what, you absolutely can be taken seriously but at the highest level of the organization in a business which is all about delivering value and converting that into profit, it’s very difficult to be a significant contributor if you don’t have financial wherewithal and capacity.

Okay, thank you.So, at times as leaders, we might not give a lot of thought to some decisions that that we need to make and we may kind of have a knee jerk reaction and just make a decision off the cuff. What advice would you say to leaders who are making knee jerk decisions?

I’d say “Count to 3.” A big part of the problem that we have in our society, Eddie, is that people, they do a lot of knee jerks. Now, I’m not talking about intuition, and you know I’m very intuitive and I make decisions based on my intuition, and understand you can never have 100% of the information. If you get 60%, 70%, 80% of the information, you have to be able to make a decision with the data level of information. The thing is you don’t want to make a decision with 10%. You want to gather enough information to be smart. And it’s really my opinion that if the people in our society in general just counted to 3 and didn’t blurb dumb stuff out and they just thought about what they were about to say, so many of the problems that we have as a society would subside.

All right. Well then, Joel, I really appreciate all this information that you’ve shared, these insights that you’ve shared with myself and the leaders listening to our program. What would you say is the big takeaway from our conversation station today that you want every leader to know?

I want people to learn enough that they can take the inside track because there are people who are taking the inside track. Now you may not yourself know how to take the inside track but you need to get around people who are on the inside track, they can share with you how to take the inside track. And when you do that, you’re going to find yourself being a lot more successful. And actually, if I could give a little plug, my own podcast show which you’ve been on is called Profit From The Inside and for every single week we deliver different kinds of approaches and techniques for taking the inside track.

Thank you. So your podcast Profit From The Inside, strategies to give your business the inside track and then you’ve also provided for our listeners a list of your top tools for leaders for 2019. I’m going to put that in the show notes for folks. And you’ve got an impressive list of tools that you’re sharing.

Yeah. Smaller companies have to produce 20 times what our corporate counterparts produce. And we have to lean on really good tools to help us to do that. So many of our smaller companies, we don’t have janitors emptying our trash and we don’t have, I don’t know, technicians changing the printer cartridges in our printers and we really have to be good at doing more things in a lot less time than some other people do. So I just have these great resources that I’ve used over a long period of time and I always am adding new ones, different kinds of things that help me to be more efficient and optimize and stay on the inside track.

All right. On the Keep Leading Podcast we want to make sure leaders can keep leading. What words of advice would you have for them?

I would tell your people that money follows expertise and just make sure that you are the best that you can be and it will start to be recognized.

All right. Well, Joel, thank you so much. Where can my listeners find out more about you?

Probably the best place to go to is JoelBlock.com and there’s a lot of information about me. We produce weekly completely commentary beside the podcast. We produce all different kinds of commentary and most of the information about those things are available on the website.

Excellent. And we’ll also make sure we put links to your social media profiles so folks can follow you on social media.

Perfect.

Well thank you again, Joel, for being on the Keep Leading Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.