Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact.I first learned about my guest today as an adult who went back to school to finish his undergraduate degree. I went to Northwestern University and I was introduced to Aileen Baird. She was one of the toughest professors around and she really challenged me and left a lasting impact on me. Part of that impact was introducing me to the work of Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. She introduced me to the book What Got You Here Won’t Get You There and it instantly resonated with me. I became a Marshall Goldsmith fan and a follower of his work as a result of Aileen Baird. Fast forward about 10 years and I found myself going into the world of coaching. And as part of my certification training, I was again and required to read the book What Got You Here Won’t Get You There.

Dr. Marshall Goldsmith is the world authority in helping successful leaders achieve positive lasting change in behavior for themselves, their people, and their teams. He is recognized as the number one leadership thinker and the number one executive coach in the world. He has more than 1.5 million followers on LinkedIn alone and this makes him a true LinkedIn influencer. He is the author of 39 books, including New York Times bestsellers Triggers, Mojo, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, and How Women Rise. He sold more than 2.5 million copies of those books around the world. So, I am truly excited to have with me today Dr. Marshall Goldsmith.

Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s my pleasure.

Please tell us a little bit more about you.

Well, I was born in Kentucky. I went to school in Indiana. I got a PhD at UCLA Anderson School. I was as a college professor and dean when I was young. And I do three things. I give talks or teach classes. I travel all around the world speaking and teaching. I’ve been to 102 countries and on American Airlines alone, I have over 11 million frequent flyer miles. And I write books and articles, as you mentioned. I’ve actually now done 41. So, I’ve done a lot of books and articles. And then I’m famous for coaching people. I’ve been coaching CEOs of Ford, Pfizer, Latrobe, World Bank, Mayo Clinic, Walmart and so on and on and on. And what I learned about coaching, I’m sure you’ve found the same thing, is I learned so much. In theory, we’re supposed to teach them when in practice, I was learning from what I teach.

And when you say you learn from what you teach, Dr. Goldsmith, what would you say is the biggest lesson you’ve learned through your amazing career as a coach?

I’m often asked what’s the key to being a great coach. And the key to being a great coach is great customers. In my coaching, I have a very unique system. I don’t get paid if my clients don’t get better. And better is not judged by me or them. It’s judged by everyone around them. So, you can tell if a person really believes what they’re saying, ask them one question – “Want to bet on it?” – “I believe it but I wouldn’t bet on it.” I don’t believe it but since here’s the money, they believe it. I bet on this every time. When you get paid for results, you learn humility. The client I coached and I spent the most amount of time with didn’t improve at all and they paid. The client I coached and spent the least amount of time was improved more than anyone I’ve ever coached, 200 people got better and I didn’t get paid. So, I made a chart. I have a degree in mathematics. I made a chart. One dimension was called ‘Time Spent with Executive Coach Marshall Goldsmith’. The other dimension was called ‘Improvement’. There seemed to be a clear negative correlation between spending time with me and getting better. I thought it’s troubling chart. So, I got to talk to my friend who improved the most and I spent the least amount of time with. He and I are working on a book together now. His name was Alan Mullaly. Alan was CEO of Ford, CEO of the Yean in the United States in 2014, ranked Number Three Greatest Leader in the Whole World, just an amazing man and just a good friend of mine. I talked to him just an hour or two ago. So, I go to my friend Alan and I said “Alan, of all people I coached, I spent the least amount of time with you and you improved the most.” I showed Alan my chart. I said “Alan, the way this chart looks, if you never met me, you’d really been good.” I said “What should I learn about coaching from you?” Well, he taught me two great lessons. He said “Number one, your biggest challenge as coach is called customer selection. If you pick great customer, your coaching process always works. If you pick the wrong customer, your coaching process will never work.” Then he said “Never make the coaching process about yourself and your own ego and how smart you think you are. Make it about those great people you work with and how proud you are of them and how hard they work.” Well, these are such great lessons and that has totally changed my life, really got me focused on helping great people. I always got ranked number one coach. Why? Nobody watched me coach anybody. Oh, you got ranked number one coach because you got great clients who sound great.

How about that? So, the secret to being a great coach is picking great clients.

Let me give you an analogy. Let’s take a basketball team. One team is the All Stars. Another team is people who’ve never won. Which coach is probably going to win that game?

The team with the All Stars.

That’s generally the way it works. There’s only so much you can do as a coach. Ultimately, it’s up to them.

Well, that’s a really good analogy.

If they’re motivated and dedicated and want to get better, they’ll do it. And if they’re not, they won’t.

Excellent. So, Alan Mullaly, one of the premier CEOs who was successful, I believe, it was Boeing where he was at and before you went to Ford.

And then Ford, yes.

Yes, yes. So, he’s one of the examples of one of your best clients that you have achieved results with. And now you’re working on a new book. So, we will look forward to hearing more about that book in the near future and being able to read that.

Very exciting.

So, when we think about some of your works, I heard that you had 39, you told me now that the latest statistic is 41 books. If someone is being introduced to your work for the first time, is there a book that you think they should start with first?

Yeah, I would start with the one you did – What Got You Here Won’t Get You There – first.

Okay, excellent.

Then I’ll go to Triggers as the second. Those two books got ranked by Amazon in the Top 200 Leadership and Success books ever written in history. So, let’s start with those two.

All right.

Most of the 41 books that I’ve written or edited were purchased only by my mother, my father, and assorted relatives. So, unless you need some aid on how to go to sleep, I wouldn’t recommend a lot of my books.

Well, that means that you’ve got 2.5-million revenue sales because a lot of people have read them. And as an author myself, I don’t know how to even sell 1000 copies of your book. So, I’m obviously in awe of you and what you’ve been able to accomplish.

Thank you so much.

What Got You Here Won’t Get You There and Triggers are the two that we would recommend.

And then also, How Women Rise, I think, is an excellent book. That book is really good too.

Yes, I had the amazing privilege to interview your co-author for that book, who I just absolutely love, Sally Helgesen a couple of months ago and Sally said something, when I asked her about the genesis of that book, that I found very intriguing. Having read your book first, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, and at the time, I was not a coach. I just was an individual who was, in fact, at the time still an information technology professional but I was working with a lot of senior executives in major corporations. So, that’s why that book really appealed to me because of the behaviors I’ve seen and a belief system I had about kind of the way they should operate but I didn’t have a language for it. And certainly, I was an IT person. I didn’t even have the authority to even share with them what my view was. And so, your book really laid it out so nicely but then when I started to operate as a coach myself, I realized that some of the things that were there didn’t necessarily apply to female clients. And I started to get a lot of female clients.

Well, that’s the genesis of the book.

Okay. Tell me more.

Well, I mean, they’re really great books. And actually, I realized 85% of my clients have been men. Instead, that book tends to be more focused on issues that have been to women. And some of the issues men or women have are the same but some of them are different. Why don’t you get in Sally write to a book about how they’re different? That one call led to the book.

Wow! That is incredible. And for those who don’t know, Sally Helgesen is the world’s premier authority who pioneered women’s leadership before it was even popular. And so, that’s why I suggested you two get together.

Oh, yes. So, it was a really fortuitous thing. Sally and I have known each other for 25 years. So, we’re also old friends.

Wonderful. Wonderful. And that book is an incredible book. In fact, I’ve given that book to several clients and friends as a gift. And it really is making a difference in women’s lives. And so, How Women Rise is another book that we would definitely recommend people read.

And the three books I recommended – What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, Triggers, and How Women Rise – are all incredibly well-written books. Now, why can I say that without bragging? I didn’t write any of those books. What Got You Here Won’t Get You There and Triggers, they were written by my partner Mark Reiter. So, we have a partnership. I’m a thinker. I come up with the ideas. We talk, he writes, and then we do a book together. And I’m a very good writer. I’m not nearly as good writer is Mark Reiter. And the book How Women Rise was written by Sally. She’s a better writer than I am too. So, the three best books I’ve ever done have one thing in common. I didn’t write them.

So, Marshall, do I hear you tell there’s another algorithm that needs to be written about the amount of time?

Exactly. Have a great partner. I never thought about this but you made a great point. The secret of coaching is great client. The secret of writing is to find somebody who can write.

I love it. Excellent. Very good.Well, we’re talking to Marshall Goldsmith, the number one leadership thinker and the number one executive coach in the world. And we’ll have more with Marshall right after this.

Okay, we’re back. I have the honor of talking to the number one leadership thinker and the number one executive coach in the world today, Marshall Goldsmith. And by the way, he’s held that ranking for the last eight years. And we spent time before the break talking about Marshall’s amazing literary works that he’s produced over the years. And he gave us some really good advice.So, now we’re going to switch gears a little bit. We talked about Sally Helgesen. And Sally Helgesen and I later learned, Marshall, that I’ve interviewed now five people that are part of an amazing group and the amazing group they’re part of is the MG100 or Marshall Goldsmith’s 100 Coaches. Can you tell my listeners a little bit about what that program is?

Well, years ago, I went to a program called Design the Life You Love with Ayse Birsel, one of the world’s top designers. And she said “Who are your heroes?” And my heroes were kind and generous people who really taught me all I knew for free and didn’t expect much back, people like Paul Hersey, Peter Drucker, Ken Blanchard, Warren Bennis, Richard Beckhard, and Frances Hesselbein, just wonderful people. And she said “You should be more like those people?” I decided to teach people everything I know for free and the only price is when they get old, they had to do the same thing. So, I made a little video and put it on LinkedIn, little 30-second video and said “My name is Marshall. I got ranked number one leadership thinker, number one coach, number one book and getting old and I would adopt 15 people, teach them all I know for free, and the only price is when you get old, you have to do the same thing.” I thought maybe 100 people would apply. Turned out now over 18,000 people have applied. I’ve ended up adopting about 190. The group is called the MG100. It’s more than 100 now. It’s about 190. And, as you know, these are just amazing, amazing people who are really focused on giving back, helping each other, and have a positive sense of community together. It’s just been wonderful. By the way, we get two couples in the group who are in love.

Okay.

Hubert Joly, one of my good friends, who was CEO of Best Buy, he and [Inaudible][16:09] who is an author and consultant, they’re getting married.

How about that!

And Eric Schurenberg, he is head of Inc Magazine, [Inaudible][16:17], getting married, I think, to Alyssa who’s a number one startup coach. So, who knew? This has turned out to be a huge deal which was way beyond anything I might have ever dreamed of.

So, you brought together some of the world’s top coaches, top consultants and thinkers. And in addition to being the leadership coach, it sounds like you’re going to become the love doctor.

What’s amazing is if you look at some of the people, they’re not all in the traditional coaching world. For example, Chris Cuomo, he is CNN news. He’s one of the ones in our group. And today, I was just with Paul Gasol. Paul, I don’t know if you remember, played for the Lakers, NBA All Stars, probably going to be in the Hall of Fame. So, he wants to work now on how to help retiring athletes have a great life. So, he and I were on the phone for an hour today. Just a wonderful person. So, it’s been an amazing project.

Yes, there’s a big need for that as I have discovered because Houston, I learned because I was introduced to athletes here, is the number one hub of retired NBA players. And so, because of that, I was introduced to a couple of stars to help them and work with them. And I was blown away. I had no idea that such a need existed to help athletes transition from the competitive space to the corporate space or a life after sports. I assumed that there were already mechanisms in place for that but there isn’t. so, it’s great to hear that all Paul is filling that gap.

The numbers are awful. And, as bad as the NBA is, they’re 50% bankrupt in five or six years, about 90% divorced. The NFL Football League is worse.

Wow!

Their numbers are atrocious. By the way, some new people are joining our group along with Paul Gasol. Curtis Martin and Ray Lewis in the NFL.

Oh really?

Yeah, these guys were talking about their lives and how they want to help people now. Their lives are spent when they’re an athlete with total structure and control – “I have work out. I have to do this. I have to do that.” When that structure and control is taken away, a lot of them just revert back to very bad things. The other thing we’ve learned is they wasted their money. Evander Holyfield was worth 250 million bucks. He made 250 million in boxing. He is worth zero today.

I know that. That’s staggering.

It’s mind blowing. I mean, a lot of it is drugs, alcohol, cars, fancy homes. They would love this. I They gave the money away. Gave it away.

Well, that makes what Shaq has done even more impressive. And he said “It’s not about how much you make. It’s about how much you keep.”

That’s it. And a lot of them, a lot of their buddies come and say they were brought up poor. Their friends say “Look, I was your friend in the hood. And you’re worth 50 million bucks. All I need is 20,000.” And they say “Okay.” What happens after you give that guy 20,000? What happens next month?

He wants more.

He wants more. Then they retire and then they try to buy love sometimes and it doesn’t work. There’s an old song, great song by Billie Holiday – “Money, you got a lot of friends hanging around the door. When it’s gone and spend them in, they don’t come around no more.”

Not only am I getting wisdom from Marshall Goldsmith today, I got Marshall Goldsmith to serenade my audience. How about that?

There you go. I had no idea.

I love it.

So, back to our project. Paul Gasol, he wants to interview some of the members of our group. Jim Kim just left as head of the World Bank. Alan, as you mentioned, CEO of Ford, he talked about how are they doing their post-corporate lives. And it’s true for CEOs. It’s true for athletes, singers, all kinds of people.

Indeed. Also, the work that the MG 100is accomplishing is fantastic and it’s exciting to hear about some of these new members who have been added. And, in full disclosure, I am honored to have been one of the people you’ve added as a part of the group.

I love to have you in our group. I think you were officially sponsored by Gen. Tom Colditz. Is that correct?

Sally Helgesen.

Sally?

Sally.

I know you’ve been wanted by a lot of people.

Gen. Colditz definitely played a role as well but Sally sponsored and then Gen. Colditz, Howard Prager, and Frank Wagner also supported my nomination.

Well, I’m honored to have you as an honorary … You’re not my honorary son. You’re my honorary grandson. I have you as an honorary grandson and you got some new customs coming up. And if you have anybody giving you a hard time, Ray Lewis is your honorary cousin. I don’t know if you ever saw him but I don’t think you might be messing with him.

I’m looking forward to seeing him at our annual meeting. Yeah, having Ray Lewis behind you, that’s certainly fun.

I know. Stranger that it is, Chris Cuomo, the announcer, is one of the people. I was bragging about him to Ray Lewis and Ray was unimpressed.

Well, wonderful. Well, what do you think about the world of coaching? What advice do you have for coaches?

Well, my advice for coaches is you got to have great clients and don’t make it about your own ego. Also, though, very excited that you’re going to be joining us in January?

Absolutely. I would not miss it for the world.

You mentioned Alan Mullaly. I’m going to connect a few dots here. My friend Alan Mullaly and I just spent the first three hours in January talking about a brand-new coaching project that I think is going to revolutionize the whole field. What I’m doing and what he’s doing is we’re combining his leadership process, and he’s probably the greatest leader in this century, and my coaching process for making one process that applies from anything to an individual to a multibillion-dollar company.

Isn’t that interesting?

And you’ll be there.

Yes. Now, I’m really even more excited than I was already.

Obviously, I’m biased but I think it’s going to be fantastic. And he has put together a leadership system. I was his coach many, many years ago. He’s taken my coaching process, combined it with his leadership process, and I think this is taking coaching to a whole another level. And we’re really going to be talking about the impact of potentially using this process anywhere from one person up to, in his case, the multibillion-dollar corporation.

Wow! So, it’s scalable.

It’s totally scalable. And also, the key is for both Alan and for me it’s a process. I tell my clients “Look, I don’t get paid because I’m a good coach. I get paid because you’re a good customer. Don’t be making it about me. This is a process and if you follow the process, you will get better. And if you don’t follow the process, you probably won’t get better. And me being your coach or not coach is not the key variable.” Now, Eddie, I have a little bit of advantage as a coach. I say “If you don’t get better, it’s about you. It’s not about me” is kind of an implied message. “You see that book and those 50 big CEOs’ names? They all got better. They got better. So maybe if you don’t get better, one of us has a problem and it is you.”

Tough to argue with that.

Yeah. I am so excited about the new things we’re working on together and so excited that you’re going to be joining us in January. We’re going to spend three hours with this. Then Alan’s going to be there for two days. So, you’re going to get a chance to really interact with somebody who not only understands this from a coaching perspective but from a massive leadership perspective.

Well, I can’t wait. I can’t wait. So, let me ask this then. So, you gave us some more advice for coaches, then amplified what you said earlier, but what do you see is the future of coaching? Is it this process that you’re going to be introduced with Alan?

I’d say it is definitely the future because it’s basically looking at coaching from a whole different perspective. Let me just give you a couple of breakthrough ideas. We’ve been taught one thing. In your life, people say “Well, why is this stuff I teach so hard to do?” Well, one reason this is hard to do is, and I talked about this in my book What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, is you spent a whole life taking tests. You mentioned you went to Northwestern. You take tests. You take tests over and over and over again. What was the purpose of these tests? Prove how smart you were. You don’t have to prove how smart you are hundreds or thousands of times. It’s hard to stop. It’s very hard to stop this stuff. And, by the way, every time you proved you were smart, would you get toward positive recognition – “Oh, Eddie, you’re good. You’re smart. You get to go to this fancy school. Oh, look at you. You’re the smart one.” And how about if you didn’t get those tests right? – “Woo, very bad, very bad. Oh, not so good. Not so good at all.” We have been conditioned to prove how smart we are over and over and over again thousands of times in our lives. It’s hard to stop. And the higher up you go, the more you need to learn to stop. The other thing is every motivational speech sends the wrong message for leaders. What message do you get in any motivational speech? – “You can do it. You can do it. You can do it. You can do it” – but the problem is when you’re CEO, as Alan taught me, it’s not about you. It’s about them. It’s not if you can do it. It’s if this team can do it, this company can do it, they can do it. And it’s hard because we’ve been so conditioned, and even these leaders have talked about “I’m a servant leader and I empower people,” they’re just taking the problem and passing it down one level. So, now your top seven people all believe “I can do it. I can do it. It’s all about me.” No, no, it isn’t. It’s not all about you. It’s about this whole company. It’s about our stakeholders. It’s not all about you. And it’s because we’ve been brought up to believe that you have to be ashamed if you need help.

Yes.

You have to be ashamed if you don’t have all the answers. Well, Peter Drucker taught me about knowledge workers. Knowledge worker knows more about what they’re doing than their boss does. Everybody I work with manages knowledge workers. They know more than you. You can’t just tell them what to do and how to do it. You have to be a facilitator. You have to ask, you have to listen, you have to learn. And this is a big change. This is a big change. And, by the way, most coaches, you know what their philosophy is? “I’m going to sit there in the room and ask you questions and you’re going to come up with the answer from inside you.” That’s fine if you’re doing life coaching. What Alan want is when some guys got a bunch of cars backed up out in the Tundra because they got a part broken, they got to know what to do. Well, Alan’s asking them questions about life is not going to get the cars fixed, right?

Right.

You got to find somebody who knows what they’re doing and learn to ask them for help. When Alan first went to Ford, the company was losing 17 billion, billion with a B, dollars. The stock was down to $1.01 and the company was careening into bankruptcy. In his first meeting he had top 16 leaders and said “Okay, you’re going to give me your five top priorities Red, Yellow or Green – Green, we’re on plan; Yellow, we’re not on plan but we have a strategy; and Red, we’re not a plan and we have no strategy. Red, Yellow Green in first meeting. 16 x 5 = 80 priorities and losing 17 billion dollars. You know what the results were? All green. Alan said “Well, we’re losing 17 billion dollars and we’re all on plan.” He said “I think this is a bad plan. We may want to reconsider this plan. We’re losing 17 billion dollars here. Somebody’s got to be doing something. Why don’t we do it over?” Finally, somebody said “Red.” Alan said “Thank you for saying red.” He stands up and applauds – “Thank you for having the courage to admit you need to improve.” And then he said something even more profound. He said “You’re not afraid. You know how to get there. You’re lost. It is okay. You’re certainly sure of your own thing. My name is Alan Mullaly. I’m the CEO of Ford Motor Company. I will tell you one thing. I know a whole lot less than you do. I know a whole lot less than we do. What don’t we actually find some people who know what they’re doing and involve them and figure out how to fix this?”Now, how simple was that, number one and number two, how brilliant was that? Number three, the sad part. How unusual was that? How many CEOs would say “I don’t know the answer.”

Not many.

You know more than name. Not enough. And what Alan says is “Not only do I not know the answer and, by the way, you don’t know the answer, let’s be real. None of the big shots sitting in this room know how to solve your problem. How do we find some smart young people out there who actually know something and see if we can get this fixed?” You know what he said? Within 15 minutes the problem was fixed.

Wow! That’s quite impressive. It takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable like that.

Well, that’s the new world. That’s what we’re going to teach, as a coach. I say you’re going to learn a little bit from me but you’re going to learn a whole lot from all those people around you. I’m a facilitator who’s going to help you learn from these good people. I’m not god that has all the answers. And, by the way, you got a problem because Mary says you don’t listen. You can sit in a row and have me ask you probing questions for a few years. You might want to go ask Mary “How can I be a better listener?” Why don’t we just ask Mary?

Yeah. Well, you summarized it very nicely there.

Yeah, that’s it. And that’s Alan’s whole leadership process. Somebody challenged Alan. You know what he said? I won’t go into the details but you can look up his network online. It’s a huge number. Somebody says “Alan, if somebody would ever pay you as a CEO millions of dollars just be a facilitator?” You know what he said?

What’s that?

He said “No, maybe hundreds of millions.” He didn’t get paid millions. They’re going to get paid hundreds of millions. And you know what, when he left Ford, his personal check was, I think, 400 million dollars, he had the highest approval rating of any CEO in the United States from the employees in a union company. Think about this. The UAW, United Auto Workers, 97% approval for him as their CEO. They usually hate the CEO. And how about CEOs who make 400 million dollars? They really hate them. They love the guy.

That says a lot.

Nicest guy in the world. I was on the phone with him today for an hour and a half “Nicest guy in the world.” He said “You know what, Marshall. It’s not about me.”

Not about me. Not about the individual leader. It’s about those who we are leading.

If they’re leaders, it’s not just about them, either. It’s about the whole team that they’re working with.

Yes, yes. Well, very well said.So, Marshall, I could talk to you for hours but how would you summarize our conversation that we’ve had today.

Let me ask you a question. What’s your deepest learning from today?

Well, number one, you really whet my appetite for what we have coming in at our annual meeting there for the first time that you’ve assembled all the MG100 but your coaching approach stands out. And I’m really looking forward to this process of combining your tremendous talent as the number one leadership coach with Alan Mullaly’s leadership skills. Those two coming together and merging sounds like an amazing marriage.

And now there is going to be a price for this, Eddie. You know what the price is? When you get old, what’s the price?

I have to give it all away.

You have to give back to others.

Yes. And that process has already started, sir.

That’s good. You’re a good honorary grandson.

Yes, sir, granddad.So, Marshall, thank you so much for spending a little bit of your time with me today and to be able to share with my listeners just a little bit more about you.

Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s great fun.

Where can they learn more about you?

First, go to www.MarshallGoldsmith.com. I’ve got hundreds of videos and articles online. You mentioned LinkedIn. Just be a follower on LinkedIn. I have material online constantly there. Go to YouTube. I’ve got 3 million views of my stuff on YouTube. So, I’m not really hard to find.

All right. So, we’re going to make sure we put all that in the show notes so folks can go ahead and get all those resources.

You can email at Marshall@MarshallGoldsmith.com.

All right. We’ll make sure that’s in the show notes as well so folks can connect with you, become a follower if they’re not already, and continue to learn from the amazing Marshall Goldsmith.Marshall, thanks again. I’ll see you in a couple of weeks, okay?

See you in a couple of weeks. And, by the way, out there there’s this guy Eddie. So, if you ever need to get help and somebody helping you out, I’m recommending you talk to this Eddie character because that’s part of his job now.

It is. It is.

Thank you.

Thank you, Marshall.And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Hello. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator.Are you a successful woman who still finds herself struggling to get the next promotion or career opportunity you deserve? If this is you or a woman you know, you will want to listen to this episode. I have the honor to interview the legendary Sally Helgesen, the world’s premier expert on women’s leadership. Sally will explain how women everywhere can advance to the next level right after this.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive live impact through the power of facilitation, coaching, and speaking. I have had the opportunity to interview you some really impressive people. I’m especially honored however to interview Sally Helgesen, my guest for today. To give you an idea of why I am so excited to have Sally here, let me share the words of one of the foremost thought leaders in the leadership space today Jim Kouzes. He’s the author of The Leadership Challenge. Jim says is this.“Sally Helgesen is an original. She pioneered women’s leadership before it was a popular topic and has established herself as the gold standard in the field. No one is more qualified than Sally.”

Now, that is an impressive testimonial, if I’ve ever read one now. Sally Helgesen is cited by Forbes as the world’s premier expert on women’s leadership. She’s a bestselling author, speaker, and leadership coach. For 30 years her mission has been to help women leaders around the world recognize, articulate and act on their greatest strengths. Sally’s most recent book How Women Rise, co-authored with coaching legend Marshall Goldsmith, became the top selling title in its field within a week of publication. Her previous books include The Female Advantage, Women’s Ways of Leadership. It was hailed as the classic in its field and continuously in print since 19990. Also, The Web of Inclusion – A New Architecture for Building Great Organizations. This was cited in the Wall Street Journal as one of the best books on leadership of all time and is credited with bringing the language of inclusion into business. So, this is why I am so excited to have Sally Helgesen with me today.

Sally, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Thank you, Eddie. It is wonderful to be here.

Sally, would you please tell my listeners more about you?

Well, I have been working in the field of women’s leadership and inclusive leadership for the last 30 years starting with the publication of that book you referenced, The Female Advantage, Women’s Ways of Leadership which I’m very proud to say was the first book that looked at what women have to contribute rather than how they need to change and adapt. This resulted in a very unexpected career for me as an author, speaker, and leadership coach and I have always had this entire time a consistent mission which is to help women recognize, articulate, and act on their greatest strengths and to help organizations develop more inclusive cultures where women and other diverse employees can really thrive and realize their best talents.

That’s very interesting, Sally. Now, you mentioned that part of this inclusivity was helping organizations understand that women have something unique to offer and don’t necessarily need to change to be included.

That’s correct. I did actually the diary studies of some of America’s most accomplished women leaders for the book The Female Advantage and what I saw was that they had certain strengths that were consistent even though they were extremely diverse as leaders and strengths like capacity to build strong relationships and encourage strong relationships throughout their organizations and an appreciation of as opposed to a tolerance for diversity because they themselves had been outsiders and understood both the value that an outside perspective could bring and also the value of fresh eyes looking on a problem. So those things were very obvious to me, comfort with direct communication as opposed to communication up and down the chain of command. So, I felt it was really important to put those out there because especially over the last 30 years as the technology has redefined organizations, these are the strengths organizations need now.

Indeed. And I can imagine the refreshment that must have come to understand that they did not have to become someone else. They could be who they are and that should be celebrated and appreciated by organizations.

That’s one of the big messages here that by digging down and seeing what is most authentic about what you have to contribute, you are going to be able to build a leadership profile, a leadership style that is sustainable and that is rewarding to you and that really reflects your talents because when you’re trying to just to meet expectations that may not reflect your best talent, that’s not necessarily sustainable because you’re always trying to achieve something that isn’t really authentic to you and you can end up disengaging. So what we really need to think about in the workplace now that the nature of talent pool is so highly diverse. And this is not obviously just in the US. I work all over the world and in global companies we have a highly diverse talent pool will. In order to realize the real benefits of that, we need an inclusive culture in which people can bring their best selves strategically and tactically to work.

Yes. And, as you said, even across the globe you’re seeing this. This isn’t localized. It’s not a regional phenomenon. More and more organizations are trying to really understand and appreciate the value of inclusivity.

That’s exactly right. And the reason they’re being pushed to appreciate the value of inclusivity has to do with that diverse talent pool. I often hear organizations saying things like “Diversity is our goal.” No, diversity is not your goal. Diversity is your reality. You need to figure out how to lead that well, how to lead in that environment and inclusivity is the method or the means for leading in that environment.

And part of helping organizations and specifically women celebrate their contributions in a lot of organizations that hired them to be inclusive and to value their diversity is helping women recognize and tap into their talents. And you’ve written a lot about this including the book that you referenced but your latest book, I absolutely love this book and thank you for sending me a copy.

Thank you.

How Women Rise – Break The twelve Habits Holding You Back from Your Next Raise, Promotion, or Job.Now, I have to admit I’ve also been referring this and I bought a couple copies for clients because it really is to me one of those things that becomes a tool in the toolbox of senior women and a lot of my clients happen to be women and they’re very well educated, highly successful but they hit certain roadblocks. And it’s been interesting to me to see this and you address them and that’s why I’ve given this as gifts since I’ve been recommending it because you address these things in your book. So, can you tell my listeners what motivated you to write this book?

Yes, exactly. How Women Rise, I co-authored it with Marshall Goldsmith who, of course, is a legend in the field of leadership coaching. What inspired me was Marshall had written a great book published in 2010, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, which is about the behaviors and habits most likely to get in the way of successful people and hold them back from achieving the next level of success. I felt the template Marshall came up with was brilliant. Basically, his insight was that same habits that may serve you early in your career can become problematic as you seek to move higher and yet you’re invested in them. You hold onto them because you recognize that they played a role in getting you where they are. So, you keep trying to use them even though they may be getting in your way as you try to move higher. So, I loved the template. I loved the idea. It really resonated for me in terms of the women I’ve been working with for 30 years but I noticed that, and it’s not surprising because Marshall works with the CEOs and the most senior executives, and his coaching base is probably traditionally about 80% men. So, it wasn’t surprising to me that some of the habits and behaviors that he focused on weren’t necessarily that appropriate or that much of a problem for women. He starts by saying “Learn to apologize” and it made me laugh. I work with women even at the most senior levels who cannot stop apologizing. They apologize when they open the door. They apologize to the door. That’s their opening line when they walk in a room. So, I thought “Well, that’s not that big a deal.” And then he has things like “Stop talking about how great you are all the time.” Well, again, I haven’t noticed that being a big issue for most women. So, I suggested to Marshall that we collaborate based on our, probably putting it together, 65 years of coaching experience and working with leaders around the world that we collaborate on a book that look specifically at the habits and behaviors most likely to hold women back as they seek to make it to that next level. And what you had to say about it is exactly what we’re finding, which is that coaches find this enormously useful. I’m heading to Tokyo next week to work with a group of coaches on using the material in How Women Rise in coaching women and also in coaching man to be more effective allies, supporters, mentors, and sponsors for women.

Yes. And I’m glad you said that because it absolutely addresses both sides of that coin. And indeed, Marshall’s book was required reading when I went through my coach training program. So as a result, it was a book I always refer to my client as well but as I gained more experience as a coach, that’s when I started to see the stark difference that you just described. Women don’t have those challenges that we see very clearly in senior very successful men. And so, a different resource was needed. And so, I think this is kind of a one-two punch for every coach to have in their toolkit and every leader to have in their toolkit to understand the value that both books offer.

Thank you, Eddie. We’re really finding that they’re highly complementary. And, as I said, they’re really rooted in that fundamental insight that the behaviors and habits that can serve you well early in your career can become problematic as you seek to move to the highest level.

Yes, absolutely. And what would you say is the biggest takeaway from the book?

I think the biggest takeaway is that it’s possible and, in fact, not that terribly difficult although you need persistence to begin to change habits and behaviors that may have gotten in your way. In addition to offering observations about 12 behaviors that are most likely to hold women back, we present a very powerful template for changing habits and behaviors that breaks it down and makes it something that people can really do. Our habits and behaviors are not rooted in our character. They are rooted in our experience, which is the primary reason that men and women often have different habits because our experiences in the workplace are often different. So, I’ve always believed that by practicing new behaviors you begin to change what your experience is and that becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. So, we have a really good road map for doing that, which is, again, I think, one reason that coaches are finding this so useful.

Yes, the roadmap is one of the key things, I think, as well in the book that I absolutely value. Clients can almost do it yourself. They almost don’t need us, which is actually what we want, right?

Yeah. We’ve got four steps in there and the second step is “Don’t do this alone.” So that can mean engaging a coach, it can mean engaging a peer coach and it can mean getting comfortable sort of engaging people for spot peer coaching on the fly, to give you feedback or feed forward about something you’re trying to change.

yes, I was going to say that. That’s Excellent. I appreciate you highlighting that but there’s something else, I think, that people will find value in, at least I did when I was reading it. It’s all the case studies, real-life examples that you include, because as I was reading it, I was thinking “This is Client A. This is Client B.” And so, yes, those stories really bring the content, the theory to life. And then you give that roadmap for people. So just a really excellent resource for coaches and clients alike.

Yeah, as you say, those are real-life stories. They come from, as I said, my 30 years out there and some of them come from Marshall’s experience when he coached women. So, I think they jump off the page to people, that’s what we’re hearing, and make it vivid and real and not theoretical. This is not an academic book. This is a book that is aimed at people in the workplace who want to be more successful.

Yes, yes indeed. Well, thank you, Sally.We’re talking to Sally Helgesen and she’s talking to us about How Women Rise. We’ll hear more from Sally right after this.

We’re back, everyone. We’re talking to the legendary Sally Helgesen and she is helping us to understand How Women Rise and she’s also sharing with us of the importance of diversity and inclusion.Sally, before we took our break, you were telling us about your fantastic book How Women Rise – Break the Twelve Habits Holding You Back from Your Next, Raise, Promotion or Job. And I’d like shift gears just a tad now. We cited the stat that Forbes has provided about you. You are one of the world’s premier experts on women’s leadership and we cited what Jim Kouzes said about you that, in fact, no one is more qualified than you and you were a pioneer in women’s leadership before it was even popular but I found something else out about you. In addition to those amazing words, I happen to be reading a book when I was at the Doerr Institute not long ago. You and I were introduced to each other through the Executive Founder Tom Kolditz.

Yes.

And I was there on a little work. And while I was waiting, I was looking through a book that caught my eye. It was entitled The Art and Practice of Leadership Coaching. This book was written in 2005 although it was reprinted again in 2011 but as far back as 2005 you were being cited even then as one of the top 50 executive coaches in the world. So, your work speaks for itself. You are a thought leader and I’m just so super excited to have you on the show.Tell us, if you would, please, your perspective as an executive coach, tell us a little bit more about your work in that area.

All right. My work as an executive coach has grown directly out of the research that I’ve done in the seven books about women’s leadership but also leadership in general in a changing technologically interconnected knowledge economy. So, it really draws very much out of that and it is very focused on practicing better behaviors to get better results. I am certified in Marshall Goldsmith’s wonderful stakeholder-centered coaching method which basically requires coachees to enlist other people in the organization, the people who actually have the experience of working with them, to evaluate how they’re changing what the impact of that is. And I find it an extremely powerful method because, again, it’s focused very much on making measured, sometimes very small, positive behavioral changes and sustaining them over time. And I think that engaging stakeholders is a very powerful way of doing that. So, I get a lot of value from that. I work with individuals but you know what I really love is group coaching. Yes, I think it’s because small group coaching, taking four or six individuals who are maybe just below the most senior leadership level or who are partners in a law firm or an accounting firm but possibly not equity partners etc., I like working with a small group and I think it’s because so much of my work and my thinking has evolved out of doing workshops over the last 30 years. After The Female Advantage was published, people started asking me “I want you come in and talk to our women. Can you come in and talk to our company, our organization?” So, I started doing so and I did a lot of keynotes and I still do a lot of keynotes. I still do a lot of those kinds of presentations but increasingly I’ve focused on doing workshops because I find that they have a more measurable impact and also because I don’t have to do all the work. I get people engaged and we have a lot more fun than be standing up there grinding on. So, it’s a wonderful way of working with people, or working with companies. I’ve done these all over the world from Egypt to up above the Arctic Circle, Northern Norway to Kuala Lumpur, Melbourne, Singapore everywhere. And I’ve really learned a lot from them. People work with one another. So, what I find about small group coaching is its way of intensifying and kind of continuing that process but doing it in a way that you can really measure the results of people’s change and the impact that they’re having both in terms of creating more satisfying careers for themselves but also beginning to shift the culture of the organization. So, I just love doing that kind of small group coaching. It feels very hands-on, it feels intimate, but it also feels high impact.

Very well said. Thank you for sharing that. And indeed, group coaching, team coaching is a new aspect of coaching. It’s really getting a lot of attention as of late and more people are looking for ways to get involved with that and I see more programming becoming available but also something you said there that resonated is the fact that obviously you’re a professional speaker and you give keynotes. I just recently wrote an article in Speaker Magazine that’s published by the National Speakers Association and that is one of the suggestions I made to keynoters – When you give your keynote, it feels good, the audience loves it but then they go back to work. When they go back to work, they have a hard time applying, even if they have the best intentions, the things they heard and were inspired by when you spoke. And so, the recommendation that I put in there was to offer workshops as a follow-up to the keynote and gave a method and things that they should consider. And it’s interesting just, it hasn’t gone live and yet, but when I offered this as part of my workshop that I delivered to chapters, the response was very intriguing. It was intriguing for some people to hear that because they had not considered it. And the fact that you really have a chance to move the needle for the client far more in a smaller group than of course with a large audience of the keynote. And so, some people reached out to me and told me how they’ve been applying that but then you said something that really matters even more. It’s not just having a small group Interaction, that small group coaching, that small workshop but it’s measuring the impact. Can you talk a little bit more about what that does to your relationship with clients and the people who you’re measuring?

Well, it’s so important to be able to measure that. When and I do workshops, I try to suggest “Let’s have a check-in in three months and I won’t charge you. Let’s have a check-in in six months. I won’t charge you.” I want to see how people are doing so they can remain on track. That’s really part of what I offer because what concerns me is impact. As I said earlier, my mission has always been helping women to recognize, articulate, and act on their greatest strengths and helping organizations create more inclusive cultures in which everyone can thrive. So how do I know whether my own work is creating those kinds of impacts unless in there in the loop and can hear how it’s going. So that’s one of the things that’s so powerful about group coaching is you really can do that. And how do you measure it? You measure it by gauging what the people around the person who’s being coached or if you’re coaching a team, what the experience of the team is in terms, depending on their goal, is their goal to be more harmonious, is their goal to be more creative, is their goal to be more impactful, is their goal to be more strategic, is their goal to change the culture of the organization, what is the goal that they’re trying to achieve. And then once you get people to really focus on that and articulate it, then you can do some background interviews with people around them and you know how well is this working. And if the answer is “Oh, it’s working fantastically,” that’s nice but if the answer is “You know, I think it’s working well but,” then you listen to that and you begin to include that or in recalibration going forward. So, I think it really keeps the process honest and it keeps the process focused on the client whether it’s an individual or a small group or a team, and those are two different things. I think that that’s really, really important. So, you want to have impact. That’s your goal. Impact is your goal. You’ve got to find a way of checking in and seeing how it’s working and find out the perceptions that the people around the members of the group or the team to see if it’s working.

Yes, and as the proverbial saying goes, what gets measured is what gets done.

That’s it.

And certainly impact is a part of my tagline – “Accelerate performance and drive impact.” So, we have to have measurement if we’re going to be able to do that and prove that we’ve done it. So, thank you for sharing that.

I wanted to say one thing though, Eddie, also. Measuring does not have to always be hard numbers. There are many qualitative measures that you can pay attention to in terms of what people’s experiences are. And sometimes I’m concerned that when we talk about measurement, it means you want to quantify absolutely everything. And what we’re talking about is human relationships. And as my friend Tom Peters always says, “Numbers are soft and relationships are hard,” and I agree with that. Numbers can be adjusted. Relationships are tough to do. So, I think that the awareness, the qualitative improvements are also measurable, not just quantitative is key.

That’s interesting. Thank you for sharing that because, yes, I am only thinking about the quantitative side but the qualitative side, do you have recommendations for that, have you written about that someplace that we can reference?

Interestingly, I don’t think I’ve really written about it. It’s a good idea. If I ever get 5 minutes, I probably should do that. By quantitative, I really mean I come at my career not as an organizational psychologist but really my background was as a writer, as both a journalist and speechwriter. I did a lot of corporate communications before The Female Advantage and it was in fact my experiencing in corporate communications that led to the frustration that resulted in my writing The Female Advantage – Women’s Ways of Leadership and publishing that book way back in 1990. So, I come at this from a writing point of view. And when you’re a writer, whether you’re a journalist or a speechwriter, you are always trying to interview people in a very comprehensive way to try to understand what their experience is, what their perspective is, etc. Journalism that is highly quantitative is unbelievably boring to me. That’s not research. Research is different than the kind of comprehensive analysis. So basically what I try to do in order to get that qualitative aspect is to interview as many people as I can around the group, the team, or the individual I’m coaching, get them to share what their experiences are instead of questions like “How many times did so and so do X, Y, and Z?” and then you get a number but how meaningful is it.

Well, thank you for sharing that. That shifts my perspective, yes, because I’m only usually thinking about the quantitative but the qualitative component of measurement, there is some value there. I can see that. Thank you for sharing.

Sure.

Now, you talked about your work as an executive coach but you also are known as a great leadership coach. In your mind what’s the difference?

Well, I really don’t see myself as an executive coach. I see myself as a leadership coach. And I think executive coaching, and my guess is that Marshall would agree with this definition, executive coaching is often very much focused on helping an executive make certain strategic decisions, financial decisions, etc. I really view leadership coaching as a more comprehensive term that basically what I’m committed to is helping people realize their best leadership talents. So, it’s more focused in a way on the individual or the small group than necessarily on what the organization is looking for in terms of quantitative outcomes. So that’s how I see the difference to some degree but I’m not weathered to that but I’m much more comfortable describing myself as a leadership coach.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing that because that’s a big difference. I really appreciate that.So, if someone’s listening to our conversation right now and thinking that they would like to make a change for the better, what’s one thing they can start with?

One thing they can start with is to really start enlisting other people in their development. And as noted in How Women Rise, we’ve got a really good template for doing this. So, when you identify something that you get feedback, maybe getting in a way. It could be through a performance review or it could be just that you notice that a number people in your organization and probably including your spouse are telling you you’re not very good at listening or you need to be a little more patient with people or you share too much information, you’re not quite concise enough or you need to stop minimizing what your achievements and contributions are and stand with it, present it more. These are very easily observable habits and behaviors that can get in your way as a leader. So, once you identify what that is, I think it’s very helpful to kind of break it down. Say you have feedback that, and this is true for a lot of women, too much information, too many details, too much background, try to be more concise when you present about something, when you get that, what is helpful rather than feeling overwhelmed or “What am I going to do?” to just pick a situation where you’re going to practice being more concise – “Oh, this meeting I have every two weeks and I’ve gotten some feedback back that people were saying “You were a little all over the map there.” So, I’m going to try in this meeting to prepare to be more concise.” And then you can enlist people to help you. You can say “You know, I’m going into this meeting. You’re always there. You’ve seen me in the past. I’m really working on getting much more concise and focused in how I present. Could you watch me and let me know how you think I’m doing, if there’s something I could do that would be more effective?” or you can go to somebody who’s very good at being concise and say “Look, I’m really working on this. I’ve noticed you seem to be terrific at it. Do you have any tips for me? Is there anything you do when you’re preparing?” So that process of enlisting other people to sort of get their ideas, get their input, get their support is really important.And I want to say one thing, and marshal’s really clear on this. When you do that, you only have one response when they tell you that – “Well, the reason I don’t do that is but” or “but that would be difficult for me in this situation.” Your only response is “Thank you.” You don’t you have to it. You may disagree with it but your only response is “Thank you.”

Yes. I started laughing because I knew exactly where you would go with that. That’s so true. So, as you said earlier, don’t try to go it alone. Thank you for that advice.Sally, this has been an incredible conversation. I could talk to you for hours. What is the main message you’d like to leave our listeners with?

It’s partly “Don’t do it alone when you’re trying to make change” but I think also the best advice I have to give, and this is really important for women and for any kind of diverse employees who may constantly be worrying that they’re going to be perceived as arrogant if they talk about themselves or if they present their achievements, and that is doing your work is half the job. You also need to know how to market what you contribute. Connections and visibility are as important to your career as just doing a great job.

Wonderful! That is excellent advice indeed. Doing the work is only half the job. You also need to know how to market what you contribute.

Yes.

Thank you.Where can my listeners learn more about you?

Well, my website certainly which is SallyHelgesen.com. Also, although I notice on my screen, I’ve got 46 messages that I have to respond to on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is my preferred social media channel. So, connect with me on LinkedIn and I will get back to those 46 people and I will also get back to you if you decide to connect with me.

Well, I believe after this interview airs, you’re going to have far more than 46 people knocking on your door to connect with you. So, we’re going to be sure put how to connect with you in the show notes that people will see on their handheld devices and also my website and my website will also have a link to how they can pick up a copy of your book. So, thank you so much for being here. I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, Sally.

It’s been a great pleasure. I particularly enjoyed our talking about leadership coaching, group coaching, and how the habits and behaviors that get in people’s way can really be addressed through coaching.

Indeed, indeed. Thank you so much.

My pleasure, Eddie.

And thank you for listening. Well, that concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Excelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.