Eddie Turner:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact.

Would you like liked to have more meaningful conversations even when they’re difficult. If that is the case you’re going to want to pay attention to this episode. I this episode I have the honor of interviewing the top female coach in the world, a true pioneer in the field of coaching and emotional intelligence, Dr. Marcia Reynolds. She’s a global expert in holding mind-changing conversations. So she will explain to us how to have meaningful conversations even when they’re difficult. She’ll do that in and whole lot more right after this.

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact.

Would you like to learn how to have more meanwhile conversations even when they are difficult? If so, you want to listen to my guest today. I have with me Dr. Marcia Reynolds. Dr. Reynolds is a master certified coach. She has provided executive coaching and leadership training programs in 41 countries. Dr. Reynolds was the fifth global president of the International Coach Federation. She is also visiting faculty for the International Coach Academy in Russia and Create China Coaching in China. She is recognized as the top female coach in the world and number three overall. Interviews and excerpts from Dr. Reynolds’ books Out Smarter Brain, How To Manage Your Mind When Emotions Take The Wheel, The Discomfort Zone, How Leaders Turns Difficult Conversations Into Breakthroughs, and Wonder Woman: How High-Achieving Women Find Contentment And Direction have all appeared in many places including Fast Company, Psychology Today and the Wall Street Journal. Dr. Marcia Reynolds is truly an amazing person and this is why I’m so excited to have her on the show today.

Dr. Reynolds, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Thank you, Eddie. Thanks for asking me to be here.

Eddie Turner:

I’m just thrilled. Please tell us a little bit about you.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, as you were saying, I’ve been involved in coaching for a long time but I’ve been involved with leadership development for nearly 40 years. And it was my constant quest to find how people change their behavior that I finally found coaching and I think it’s the best technology we have for changing people’s minds, helping them to change and grow, and to build better companies.

Eddie Turner:

Wow! I’ve never heard anyone refer to coaching as a technology. Interesting word choice, I like that.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, my doctorate was in organizational psychology with an emphasis in neuroscience. So because of the powerful way that coaching impacts the brain differently from telling people what to do, giving them advice, mentoring them that we activate their brains in such a powerful way with coaching that it is definitely a technology.

Eddie Turner:

I like that. I am going to be using that, Marcia.

So I should probably share the fact that you are more than just a regular guest. You are somebody who I’ve watched from afar. I’ve read your work, I’ve seen you speak at conferences but later on I had the great fortune of meeting you in person as a client to speak at conferences for my own association when I was the president of the Association for Talent Development but also I have recently hired you to be my mentor, be my coach. And so I’ve enjoyed learning from you directly. And I completed a Coach Mastery Program with you and Dr. Dorothy Simonovic recently as well. So I want to just be able to share your wisdom with my audience. So I’m really excited to have you.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

That’s great, Eddie. It’s been really a pleasure working with you too because you’re so eager to be the best coach there is.

Eddie Turner:

Well, I figured if I’m going to be the best coach there is at the start by being coached by the best. So there we go.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Thank you.

Eddie Turner:

So you are known as a global expert not just in coaching but in holding mind changing conversations. That’s pretty impressive. How did you develop that reputation?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, as I told did you, Eddie, since I’ve been working with leaders for so many years, it was always the difficult conversation that they struggled with. And so, I spent years teaching different techniques like conflict resolution and assertiveness and fierce conversations but it was always focused on what the leader said. And when I found coaching, it was more about how leaders listen. And I said “That’s how you change your conversation.” So what leaders are always wanting to do is have people do things differently and to think differently but, again, you can’t do that by telling them “You must think differently” or coercing them. They always say “Well, I’m influencing them” when really it’s just manipulation and most people know it and they resist it. So finding a way that leaders can have impactful conversations that can really in one conversation change people’s minds and their behavior forever, that’s what impressed me and that’s why I went into studying it as a science and becoming an expert in how we do this because that’s what I do. I’m obsessed with learning how does this work and how I teach it. So I’ve spent years figuring that out.

Eddie Turner:

Now, when many people hear the phrase “mind changing conversations,” some might confuse that with manipulation. So can you tease out for what you mean in what you do and why this is not the ladder?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, that’s kind of to get them to see how can I do this. Even though they may think that that’s what they want to do, how can I change their minds? I mean that’s what we’re doing all day long, right? It’s all over social media. It’s all over our interactions. I write for Psychology Today and I’ve had quite a few posts go viral and one of my viral posts is How To Read People’s Minds. And, no, I’m not trying to make them be psychic but when you’re curious and you notice their emotional reaction and ask really good questions to help them think for themselves, it helps you understand them, which in essence is reading their mind. So when you say how to change people’s minds, what I mentioned to you before, Eddie, is that when we practice coaching, it actually impacts a different part of the brain than when we tell people what’s best for them or try to mentor them. And it hits the middle brain. This is our source of creativity and seeing things in a whole new way. And when you share reflections to get people to think about their thinking and then ask curious questions about that, it actually goes deeper into their brain and they start shifting their frames and their stories and their perceptions in a way that they see themselves and the world in a broader format. It was limiting before. Now they see new things about themselves in the world. That changes their mind forever. You can’t go back once you have a new perspective. And so it does change people’s minds. In one conversation you can do this and that’s what I write about.

Eddie Turner:

That’s powerful. So you can change people’s minds by changing their perceptions and the power is it comes from within them and that’s why it is so much different than manipulation and that’s something that is equipping them for further growth and development.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Absolutely. I mean when you tell people “You need to see it differently,” well, you know that doesn’t work.

Eddie Turner:

No, not at all, not at all.

So you discuss some of this in your work entitled The Discomfort Zone. Can you tell us what the discomfort zone is and why it matters?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

It’s interesting because some people, without reading the description of the book, I had somebody on Amazon write a review and said “I bought this book because I thought it was going to teach me how to be more comfortable in these conversations and instead, she’s teaching me how to make people uncomfortable.” And I’m like “Well, if you would’ve read the description, you would’ve known that what I have found in mentoring coaches for years and working with leaders that at the moment that a conversation gets uncomfortable, it’s like they mentally runaway, sometimes physically, they don’t move in to the discomfort to find what’s inside of this, what is this representing” because really it takes a moment of discomfort for us to be open to learning. If we’re not uncomfortable, we’re just like building on what we think we already know but when you reflect back to me the story I just told you and then you ask me a question about my belief around that story and what other elements am I missing, that might not feel comfortable for me in the moment because I’m starting to look at myself but if I don’t look at myself, I’m not going to learn and grow. If I don’t look at my stories, if I don’t look for the gaps in my logic and the limiting beliefs that I have framing my stories, the story can’t change.

Eddie Turner:

I’m glad you said that because when I read in your book that you said leaders have to be comfortable with disruption and tension and a conversation rotation because this creates the discomfort zone in which new ideas are birthed, when I read that, I exclaimed “Wow!” For many people I know, this would actually trigger the fight or flight response that we hear so much about rather than staying in that discomfort that was created. So you touched on that a little bit but can you tell me a little bit more about the importance of what you mean in that statement?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

What I had said about how many times people run away from a conversation that’s starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable, that there’s some tension, the person might be defensive and that’s the moment we need to stay with it. This is where emotional intelligence comes in to recognize when I’m uncomfortable with their discomfort and then just to breathe it out and come back and be present with the person to ask them “So what’s making you uncomfortable in this moment? Where’s the conflict for you?”

Eddie Turner:

Are you saying to ask the other person?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, you ask the person those questions but you can’t if you’re stuck in your own discomfort. Again, you notice when you start to feel uncomfortable as a listener, breathe because you’re probably holding your breath and remember that the person, if they’re uncomfortable, then this is a fabulous we list learning opportunity. So if you really want to help them, you got to get comfortable with their tension, with their discomfort so you can help them process it so they can see new possibilities.

Eddie Turner:

So I found myself kind of holding my breath before you had that. So I had to hold myself.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, right.

Eddie Turner:

So step one is recognize your own tension.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yes.

Eddie Turner:

And then when you’ve recognized your tension, ask the other person about their tension and what’s making them feel that way because of the response that they’ve elicited inside of you.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah. I mean it’s so powerful just to say “Wow! You seem to have tightened a little a little bit and you got quiet. Can you tell me what’s going on?” Just as simple as that, to get them to be looking at “What is making me feel this way in this moment?” So we notice there experience and then just be curious about it.

Eddie Turner:

Very nice.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

I want to say, Eddie, too when you mentioned about disruptions, many of the neuroscientists and the people who write, the behavioral economists like Daniel Kahneman say people get really stuck in their thinking patterns even if these patterns don’t serve them but they can’t undo that. They need an external disruption in order to rattle and free themselves from these patterns that they’re stuck in. That disruption generally comes in a form of a reflection where I just share with you what I heard you say or saw you express and a question. So we have to get comfortable with doing that kind of disruption of their thinking to help them think in a different way.

Eddie Turner:

Now, I’m glad you said that as well because that leads to something else I read that I want to ask you about, the Idea that you just talked about the external force that will trigger this via reflection and allowing the person to hear or see what they just gave to you, the recipient. You said your book for the same reason you can’t tickle yourself, you can’t fully explore your own thoughts.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Right.

Eddie Turner:

Is that what you mean what you just explained on that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Sure. Your listeners, I want you all to try tickle yourself. Your brain says “I know what you’re doing. I’m not going to let you do that” but if somebody else comes at you, they only have to touch you, they just have to wiggle their fingers, you’ll probably laugh. So it’s the same thing when we try to analyze our own thoughts. It’s our ego. Ego is just definition of who I think I am and how I see the world. The ego throws up a wall and says “No, I’m not going to let you do that because this is how I navigate your day. I take care of you. So we’re not going to evaluate thinking.” So what happens when I start to analyze my own thoughts, I rationalize my thinking, but if somebody else outside of you, and usually I’m thinking of a coach or somebody using a coaching approach, shares a reflection and a question, then it breaks through that ego barrier and we can then stop and question our own thinking. So that’s how that works.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, Marcia. So, would you say that this is one of the reasons why senior leaders in organizations have trouble analyzing their behavior and sometimes end up in their own echo chamber, as some might say, because other people aren’t going to tell them the higher they get in an organization what the truth is perhaps about their behavior. And so they just have their own confirmation biases because they continue to get rewarded with higher positions because they are the way they are.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, there are two things. One, the main reason is we have assessments, 360 assessments, engagements, surveys. It’s an external source. And then when we give them feedback and coach them with this information, then it’s far more powerful than them trying to figure out “Why is what I’m doing not working?” but you’re absolutely right, there was a great article written by a guy named Hal Gregersen, it’s a Harvard Business Review article called the CEO Bubble, and he says that especially at a CEO level people aren’t going to tell you the truth. They’re not going to tell you what you’re doing wrong. So you have to go out there and seek people’s input and what is it that they need from you differently and what challenges are they facing that you can help them with because you’re just not going to see it and people won’t be honest with you. So that’s why I love using some assessments when I coach higher level leaders or do live interviews with their leadership team and other people that are impacted by them.

Eddie Turner:

What is your favorite assessment?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, I do a lot of emotional intelligence work. So I’ve been using the EQI 2.0. And it was different when I started using it 20 years ago. So I do that but most companies I work with have 360. So I’ll just use whatever they have. I don’t like things that are too complex. I like simple things. Even if it’s communication, I’ll use the DiSC assessment but honestly I like doing live interviews, doing like five or six interviews with, if they have a boss, with their boss, a couple of their peers, and a couple of people who report to them and then I just gather it together and create a generalized report because people don’t always trust assessments but it’s interesting when you have a conversation with them and they know it’s confidential and that’s going to be a generalized report, they will be open to you. So I prefer just doing interviews for my leaders.

Eddie Turner:

Very nice, very nice. So we’re talking to the top female coach in the world Dr. Marcia Reynolds and she is helping us understand how to have meaningful conversations. We’ll continue this conversation right after this.

Eddie Turner:

Okay, we’re back everyone. We’re talking to the top female coach in the world Dr. Marcia Reynolds and she’s helping us understand how to have meaningful conversations and she’s able to do that because she is truly the authority when it comes to conversations. She is a global expert in holding mind changing conversations.

So we were talking before the break there, Marcia, about emotional intelligence and some of the assessments that you use but is there a way that you would say that people can use their emotions to influence and inspire people as a leader?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, as a leader you set the emotional tone of any conversation. So the brain tends to align itself with the emotions of what it determines is the socially dominant person in the room and hopefully that you if you’re the leader but whatever you even walk in the door with, they’re going to sense and either they will align with that or they’re going to resist it if it’s a difficult emotion that scares them. So to be very conscious of the emotions that you bring in with you, not just when you sit down with the moment you enter a room, is vital to whatever success you think you might have in a conversation. So you have to set the emotional town before you do anything else.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And one of the things I heard you say is that your emotions are even more powerful than well rehearsed words when it comes to these conversations.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Absolutely. People will trust what they’re feeling in the moment much more than whatever words you’ve chosen to say to them. Again, I go back for years when I was teaching leadership, it was always “Well, here’s what you say in these moments. Here’s how you give feedback. Here’s how you delegate.” And when I found coaching, I’m like “Oh, well, that’s why none of that worked” because it’s really, as I said before, not so much what you say but how you listen. There’s not just paying attention. There’s a how to listening that people feel comfortable with you.

Eddie Turner:

Now, along those lines of how you listen, how you pay attention, as I mentioned earlier, I had the opportunity to be a part of your inaugural Coach Mastery Workshop and it was a phenomenal experience and I have used a lot of what I’ve learned since the completion of that program but there’s one thing that you said get that I continue to repeat. In fact, I was interviewed for a program in Asia just yesterday and I cited this. You said that when we were talking about mastery, we were all thinking about the skills and different techniques and whatnot, you said that mastery is not the perfection of skills. It is the deepening of presence. How does one deepen their presence? I know the answer because you already told us but for my listeners, how do we do that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, it’s not just in coaching, Eddie, that being very present with people so we can truly hear what they’re saying and what they’re expressing and what they’re not saying but when you think about any sport, the best know how to shift into the moment and be fully present and not be distracted by anything else. It’s called in the zone. And it was years ago I was working with a sports psychologist where I was asked to come up with a formula for anybody to be in the zone no matter what it is they’re doing. And so in order to pull yourself into the present moment, the first thing you have to do is relax your body. Most people think it’s about self talk and none of the top athletes that I worked with for that program said that they used self talk. They said “If I say to myself “Oh, you’re a winner, you’re a winner,” then the back of my brain goes “No, you’re not. You’re a loser.”” And that’s when they choke. They said they had to breathe out, release the tension in their body so then they can access their brain, go to their brain, clear their mind and quickly put their awareness in the center of their body. In martial arts they call this your point of strength. It’s just below your navel. And all of the athletes said that “When I’m aware of what’s going on in my body is when I can do my best.” So that awareness of our core, that center, the bottom of your breath, that if you keep your awareness there and stay out of your head, you’re much more control. So you relax your body, clear your mind, put your awareness in the center of your body and then I add in that we don’t stay in our center that long so you anchor your thoughts with one or two words. So in coaching it’s often “I’m curious and I care.” It could be “I’m common courageous.” It could be “I’m determined.” Whatever it is that you want to feel in that moment, you choose as those words so every time you start going back to your chatty brain, you just think “How I want to feel and you breathe in curious and care. And it brings you into this present moment with the person that you’re with. And what’s so powerful about that? Not only will you listen to them better but when you’re present, they feel safe with you. And creating psychological safety is the most important thing we can do in our conversations in order to have them be effective so people feel that they can open to you, they can discuss things that aren’t comfortable. They have to feel safe. So being present helps people to feel safe with you.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. And thank you for that point of clarification as well because, yes, you taught us that in a coaching context but I thought it was also apropos here in the conversational context that we’re discussing. So thank you for outlining that. In fact, I felt a moment of Zen almost come over me as you were explaining that. My way back too because that was the first time I heard it, 1993 or in the ‘90s I should say, with Michael Jordan and The Bulls because that that was my hero growing up from basketball perspective. So Michael Jordan had a game there against the Portland Trailblazers. He was not known for shooting the three-point shot but at that game he broke the finals record for three-pointers because he hit six three-pointers. Michael Jordan was not known for shooting three-pointers but he went on to set the finals record by hitting six three-pointers and he blew away the Trailblazers in that first game. And there’s this moment they play all the time where he kind of shrug his shoulders. You can’t see me doing this but he shrugs his shoulders as if to say he looks at the sideline and says “I don’t know what’s going on.” And they asked him afterwards and described being in the zone. It was a similar ability he talked about in the game against the Celtics when he went off for 63 points. And so, yes, that context is the first time I heard it. And so seeing how we can get into the zone, not just in the sports world or in a coaching world, but in our daily conversations where we want to have an impact as leaders.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Right. Yeah, they’re good teachers.

Eddie Turner:

Very good teachers, yes.

So, Marcia, we’re having this conversation and many of these points have come from your book Outsmart Your Brain and The Discomfort Zone but you’re working on a new book. Can you tell us about that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Right. It doesn’t have such a catchy title as the other two. It’s called The Coach’s Guide to Reflective Inquiry.

Eddie Turner:

The Coach’s Guide to Reflective Inquiry, okay.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

And I’m very proud of this book. I’ve been teaching coaching skills for over 20 years and I can now say that there are certain things missing that when people learn coaching is like they think it’s all about the question. It’s not all about the question. I call it the cult of the powerful question, that there’s far more to coaching than just asking questions. In fact, my favorite quote from a guy named John Dewey who wrote a book called How We Think that defined coaching in 1910. He said that questions seek answers but inquiry provokes insight.

Eddie Turner:

Say that one more time. I want to just isolate that.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Questions seek answers but inquiry provokes insight.

Eddie Turner:

I love it.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

So inquiry is not just about asking questions. There’s a lot more to it. And he’s the one who defined reflective inquiry. So what is the reflective part in how are we missing that and what are some of the coaching myths that are out there? And this is for coaches but it’s for leaders as well because using a coaching approach to your conversations are going to be far more effective in getting the results you want.

Eddie Turner:

Well, I am so happy to share that and I will also say this, that you don’t know that I’m going to say, is you have an article on your website entitled Stop Trying To Ask Good Questions and it’s in the blog section and OutsmartYourBrain.com. And I share this with people because one of the things you were working with me on is getting out of my head and to stop trying to ask good questions. If people would like to get a little bit of a sneak peek into some of your wisdom and what you’ve taught around this, you’ve written a wonderful article that everyone has access to.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Absolutely. Well, actually, my last few blog posts were directly from the upcoming book. It was helping me sort through what I was writing. There’ll be more to come.

Eddie Turner:

Isn’t that a nice teaser? So that is a book written by a coach for coaches, it sounds like. And can other leaders benefit from this if they’re not a coach?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, absolutely. I teach leaders coach to leaders around the world and it’s becoming accepted. I mean even Google has coaching skills as their number one leadership skill.

Eddie Turner:

How about that?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, and leaders need to know how to coach. I actually think this simplifies coaching. I think so many leaders, they don’t have time to do that but what I’m giving them is this is not going to take much time. If you follow what I write in the book, you’re going to find that coaching is much easier than you think, especially if you’re not sitting there thinking “Oh, what’s the question I should ask you?” It’s not about that. It’s just about “I’m listening to you. I receive what you give me and I just give it back to you.” So I’m going to simplify coaching for leaders in this book.

Eddie Turner:

I love it. I can’t wait to get my hands on a copy of that. And I agree with that premise, obviously, and I also teach a program that is not directed for folks who want to become a certified coach. They’re just leaders, managers, HR folks who are interested in having coaching skills and that program is for the Association for Talent Development, their coaching certificate program. So it is an important skill. And to your point, organizations at all levels are seeing that this is an important skill set to have. Interesting to know that Google considers it number one. I didn’t know that. So, thank you for sharing that tip.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Yeah, in their oxygen study they came up with that was the number and skill and I think emotional intelligence was number three.

Eddie Turner:

How about that? Two in-demand skills that a lot of folks are talking about and a lot of things are being written about but it still seems to be an invasive skill that folks have yet to attain to the level they’d like. So certainly people like you, your work both as a practitioner and also as a thought leader who’s putting these things down in writing go a long way in helping us all improve.

So, Marcia, tell us, if you would, what is the main point you want our listeners to take away from our conversation today.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, I think you and I have discussed a number of times the importance of being present, that people won’t even listen to you if they don’t sense that you’re fully present with them. So whether it’s setting your emotional tone, remembering who you are as a leader to put the person in high regard that you have to create this what I call a safety bubble where they feel safe with you and that’s based in your presence.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that, Marcia. And since this is the Keep Leading Podcast, we like to give leaders a quote that they can reflect on to help them keep leading. Do you have a quote you’d like to share?

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

They want you to be present more than they need you to be perfect.

Eddie Turner:

Okay, wonderful. They want you to be present more than they want you to be perfect. What a nice thing for us to remember as leaders as we keep leading.

Marcia, where can my leaders learn more about you? I’ve enjoyed this conversation. I hate to stop.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Well, of course, my website which, thank you, you’ve mentioned because I do have a blog there. The website site is OutsmartYourBrain.com. So they can go there. They can find all my books I’ve written there. There are a lot of free resources other than the blog. There are videos. And if they look under The Discomfort Zone, they’ll find all kinds of tools and resources that they can use. Of course I’m on LinkedIn. I write for Psychology Today. So they can find me around the internet.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Yes, you are available everywhere. There’s something else I want folks to know and that is that you recently delivered a stellar TED Talk. And so we want folks also look for How To Use Anger As A Force For Good and this will be in the show notes and a link to that will also be on the page I create for you on my side as well.

So, Marcia, thank you for being a guest on the Keep Leading Podcast.

Dr. Marcia Reynolds:

Thank you, Eddie, for having me. I truly enjoyed the conversation.

Eddie Turner:

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator.In the world of leadership development, there are many options for developing leaders. Today I want to talk about how leaders can support leaders using an approach pioneered by Dr. Dorothy Siminoivtch – Gestalt Coaching And Awareness IQ. Dr. Siminovitch is one of the few Master Certified coaches in the world through the International Coaching Federation. So she truly is an authority on this subject and she will talk to us about this subject right after this.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact.In the world of leadership development, there are many options to help leaders develop. Today, I want to talk about leaders supporting leaders using an approach pioneered by Dr. Dorothy Siminoivtch – Gestalt Coaching And Awareness IQ. Dr. Dorothy Siminoivtch is an author, a speaker, and an international leadership team and organizational coach. She is also an International Coach Federation mentor coach. She is the founder and director of training for the Gestalt Coaching Program and a co-owner of the Gestalt Center for Coaching. Dr. Siminovitch is the author of the book we’ll be talking about today – A Gestalt Coaching Primer: The Path Toward Awareness IQ. She’s also coauthor of the Awareness 2020 Leadership Awareness Instrument.

I am so excited to have with me today all the way from Canada Dr. Dorothy Siminovitch. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Thank you so much, Eddie.

Please tell my listeners a little bit about your background, Dr. Siminovitch.

Thank you again and please call me Dorothy. And to everybody, hello. So I am from originally Montreal, Quebec, which is eastern part of Canada and is considered the French part of Canada. And somewhere early in my adulthood I got married and moved to Cleveland, Ohio, did my graduate training there and started my professional career. And it really is in Cleveland at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland that I had the wherewithal, this moment of true inspiration to blend Gestalt Thinking which was mostly used in the world of therapy or consulting to marry it to coaching as a vehicle to serve leaders and those people that really wanted to add better quality to their life. So for the past 20 years I would say that I’ve been really going around the world, a lot in Istanbul, Turkey, and teaching Gestalt Coaching to those who want to learn how to be an executive coach and also an applied coach but mostly those who want to learn how to be executive coaches to leaders who carry so much importance in our world and also mystery about how to serve them. It’s a little bit about me. I live part time in Toronto, sometime in Cleveland and a little bit in Istanbul.

All right. Well, you get around.

It’s quite lucky, I think.

Well, I feel quite fortunate to have met you. I met you just a short time ago because you and Dr. Marcia Reynolds ran a coach mastery workshop there in Canada where you live. And it was one of the most transformational events of my life. And I don’t say that lightly.

Thank you. It honors me to hear you say that. And it was a wonderful workshop. It was our inaugural version of those people really wanting to take their coaching to a higher level of mastery. We were thrilled that you came and the group that arrived. We say that those that came were the right people. Thank you.

It really was and we are all still connected and still meeting and messaging each other and helping each other continue to grow that level of mastery and it was a fantastic workshop. And so got a chance to meet you. And you are truly not only a global thought leader in coaching and one of the premier experts, especially in gestalt, but you’re just a down-to-earth, warm genuine person. And so you really melted our hearts and you really gave us outside of your expertise deeper reasons to feel connected to you and model ourselves as executive coaches and leaders after your leadership.Now, something else I neglected to say that is pretty important about what you do is you’re not just a regular executive coach. Can you explain to my listeners the level of coaching credential you hold?

Yes, I’m glad to be able to say that I’m a Master Certified coach through the ICF, which I think is designed to stand for the best that we can do with level of certification.

And so for those who may not know, ICF is the International Coach Federation, the largest and the most recognized credentialing organization in the world. So to hold the MCC, that’s not a light credential. It is the top credential. And not only do you hold an MCC which less than 1% of coaches in the globe have, how long have you held that MCC?

Well, you’re asking the big question. 2004. Actually, I applied in 2004. I think I got it in 2005. Every three years you have to renew your credential. And to do that you need to take 40 hours of coach training. And, again, I think that’s a commitment to ongoing learning. They say the expert sees but the novice always sees with fresh eyes. And I think no matter what level of mastery we have, we have to keep asking ourselves “Am I still learning?” I’ve renewed four times since getting the credential and I have a PhD and I think I’m just as proud, if not prouder, of the MCC. Isn’t that interesting?

It is very interesting and I says a lot about the rigor and the prestige that credential holds for you to say that. So, yes, not only are you one of the top coaches in the world but you’ve held that credential almost as long as it has existed. And so that’s not something to take lightly. That’s a pretty powerful thing to be able to say and all the more so why that workshop you and Marcia Reynolds held was so important and so pivotal for those of us who are privileged to attend because we were able to learn from to the best in the world but there’s something about you that stretches outside of just general coaching and your credential as a coach. You took things to another level and you’ve pioneered something where you married two worlds – coaching and, as you mentioned in your introduction, the practice of gestalt. So can you tell us what is gestalt coaching?

Well, in some ways you gave the answers. It’s two worlds that come together. The first world is really this new world, it’s now some 20-22 years old basically within coaching. What is coaching? It is a collaborative encounter between the client and the coach in service of the client’s learning agenda, very democratic learning experience, which is very needed in today’s very demanding world but gestalt thinking has been around for actually some 80 years, even a little longer, with the early studies in perceptual psychology. And gestalt thinking has been mostly used in the world of therapy or consulting. And I had the kind of moment of, I would call it, entrepreneurial rumination, where I truly envisioned gestalt married to coaching because gestalt thinking allows us in the coaching experience to understand the person and a whole system approach from an analytical approach, from the emotional approach, from the heart-centered approach, and also from the somatic approach. So it’s a way of being able, literally as a coach if you have gestalt training, to see the client in multiple dimensions. You see them from what you’re noticing but you also use yourself as an instrument to kind of get a sense of “What am I noticing about the client that’s standing out?” based on perceptual cues, somatic cues, emotional cues, and behavioral cues. And all of that has actual conceptual theory and tools from the Gestalt approach that assists us in reading the client. That’s pretty powerful. And when I say reading the client, Eddie, I don’t play cards but those people who play cards, think really about poker, it’s kind of an analogy, people that play poker are able to read other people whether they’re holding good cards or holding bad cards. This is kind of something they called a tell. I love those stories about that but that’s a very kind of interesting way of understanding the gestalt approach. We get trained and begin to understand ways of reading our clients based on the tell which could be perceptual, which could be emotional cues. The face, the eyes, the mouth, the movements gives us a sign what’s happening that we can read the kind of are they interested, we can read that, are they not interested, we can read that. Something just happen, no matter what they’re saying that we need to pay attention to because something shifted for them. Again, it’s something very small but we can be actually reading that based on these kind of cues that we get if we’re really trained from gestalt systems thinking.

Thank you. Now, there’s a couple of phrases you used I’d to break down just a little bit for our audience. Can you tell me where the word ‘gestalt’ comes from?

Yeah. No, it’s that question everyone always asks, Eddie, because it’s a German word. Gestalt is a German word that means the whole. And it’s pretty mainstream. People always use this phrase “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.” When we think of a face, you see the face, even if maybe you’re missing some feature of the face, you’ll be able to recognize someone’s face based on their eyes, the whole from a feature, or you just see the outline of a person’s face, the whole, you may not even see the mouth, you go “Okay, that’s Eddie’s head” because we actually think in wholes. So isn’t it interesting? You hear a little bar from music and you’re able to name that tune. Some people can name it in a very short bar. Some people need a whole cord because we actually fill in what we think is missing to get the whole. And gestalt is that concept that really describes that. So if you think of this phrase “Give me a picture of what you’re talking about,” that’s a gestalt. So when we say “What’s your gestalt?”, we’re saying “What’s your picture of this situation? What’s your gestalt of this issue? What’s your picture of this issue?” If you think about a picture is more than 1000 words, the idea of “What’s your gestalt?” means there are so many parts. It captures the so many parts of the whole. And the reason people keep saying “What does it mean?” is because the word gestalt stays German. So people keep saying “Well, what is it?”

Yes, yes. So I wanted to make sure we just gave a little bit more clarification around that. And I love your illustrations on how you brought that to life.And then another phrase you were using, and for those who may not be in the coaching world, they may not readily recognize it and that was ‘Somatic’.

Yes. Well, the idea of being able to read a person’s kind of relevance of what’s happening in the moment or even their character based on the way they’re standing and moving. We know that the way a person stands already conveys a lot about their life story. Do they stand a little bit forward and slouched over? Do they stand backwards and kind of apprehensively waiting? Right there we can already tell a story. They say that biology, the way that you’re feeling about something becomes biography. So somatic gives us kind of the eyes of being able to recognize what’s going on with a person just by how they are embodied, how they’re standing, how they’re sitting, how they’re eating, how they’re looking. It’s the embodiment that we start reading or I would say this, the lack of embodiment. Someone says to you “I really care about something” and you hear the voice and you go “Okay” but then they say “I really care about something” and you think “Where are they?” Because you don’t hear that in the voice, they’re not embodied in their voice. The somatic tells us kind of at a visceral level what’s happening.

Yes. And so as coaches we’re trained in that and it’s something that benefits our client. How can that benefit leaders? If they’re not a coach, how can they benefit from this discussion that we’re having?

Wonderful. I think that in the last probably, really it’s been about since the ‘90s when Daniel Goldman wrote his Emotional Intelligence, and many people would always know emotions are important but in organizations and leaders emotions were considered to be troublesome in the way. And in the last 25 years there has been a paradigm shift of really recognizing that those soft skills, the soft cues, the emotional intelligence which is the intelligent use of your emotions, being able to become more self aware of that is so critical in being able to both manage yourself, be self aware, and also understand and work with people. So that’s where if I can read my emotional cues, then I understand what’s going on with me. And not only that, I will then be more able, if I can read myself, I will be more able in reading other people. And if I can read other people, it’s kind of like a line. I can then talk with them about where they are and more thoughtfully. And this is the awareness intelligence piece. If I’m aware of myself and I can read you, I then can use my awareness to maybe deliver my message with more understanding if they want to ask you to do something but I am aware that something about you either looks tired or distracted, instead of just giving the order or they request, I may even say “I’m going to ask you for something I’m not sure if this is the best time but I’d like to ask you given everything that’s going on. Would that be okay?” I might deliver my message as a leader with more thoughtfulness and more understanding of what’s happening in the moment that nothing else could give me except my emotional capacity to read the situation. And, Eddie, for so many business leaders, that really is the underdeveloped side. What do we notice in business leaders? We notice that most business leaders arrive at being a leader because they have analytical skills, they have strategy skills, they have deliverable skills, execution skills. And where do they need to develop themselves? The soft side of being able to read people, and here’s the other thing, read themselves.

Yes, yes.

And they have not really gone to school for that. And as a person becomes higher in their leadership status, what we know is that syndrome of more and more people telling them less and less.

Yes.

Yes, lonely at the top is an old syndrome that we know about but we see it enacted all the times where people would say, and I have clients who tell me, “Well, nobody tells me.” Well, they’re afraid to tell you. And also are you aware of your signals? Are you aware of your emotions? And this is where I think that we as coaches particularly, how do we co-create a very safe learning environment for our leaders, because leaders have so much pressure put on them to be strong and to take risks but not fail. Well, that’s a very impossible situation.

Yes.

Where is a safe environment for them to have kind of a dress rehearsal of “How could I look at that in a second way so that I don’t feel so naked publicly?”?

Very interesting. Wow! Thank you for sharing that and getting us off to a great start here, Dorothy. I’m enjoying this discussion with Dr. Dorothy Siminovitch and she’s talking to us about gestalt coaching and how we use this to help leaders support leaders.We’re going to pause for a word from our sponsors at this time and we’ll be back right after this.

We’re back. We’re talking to Dr. Dorothy Siminovitch and she is telling us about gestalt coaching and how leaders can more effectively lead other leaders.And so before the break, Dorothy, you were explaining the details about what gestalt coaching is, where it comes from, and why it matters for leaders and how it really is a leadership competency that you’re building in the folks that you run through your organization. And so we talked about the definition that your book was based on but there’s something else that you share in your book that I’d like to talk about. And you have come up with this phrase about Awareness IQ. What is Awareness IQ?

Well, thank you. I think, again, I’d like to identify what I think is happening as a paradigm shift in the world where it’s always been important to get knowledge and it still is but one of the things that we understand today that drives knowledge is in the moment we may have to be adaptive because even existing knowledge presumes history, something that we know and it’s already kind of formed and we have knowledge about something but the knowledge that we have may not have met the current circumstances that we are facing. And the current circumstance in the moment may have some emergent issue that the only way to recognize is through this phenomena called Awareness. Awareness is a knowing in the moment of something that is emerging that maybe we know something about or we recognize as something. And one of the pieces about awareness now is how do I recognize something in the moment and use that to deliver the knowledge or adapt the knowledge to meet the moment. And so, the example I could give is let’s say a business leader goes into a meeting and he or she has a message to deliver. Communication is one of the key deliverables of any leader, how to deliver this message, and they have the text really identified. And as they go into the meeting, what they kind of get a sense of is they can feel something is perhaps not quite right. They notice that people have a look on their faces, no one’s really looking at each other, and people aren’t even asking questions. That doesn’t seem to be the same strong greeting that he or she typically gets. And one of the cues that are coming is “Something is going on.” Now if time is tight, many leaders with good cause would say “Okay, this is the message I’m going to give” but later on they can go back and say “What was I missing? Why didn’t I ask “Okay, guys, let’s take a moment. I feel something is happening. Could everybody make a statement what’s going on here like an awareness statement?” And the reason I say that is it may be later on we realize something was going on in that meeting. And if the business leader didn’t ask or raises kind of sense of “I’m picking up some data in myself” or “I have a feeling. I’d like to check it out,” they may have missed a moment that was very authentic, it was very important, and perhaps creates more safety for the team to ask that question. So Awareness IQ is being able to recognize the kind of awareness cues that you’re getting either in yourself or something that you scan for the environment and acting on it. And when we don’t act on a cue that we have a sense of, later on we will feel regret like “Why didn’t I ask her? Why didn’t it offer?” And there’s a saying that it’s the things that we don’t do that we felt strongly about that we most regret later more often than what we did do that we’re sorry for.

Now, is there a way for me to identify my level of Awareness IQ?

Yes, actually. Well, I joined ventured with Barbara Singer of Executive Core and we created an inventory called the Awareness 2020 which I’m so proud to say was created off of the dimensions that I articulated in my book, Eddie. I’m almost embarrassed to say I’m talking about my book before you asked but the book that I wrote, Gestalt Coaching Primer, one of the reasons why I wrote it was most authors who had written about gestalt thinking, and they were always brilliant, they always wrote in a very intense style. And one of the things that I wanted to do with Gestalt Coaching Primer was to make it very easy to read because the material of gestalt thinking is actually there’s so many dimensions that are happening at once, people can get confused. And so I wrote this chapter on something called ‘Presence and Use Of Self’ and that is “Who am I and how do I use myself in the moment?” And how I use myself is kind of a response to your question. How I use myself has to do with my own sense of “Do I know what my gifts are? Do I know what my limitations are? Can I recognize awareness across what I say seven dimensions?”The first dimension is the dimension of values and recognition of what’s important for me and for others. The second dimension of awareness is the dimension of creativity. We see things that are novel. Can we recognize what’s exciting and novel or do we just closed down? That’s an awareness dimension. The third dimension is the dimension of emotional intelligence which we’ve been hearing about but we keep hearing about it because it’s so important to recognize. A lot of people, when it’s too emotional, they go “Oh, too much” is a phrase I often hear but I say to people “Can you handle that? Are you able to hold the space for emotion?” The fourth dimension of awareness is the capacity for caring. Do you recognize when you need to care for yourself or other people need maybe more support and care? A huge issue that we’re hearing about in organizations today is the need for compassion, compassion around the things that we can’t change but a stance of compassion is so supportive to people. And so many people actually go “No, I’m going to save that for my family.” We say that really great leaders have emotional awareness around the need for compassion. The fifth dimension is the capacity for communication, recognizing the moment where something needs to be said or acknowledged. Communication is a critical awareness competency. The sixth competency is the issue of intuition. Can we recognize just a flash of intuition which is data that you have arrived at without hard work? And it’s interesting there’s new recognition of the need for intuition. You know why, Eddie?

Tell me.

Yeah, intuition is this sense of something that we need in an high age of uncertainty. So intuition was not something people really wanted to hear about in the ‘30s, the ‘40s, and the ‘50s. And lately we’re hearing a lot about your intuitive sense because there’s so much uncertainty in the world. And there’s actually intuition training that people can take, which is important because if people are trying to say “I have an intuition” but really is an agenda, that’s an opportunity for dishonesty. How’s that for interesting? I know that’s a huge sentence right there.

No, that’s very interesting because some people might argue or may wonder is the gift of intuition unique to one gender over another. You said there’s training but has your research shown that one group has stronger intuition than another?

I can’t answer that one but I can tell you something else. I can tell you that it seems to be something with birth orders. So my colleague Belleruth Naparstek wrote a lovely book called Your Sixth Sense and it turns out the middle or youngest child can be more intuitive than the oldest child because the oldest child typically has to follow the rules. And when you have to follow the rules, you don’t listen to your inner voice as much.

So that explains why my sister is so much more intuitive and smarter than me. I get it now, okay.

By the way, I’m not sure if she’s smarter but right now I am sure that you see her as more intuitive.

No question about it.

Isn’t it interesting that that’s behind your question man-female because your sister you already knew is more intuitive? Thank you.

No, that wasn’t behind the question but I know that at times when you were talking about certain skills like this and we’re talking about emotional intelligence, there’s been different research showing that one gender might exceed another but also that’s like the number one question that we get in our coaching process. When I’m talking about emotional intelligence or the ability for empathy and some of the different components of emotional intelligence, people always ask “Well, as a man, can I still do well in this area?” or sometimes “Is this only something that I can do if I’m a female?” So I asked that from that perspective of what genuine questions I’ve received as a coach.

Well, first of all, I so appreciate that you’re asking and I do think it’s already, I know something about you and your sister, but I would say something to add to that is I do think that the challenge for men to use themselves in this way, I would just say, even though I’m not a man, my dissertation was actually on male generativity. So I must have been very interested in male leadership because at the time when I was coming up and doing my research, there were more male leaders in the world and I was just really fascinated. And I do think that the shoulds that men receive about allowing yourself to be vulnerable which is this new wow in the world, Renee Brown who talks about vulnerability is courage, well, for many men it also feels uncomfortable like there was no support for it. And yet that’s what the new call for that is because we know that it communicates authenticity to people. It says “I am like you. I also suffer if my child is not well, if there’s illness in my family.” And yet for men that’s probably a challenge. For women there is a different challenge about how to maybe package our emotional cues without this kind of stereotype that puts out “Well, it’s female thinking.” In fact, when someone says “This could be me. I’m a female,” I always say “Stop.” How do you frame it as an opportunity but once we start focusing on the gender, what happens is we get sometimes exclusionary. How do we become expansive and say “Yes, I know this is maybe I’m speaking as a female.” And what do all the men think or how do the men access? One of the things we know from the great Carl Jung is he said that as people get older at midlife that men tend to kind of bring up more of their feminine energies or they allow themselves to bring forward their softer side. And interestingly enough, as women come into midlife, they go the other side and pull up their more male forces. And it’s interesting as women come more into the work world, the male forces really help them manage and negotiate the world. So I would just say for the men and the women, we learn so much from each other’s genders, rather than exclude we include.

Yes, very much so. And to the extent that we can do that we become a better leader and certainly a better society.There’s something else that I learned a lot about in your program, your workshop. You talked a lot about presence and you talk about that a lot in your book as well. Can you tell us how presence helps leaders?

One of the things about it is everybody has a presence. You, me, anyone listening, we all have presence. The question is how embodied in our presence are we. So, so often as we review the day and we think about how we were somewhere and we think “What was going on with me that I was so distracted, that I wasn’t there?” And so one of the aspects about presence is “How am I here embodied in all of my strengths and responsible for my limitations but available to this moment?” And one of the things that we know when people are really present, they are more available to use their resources in the moment to support, and we like to say, what is wanted, needed or missing. And so this is the real reason, Eddie, that mindfulness now as a phenomenon is really growing in the world and particularly in the business world. Some five years ago there was a World Economic Forum in Davos, global business leaders come there, and there was a workshop on meditation and mindfulness. It was kind of well attended but the next year nobody could get into that room because leaders now understand that actually someone by the name of Anthony Grant says “It’s not efficiency that we’re really after. It’s the management of attention.”

Yes.

And the job of a leader is to help people focus on something. And so the management of attention is a management of focus. And presence is the embodiment of focus. And how can we be in the moment in a way that we are present? When we are present, people will feel more engaged with us. When we are distracted and not present, people feel like “Hey, you’re not there. Why should I be here?”

Absolutely.

Absolutely. So presence is this ability to be here and now and more available to be engaged with you. And here’s the other thing. There’s this phenomena called Mirror Neurons. I won’t get into the whole neuroscience of it but basically it means that people are always picking up the cues in themselves about you. If you’re present, they will be more present with you. And right there that is a business case for presence.

There you go, I love it. And it shows true leadership when a person is able to do that and incorporate that into their leadership style.You talk about so many wonderful things in your book. So that definition that we opened up with, Awareness IQ, Presence, all of those things are applicable to anyone in a leadership role and certainly for those who are leaders trying to help other leaders but, specifically, if you are individual listening to this episode and you are a coach or you are thinking of become a coach, specifically certified through the International Coach Federation, you want to have a copy of this book because I believe that there are several tools in here from Coaching Agreements to Coaching Competencies to Markers that you need to look for if you’re trying to pass your certification. Dorothy has packed it all in here. This is just a phenomenal resource. And so I enjoyed it and I think that anyone listening will enjoy it as well.

Thank you.

So how would you summarize our conversation today, Dorothy?

Well, first of all, I think you’re a great speaker, let me just say. I would say that for the record, and very inviting, but I would add in terms of where and what relevance does awareness and Awareness IQ and being more mindful and present mean for the leader and for the executives who coach leader because choice happens in the moment. And our challenge today is to know how to use the moment. They say that history is past and future has not arrived at the moment we have is where people feel more awake and have choice. The great Maya Angelou, poet, said “I may not remember what you said but I will remember what you made me feel.” It is our capacity to use the moment that allows us to support people’s feeling and remembering – Were we engaged in the moment or were we distracted? And I say that because all of us can really learn to be mindful and stronger and being able to use the moments. And the moments are what our lives are created out of. So I would just say there’s a good case to be made for that.And the takeaway, if you may allow me, for today, Eddie, may I offer that?

Sure, please.

The takeaway is many years ago Carl Jung said that everybody was going to become more psychological. I would say that everybody needs to understand themselves and each other and more urgently because the world is so intensely demanding but I think that there is a case for awareness because awareness is what drives choice. And when we know that we have awareness, we know we have choice. So my mantra is awareness without action can lead to regret. And I would say for anyone listening what are the awareness moments that you would like to commit to taking action on that lead to more satisfaction.

Awareness without action leads to regret. Well, thank you for sharing that. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you today. Where can my listeners learn more about you?

They could know more about me at GestaltCoachingWorks.com. We are redoing our website but that would be a lovely place to get in contact with me or at DorothySiminovitch.com. And I thank you for the invitation.

Well, thank you. We will put that in the show notes so that folks can reach out to you, connect with you, and follow you in all of the great things you’re accomplishing across the globe with the different communities that you are helping develop their credentials and spreading the power of coaching around the globe.Thank you for being on the Keep Leading Podcast.

Eddie, thank you for the invitation. And to all of you listeners, I thank them for their attention and their awareness. Thank you.

Thank you.And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.