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Keep Leading!® Podcast 115 | How to Develop Promotable Leaders | Amii Barnard-Bahn

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Amii Barnard-Bahn
Former Fortune Global 50 Executive and Author of the Promotability Index®
How to Develop Promotable Leaders

Episode Summary
On Episode 115 of the Keep Leading!® podcast, I explored what makes a leader promotable and defines an ethical workplace with former Fortune Global 50 executive Amii Barnard-Bahn!

Check out the “60-Second Preview” of this episode!

Bio
A former Fortune Global 50 executive, Amii Barnard-Bahn is a coach, author, and speaker that accelerates the success of C-suite leaders and their teams. Forbes has recognized her as one of the world’s leading coaches for legal and compliance professionals. Clients include Adobe, The Gap, Bank of the West, and The Nature Conservancy. A contributor to Harvard Business Review and Fast Company, Amii is a Fellow at the Harvard Institute of Coaching and a guest lecturer at Stanford and UC Berkeley. A lifelong diversity advocate, Amii testified for passage of the first laws in the U.S. requiring corporate boards to include women. She lives in Sacramento with her husband and two teenage daughters. Download her free Promotability Index® career assessment at http://bit.ly/AskAmii

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Twitter
https://twitter.com/amiibb

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Transcript

Did you know that indecision is costing you money? When employees get stuck in indecision loops, it can impact their work, the work of others, commitments to clients and ultimately, your bottom line. Give your employees access to coaching when they need to stop in decision loops and keep your business moving forward. Visit Grand Heron International.Ca/podcast to learn about the Grand Heron Plus Program for corporations.

This podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up on business.

Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to promoting leadership development and sharing leadership insights. Here’s your host, The Leadership Excelerator®, Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and motivational speaking.The Keep Leading!® Podcast, as I say in my introduction, is about leadership development. Today, however, I want to discuss how we develop leaders but more specifically promotable leaders. Here to discuss developing promotable leaders is Amii Barnard-Bah. Amii is a former Fortune Global 50 executive, a coach, an author, and a speaker. Amii has been recognized by Forbes as one of the leading coaches for legal and compliance professionals. For this and many reasons you’ll discover throughout our conversation, I’m simply thrilled to have Amii here on the Keep Leading!® Podcast with me.

Amii, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Thank you, Eddie. I am so excited to be here with you today.

Eddie Turner:

Amii, please tell us more about your professional background and your current consulting business.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Absolutely. Well, Eddie, I spent about 20 years working in Fortune Global 50 organizations and I worked my way up to senior executive roles such as Chief Compliance Officer, Chief Administrative Officer, and Chief Human Resources Officer. And in the C-suite, as you probably know, the best way to be a revered leader and successfully drive business strategy is to build healthy workplace cultures. And so, in my leadership roles, I always hired an executive coach to support my work and I know the exponential benefits that I leveraged in an executive coaching partnership. And so, when I founded my leadership and coaching consultancy, I founded it around a mission to help organizations create those healthy workplace cultures by supporting executives and their teams in overcoming blind spots, effectively serving their stakeholders, and reaching their full leadership potential. My goal, as I think yours probably is with your clients, is to make leadership more effortless and ultimately help people lead happier lives. And to do this in a way where employees thrive, leaders really need to progress to a higher level of performance and teams must be engaged and motivated to do their best work.

Eddie Turner:

Amii, obviously, as an executive coach, I’m excited to hear you say what you just said. I didn’t know you were going to say that, obviously. So, I have to ask a little bit more about that because I am so impressed with your career, which is one of the reasons I invited you to be a guest. Your recognition of the role executive coaching played for you, just tell us a little bit more about that.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yeah. I would say, Eddie, when I had my first executive role is when I realized “Okay, I really need to level up and I need a safe space to do that.” I was lucky I had a supportive boss, I had a great executive team and I was working with some really smart incredibly strategic people. And I knew that I wouldn’t always know what I didn’t know, right? And I knew the worst thing you can have, in my opinion, as a leader is, well, a few things but one thing is blind spots because they can just kill you. They can just sneak up on you. And the best thing you can do as a leader is just see around corners and try to shrink what you don’t know about yourself, about how you’re showing up, about your impact, the impact of your behavior on other people. And getting a coach, to me, is number one way to do that because you can’t do it on your own.

Eddie Turner:

Yes. And so much so you’re saying that you realized that not just as a corporate employee but as a new business owner that you would need an executive coach.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Well, I was talking about when I was an executive but I also, yes, have hired coaches as a business owner, entrepreneur as well. I just think no one person can know everything. When I was in corporate, sometimes I was fortunate and my company offered me executive coaching as a perk but when they didn’t, I paid for it myself. For me, Eddie, I can say I considered it an investment in my career. I love learning, I’m very curious and I just love having people that challenge me that are smarter than me about different things and makes me smarter to be around them. And so, I’ve just always surrounded myself with kind of being on board of directors, if you will. And if it doesn’t happen naturally, I make it happen.

Eddie Turner:

Wow! I simply love hearing what you said and it’s so true, Amii. Now, you went from using executive coaches to becoming a renowned coach yourself because that’s how you and I met. I neglected to say you are a member of the esteemed Marshall Goldsmith’s MG100 family.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

I am and I am so lucky to meet such amazing people like you.

Eddie Turner:

Well, it’s very kind of you to say. I feel very fortunate to have met you and I simply enjoy the contribution that you make to our MG100 family and seeing you on our Monday morning calls and the value that you bring is just excellent.Now, you advise organizations on how they can create ethical workplaces is something that I read about you and what you’re doing. And that struck me because if I asked, 9 out of 10 employees would say “Of course we have an ethical workplace. What do you mean?” So, what is an ethical workplace?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Well, to me, an ethical workplace is a place where, and I’m talking about the employees right now, but there’s tone at the top, strong leadership that supports doing the right thing but doing the right thing is thrown around a lot, right? So, let’s break that down a little bit. So, doing the right thing means, to me, three things. Number one, employees know what’s expected of them. Number two, they know where to go when they have a question or a concern. And critically and most importantly, number three, they feel comfortable coming forward if they have a concern around illegal or unethical behavior. And that’s so important in a speaking-up culture. So, for me, an ethical culture is a company that serves its three main stakeholder groups which are its investors, its community in which it does business, and its employees and they strive to comply with laws and regulations but they also strive to be ethical and to see around corners because laws don’t take care of everything, you can’t have a rule and a policy for everything. I know that as a former head of HR, it’s pointless. And you don’t want to be finger wagging at people all the time. You want to inspire them to think about what could be the negative impact on the community that we do business in or what could be the negative impact on our employees around supply chain disruption, around a furlough, how do we keep our good people, all of that. So, to me, that’s an ethical workplace. There are people who are showing really all together a good faith effort, of course supported by leadership to do the right thing.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And this is part of the work you’re doing as a consultant but as we said in the intro, you were a Fortune 50 executive. How did you make the switch from the C-suite to consulting?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

I had such a great ride, Eddie. I got to bounce around a little more than even a lot of other people. I was a general counsel, I’ve been a Chief Human Resources Officer, I’ve been a Compliance Officer, and then I’ve been a CIO overseeing IT and Marketing and Communications and a whole bunch of functions. And so, I felt like I had really had the opportunity to drive strategy from multiple levels and I really loved the independence that I thought that it has brought me, coaching and consulting, because I also love to write. I’m also an advocate. I’ve been an advocate for the Women on Boards Movement and for corporate diversity. And there are just some things that, as a corporate executive, you may run into conflicts of interest with. As an executive, I took it very seriously. I was the Chief Compliance Officer for a Fortune 5 company at McKesson and when you’re an executive, you are the company. Everything you say, everything you do, in my opinion, if you’re doing it right, reflects on the company. And that was wonderful for 20 years but then I wanted to do some other things. So, that meant going independent.

Eddie Turner:

Okay. And as you have gone independent, you’ve done a lot of work around what it takes to make promotable leaders. So, can you share with us what makes a leader promotable?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Sure. I studied this for a while and then, of course, having done everything, Eddie, from hiring and firing and doing succession planning in RIFs and high growth industries, all the work that I did in organizations, sitting through talent meetings for 20 years and just seeing who got promoted and who didn’t led me to focus on five key elements of promotability. And those are the things that decision makers really evaluate around performance when considering who they’re going to promote as high-potential leaders.

Eddie Turner:

Can you list the five for us?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Absolutely. So, they are self-awareness. Second is external awareness. The third is strategic thinking. The fourth is executive presence. And the fifth is thought leadership.

Eddie Turner:

I love those. I think we could do an episode, seriously. I think we could do an episode on each of the five

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Oh, we could, easily. There’s tons and I could talk for days about it, especially after writing this book. I created an assessment that’s free to anyone, 82 questions, and thousands of people have taken it and I’ve gotten such wonderful thoughts. My goal, Eddie, is … As we started our conversation around reduced blind spots, so for anyone starting out, whether they’re already in the C-suite and they’re looking at a corporate board or if they’re starting out and it’s their first job, these questions are helpful because they raise awareness of what people should be thinking about if they want, what I would call, a self-authoring career where they’re in the driver’s seat, they’re responsible for their own development. Sometimes you’re lucky enough to get a company that’s going to help you and you get an amazing boss that’s also a mentor but you and I both know that doesn’t always happen, right?

Eddie Turner:

Far too often it’s not the case.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Right. And so, my goal is to put tools in front of people that either help leaders and organizations do a better job with that and, by the way, that also create objective criteria which may be something that we can talk about as well because that gets to fairness and diversity and inclusion but also helps them just be more thoughtful about who they’re promoting and why and enables and gives a common language for employees bottom up to have these conversations with their boss.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Please tell us those five again as well as where we can find them.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Sure. So, the Promotability Index Assessment, you can get a copy for free by texting the word ‘promoteme’, all one word, to 44222. It’s 82 questions. It’s just yes or no. It’s super fun. I’m actually migrating it to mobile as well. So, that’ll be happening in the next few weeks when the book launches. And it goes into self-awareness.

Eddie Turner:

Is that the name of the book as well, Amii?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Oh yeah, the Promotability Index Assessment, the Pi Guidebook is the book. So, with the assessment plus the book, you’ve basically got an amazing leadership toolkit for under 25 bucks. So, my goal is to make this affordable to everyone and to organizations because I do a lot of workshops and speaking engagements around it and I’ve been helping out some mentor programs as well as employee resource groups.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And the five areas again were?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yes. So, Self-Awareness, External Awareness, Strategic Thinking, Executive Presence, and Thought Leadership.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. So, these five keys make a leader promotable, helps them to develop. Again, I think we’re going to have to do something where I can get you to do another episode, we break those down. Speaking of promotability, you alluded to something earlier. Women are often left behind when it comes to receiving promotions in organizations. Do you mind telling our listeners what you specifically have done to help women around this area of promotability?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Sure. I would say, number one, I coach some amazing women and some fantastic men as well. And men are great allies. We need them. And I would say one thing that comes up often in my coaching in the C-suite, I think, what I find, you can think about leadership with a different lens which is the balance of assertiveness with approachability and what research has shown is that those two qualities are critical for all people, men and women, but there can be a likability penalty for women if they don’t lean in a little bit more at the right time to approachability versus assertiveness versus men who can get away with, Eddie, a little bit more leaning into their assertiveness and being a little lighter on their approachability.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And there’s something else significant you’ve done to help women’s promotability as it relates to a bill that was passed.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yes, thank you. I had the privilege of testifying for the first laws in the united states to require women to sit on corporate boards. And you’d wish that we didn’t need a law, Eddie. You’d wish that it wasn’t necessary but in California, we tried a Pretty Please resolution which is a non-binding legislative resolution and nothing happened for two years, the numbers didn’t move at all. It was like 16% of corporate board seats in the state of California for publicly traded companies were held by women, 16%. And we’ve got over 55% of MBA graduates and all kinds of other data showing us that it’s not a pipeline problem. It’s an access problem.

Eddie Turner:

Yes.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

And here’s a unique way, and of course underrepresented, people of color are also completely underrepresented as well. So, it’s not just women. And so, what we wanted to do with this bill which is a mandatory bill in California and it’s been in place now for about a year and a half and now, I’m very happy to say that we actually exceeded our goal. Originally, we had a 20% goal for 2020 and we met it early and now in California we’re at about 22%.

Eddie Turner:

Fantastic.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

It’s better, right? And I wrote an article for Harvard Business Review actually around pay inequality and how companies can implement procedures around addressing pay as well for women and people of color and make sure that those are equitable. So, I just like opening doors and figuring out a practical pathway to what I personally hope and believe companies would want. And that is, again, empowering all employees to do their best work because that’s the competitive advantage companies have.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

It’s not the product. It’s the people, at the end of the day. Anyone can copy your product if you wait long enough, right? It’s the people.

Eddie Turner:

Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you, Amii.I’m enjoying my conversation with Amii Barnard-Bah. She’s an attorney. She is a speaker, an author, a former Fortune 50 global executive. You can see her work in the Harvard Business Review, Forbes, the San Francisco Chronicle, NBC affiliates, and other national business publications. We’ll have more with Amii right after this as we continue our discussion about how to develop promotable leaders.

This podcast is sponsored by Eddie Turner LLC. Organizations who need to accelerate the development of their leaders call Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. Eddie works with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact. Call Eddie Turner to help your leaders one on one as their coach or to inspire them as a group through the power of facilitation or a keynote address. Visit EddieTurnerLLC.com to learn more.

This is Lou Diamond from Thrive Loud with Lou Diamond and you’re listening to the Keep Leading!® Podcast with Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:

We’re back, everyone. I’m talking to Amii Barnard-Bah. She’s an attorney, an author, a speaker and a former Fortune 50 global executive. We’re talking about how to develop promotable leaders.Amii, fascinating discussion before the break and I loved the key points that you’ve shared with us and the index you’ve created. It sounds like you are just doing some incredible things out here and I would love to know what are the big projects you’re working on right now.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Thanks, Eddie. Well, I am working on what I realized was the second half to the assessment that we mentioned earlier. The Promotability Index was a great assessment tool for people but as I conducted a lot of workshops and worked last year, we were all in confinement virtually, people asked for more. And so, then, I realized I needed to write a guidebook around the index. So, that’s coming out later this month.

Eddie Turner:

Okay.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

It’ll be called the PI Guidebook. And together with the assessment, you’ve got a really powerful toolkit.

Eddie Turner:

A little bit of a one-two punch, huh?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yeah, I like about it is I tried to create something that I would enjoy and that appeals to everyone. It’s kind of a choose-your-own-adventure type of a guidebook. You can pick which of the five elements you’d like to work on. You can talk to your boss about it. The most powerful discussions, Eddie, I found are when teams do this together. And I’ve done some mentoring workshops and other things for folks because it provides a common language for discussions and career succession planning with your manager. And then for leaders who find it challenging and difficult to have these conversations, which they can be, having been in that role, it’s really helpful if you can objectively say, okay, to get promoted, you would need to get better at presentations, you need to get more concise in your speaking or you don’t realize how you’re showing up and actually you need to invest more in your relationships, your external awareness and some of your stakeholders, right? So, this gives you that kind of a checklist to work on and potentially have that discussion with your boss. And if you don’t have a boss you feel comfortable with, you can go it alone or of course you can get a coach but at least it gets you something in your hands that gives you over 30 exercises. The guidebook is very practical. It walks you through creating your own self-development plan. And, again, it has over 30 exercises to create that plan based on where you are and what you want to work on. And so, the assessment helps you assess where you are and then you take those results and then you use the guidebook to develop where you’re either told you need to develop or where you feel you need to.

Eddie Turner:

Well, this is interesting. As you are working with people on the promotability index and you’re having the workshops and now they’ll have the book coming out, what have you found to be one of the elements about promotability that people simply just keep underestimating?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

The one, Eddie, that people underestimate the most is external awareness. And I’ve divided awareness into two different types. They’re interrelated and they overlap and they’re self-reinforcing their self-awareness which to me is knowing your what, how, and why like “What are my gifts? Why do I do what I do? What’s my mission?” External awareness is equally important but it’s around “How is my behavior impacting others? Am I aware of how I show up in the world? Is my message getting across? Am I executing in a way that enables me to reach those goals and to fulfill my mission?” And so, what I find is that as a coach, and you may find this as well, is that people underestimate how they’re showing up. They may make some assumptions and they may not check in enough. And I actually just wrote a Harvard article about this, which is called Promotions Aren’t Just About Your Skills. They’re About Your Relationships.

Eddie Turner:

I was wondering where I read that and I shared that.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Oh, you did. Thank you. I remember that. You and I both know that promotions aren’t always fair and they’re not always rational. So, when it comes down to promotions, your skills and knowledge and abilities are usually just a ticket to the game. And, of course, you need to be good at what you do but it’s really the relationships and working with other people that get you that promotion. So, that’s why it’s really important to invest in those and learn what impact your behavior has on others and secondly, how you’re perceived which is often, I would describe it as experiences over time.

Eddie Turner:

Okay. I like that. Now, I’m thinking about what you said and I realized something, Amii. I’m an assessment guy too.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yeah, I bet you are.

Eddie Turner:

There’s tons of them out there.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yes, we could drown in them.

Eddie Turner:

At a certain point, you said “I don’t care about all of the assessors that are out here. None of them are hitting the sweet spot. I’m going to make my own.” So, number one, kudos to you for having the ability, the thought process to make your own but what made it necessary?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

I didn’t see anything out there that dealt with the reality of how promotions are given and that focus people in the right areas. There are many assessments that I use with my clients that are exceptional. So, this is not a criticism of the existing amazing psychometric assessments that are out there but mine is also just a facially valid way of thinking about how companies truly behave and act and what’s important. And it’s super user friendly. I made it free for everyone even though, as you can imagine, it was a huge investment for me to create it but it’s just 82 questions, yes or no. And it’s up to you what you do with it. And I do have some coaches who love using it with their clients, which has been really fun to hear and very rewarding. And the way that I worded the questions, Eddie, is also that when you when I ask the questions, they can raise awareness in and of themselves. So, I tried to combine awareness raising along with action and inspiration at the same time, if that makes sense. And so, just simply asking a question, you know how powerful that can be as a coach, right? Asking the right question of ourselves at the right time, that can just be life-changing and in terms of how we’re framing our life, how we’re looking at executing what our priorities are, where we’re spending our attention, the one precious gift that we have. and so, I created the assessment because I didn’t see anything like it. It’s not a personality test. It’s not a conflict resolution instrument. It’s just if you want to think about how other people think about getting ahead, that’s really what it’s for.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Do you have a success story you can share with us?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Yes, I am happy to share one particular one that stands out that is very meaningful to me. One client that I was coaching is exceptionally brilliant and executed her job perfectly from a technical standpoint and she was supported by her boss for his role because he was retiring and he was in the C-suite. She’d worked at this company for 10 years and had worked for also all the other major startups, successful tech startups in Silicon Valley. So, she has exceptional credentials. And when the CEO informally went around and said “Hey, if I put this person up to replace so and so who’s leaving, would you support it?”, which is what happens, as you know. There’s these informal conversations that people check up on you, how are you perceived, do people want to work with you, do they want you on the C-suite because once you’re in that room, you spend a lot of time together just like being on a corporate board, right? You’ve got to know those people have your back, you got to all be working together, especially under crisis. And he got some no’s back that “No, I wouldn’t want to work with this person. They’re too aggressive. My team hates working with them. My team comes to me to try to avoid directly talking to them.” So, this person didn’t realize it but they were creating a long shadow, is what I would say, for themselves and creating work for other executives that they weren’t aware of. So, I was brought in and worked with this person. And one of the interesting bits of feedback I got was that the team loved this person. It was peers and people above that didn’t. And this person fiercely protected their team. They were warm, kind, they were a great mentor. So, I knew they were coachable. And what I found is they just had not realized that it wasn’t all about technical skills. It’s really back to that other question around the awareness. They worked on it. They realized they could lean in and relax a little and be more personable and that they weren’t going to be able to get their work done if they weren’t working as peers in a respectful way with other people. And after about six months, they got the promotion and that was very, very gratifying.

Eddie Turner:

That has to be. Fantastic. Yeah, so many times individuals don’t fully appreciate that it’s not about their technical prowess. It’s those soft skills that are derailing their careers. So, thank you for sharing this success story with us.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Sure.

Eddie Turner:

Amii, what’s the main message you’d like to make sure our listeners walk away from our conversation today with?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

For me, it would be really own your self-development. Consider it a continuous learning opportunity for the rest of your life and know that careers aren’t linear. Even from my own, if I drew it on a map, Eddie, it would look like a zigzag with some spirals or something. I think when we’re young, we think “Okay, I’m going to go to college, I’m going to work hard, I’m going to get a great job, I’m going to continue to work really hard, I’m going to know everything I need to know about what I need to do and it’s just a straight line.” And I think if anything this past year has proven, that’s not the case. And so, my hope is to inspire and motivate people to number one, not feel bad about that if they were hit hard in the pandemic and number two, help them focus on what they can control. And we can always learn more, we can always be open to feedback, we can really own a lot that will help us continue learning and have fulfilling lives and that’s really my goal.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you. And on the Keep Leading!® Podcast, I always like to know is there a quote or a piece of advice that you live by that helps you to keep leading?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Gosh, there are several. I love the quote by Peter Drucker that says “You should not change yourself but create yourself.” That means build around your strengths and removing bad habits.

Eddie Turner:

I like that. Thank you for sharing that. That’s a great quote for sure for leaders everywhere to keep leading.Amii, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed my conversation with you. Where can my listeners learn more about you?

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Thank you, Eddie. They can please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn and just mark in the comments that you’re a friend of Eddie’s, that you’ve been listening to his podcast so I know who you are. And then you can go to my website which is BarnardBah.com and you can download my free Promotability Index Assessment if you’re curious about where you stack up by texting the word ‘promoteme’ to 44222. And you can also visit on my website. And I’m also in all the places. I’m on Instagram and I’m on Twitter but I really like LinkedIn the best.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Well, we’re going to put all this in the show notes so people can reach out to you, Amii, follow you, connect with you and certainly take the Promotable Index Assessment to see how they stack up as a promotable leader. Thank you for being a guest.

Amii Barnard-Bah:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s been my pleasure.

Eddie Turner:

And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Thank you for listening to your host Eddie Turner on the Keep Leading!® Podcast. Please remember to subscribe to the Keep Leading!® Podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen. For more information about Eddie Turner’s work, please visit EddieTurnerLLC.com.

Thank you for listening to C Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator® as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe as they share their journey to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques and insights. For more information visit eddieturnerllc.com or follow Eddie Turner on Twitter and Instagram at @eddieturnerjr. Like Eddie Turner LLC on Facebook. Connect with Eddie Turner on LinkedIn.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 115 | How to Develop Promotable Leaders | Amii Barnard-Bahn appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Keep Leading!® Podcast 114 | The Value of Values | David Cohen

admin — Mon, 12 Jul 2021 12:08:17 +0000

David Cohen
Thought Leader on Corporate Culture & Behavioral Competencies and Contrarian Consultant
The Value of Values

Episode Summary
On Episode 114 of the Keep Leading!® podcast, I discussed the value of values in organizations with David Cohen. We see values in company mission statements and employee placards. What do they really mean? How can organizations improve in the application? Listen to this episode to learn the answer!

Check out the “60-Second Preview” of this episode!

Bio
Recognized as a global thought leader on the people side of the business. David has presented and consulted on five continents working with corporate leaders and employees to improve people practices enabling productivity and business success. He is considered a thought-provoking speaker who challenges the status quo on conventional thinking regarding corporate culture and organizational behaviors. As a result, he has earned the moniker: the contrarian consultant. He has worked with organizations across all business sectors, large and small, public and private, to help identify a firm’s DNA to ensure a meaningful people experience, resulting in positive employee experience, retention, and productivity. David began his consulting career in 1986. He has a doctorate in Organizational Behaviour from Boston University and graduate studies in education at Harvard School of Education.
David is a keynote speaker, educator, disruptor, facilitator, team builder, and executive coach.
He has authored two books and numerous articles in professional journals.
David is a member of the MG100 Coaches

Website
https://sagltd.com/

LinkedIn
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This podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up on business.

Eddie Turner:

Today I want to talk about values and specifically values in organizations. We see them on mission statements and company placards but what do they really mean and how can we improve in executing and living company values. Well, we’re going to talk about the value of values with educator and consultant Dr. David Cohen. Dr. David Cohen is recognized as a global thought leader on the people side of business. He has presented and consulted on five continents, working with corporate leaders and employees to improve people practices enabling productivity and business success. Among other things, he’s the author of two books and numerous articles in professional journals. He’s a fellow member of Marshall Goldsmith’s 100 Coaches and most recently was selected as one of the world’s Top 30 Organizational Cultural Professionals for 2021. Here with me today to talk about the value of values is Dr. David Cohen.

David, welcome to the program.

Dr. David Cohen:

Thank you. A pleasure to be here.

Eddie Turner:

Tell me what I missed.

Dr. David Cohen:

I don’t think you missed anything really. You covered it all. The only thing you missed is I have five grandchildren who I wish I could spend a lot of time with but pandemic prevents that.

Eddie Turner:

All right. Well, when you talk about five grandchildren, I suspect that there’s some value behind values dealing with them.

Dr. David Cohen:

No, there is. That’s something that I’ve been working on. And in the Jewish tradition, there’s a thing called an ethical will where you pass on to your children and grandchildren the belief system you hold that you hope they understand it and can be a legacy to make you proud. So, I’ve been working on one for a long time.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. How do we do that in companies?

Dr. David Cohen:

That’s a great idea. I’ve been thinking about doing that. The more I got into this, the more I think about “What is the ethical will?” because one of the things that I talk to leaders about, especially the HR leaders, they say “Don’t talk to your CEO or your executive team about values and vision because they’re just going to think that that’s your job as HR. That’s the bunny hugging tree kissing stuff. There’s a lynch word that gets them too excited about the concept. So, the back door into this is to talk about your legacy. What do you hope is your legacy? What do you hope to hear, you’re retired, you’re on vacation in Europe and you hear it on the table next to you a young person who is going back to work after the vacation’s over and really excited to join what was your organization for all the reasons you hoped that they would join it and you get really excited. What is your legacy going to be? Why is your legacy? What are the behaviors that created that legacy and where did that come from?” And, in essence, it comes from your belief system, your values. So, that’s how I got into it.

Eddie Turner:

All right. Well, what are values?

Dr. David Cohen:

Values, by my definition, are four things – strongly held beliefs, emotionally charged, resistant to change, universally – applied meaning that it doesn’t matter whether you’re the intern who just started as a college co-op or whether you’re the CEO, the values are the same for everybody in the organization, universally applied. And those values make it a psychologically safe place to work because the values are the norms of behavior that are accepted over time to differentiate right from wrong. So, one of the things which I always find sad and humorous at the same time is when I hear about people coming in to change corporate culture. And culture doesn’t change. If the foundation for culture is the values, it’s really hard to change our values. And if we can’t change our values, then how can you change corporate culture?

Eddie Turner:

Why is it hard to change values.

Dr. David Cohen:

Because it’s our belief system that’s strongly held, emotionally charged, resists change. That’s the definition, to me, of a value. As a result of that, we have built up those values over time. We have learned that this is our belief system because this is what either our parents taught us or something happened in adolescence, it gets reinforced through college or university. And by the time we hit young adulthood, we have a pretty set belief system that’s not going to change unless there’s a significant emotional event in our life such as having a child, losing a loved one or even this pandemic could cause somebody to change their perspective. That, to me, is probably the only incidents that are going to cause people without even realizing it perhaps to change what they find is important, what they cherish, how they treat people is acceptable or unacceptable.

Eddie Turner:

Well, every company is trying to establish values and rally people around a common set of core values but since they’re so deeply personal, as you mentioned, how do you do that when everyone has a different sense of what’s right or wrong or what’s important?

Dr. David Cohen:

Well, that’s a great question. First of all, I always find it interesting that we want to find out what our values are. Whether you have a defined set of values or not, you have a set of values, you have a corporate culture that exists. You might not have taken the time to define it but believe me your employees know exactly what it is. And people often ask me what’s a successful culture, what does it look like. I say “Are your people staying with you, are they engaged, are your retention numbers high and your profit, your bottom-line cash flow is really strong, you have a successful culture” but you’re right, different people have different value sense. So, in order, to me, to have a successful employee experience, you have to know what the behaviors are that define your values. So, for instance, to say that we value trust, well, what does trust mean, what are the behaviors that define trust. And once you identify that, you can identify what makes your definition of trust different from the definition of trust at the person across the street because no two organizations have exactly the same culture. We’ve all heard of the person who gets stolen away by the competition and within a week or two is coming back asking for their job back because they found out the grass isn’t greener on the other side and they don’t like working there. It’s the same company basically doing the same thing, the same products, same industry. The only difference was the way one organization behaves internally versus the others. And what the person finds out is the other organization has a different set of internal behaviors, has a different belief system, has a different way they treat their customers, they treat their employees, management makes decisions. They’re unhappy with it. They realize they were happy at the other one and they go back. So, no two organizations have exactly the same. So, how do you do this? The first thing is you have to identify what your values are. Unfortunately, most organizations, in my opinion, identify aspirational values.

Eddie Turner:

Such as.

Dr. David Cohen:

Such as any of them, any values. I mean, I’m working with a company right now, she’ll go nameless. The CEO claimed they didn’t have to live the values because they’re aspirational, all right? And one of them, let’s say, was caring. And they made a decision on the executive team where he allowed one of his direct reports to do things which didn’t demonstrate the behaviors of caring to her people. And people got really upset because it felt like that this woman had special privilege, he was getting away with things, etc., etc. And when I confronted him on it, he said “Well, the values are aspirational. We’re moving towards them.” And I said “Once you publish them, people will expect that they’re going to be lived. They no longer are aspirational.” He, unfortunately, didn’t agree with that and I don’t work with them anymore but the fact is that the values, the way I go about defining them, are from what I call the corporate legends within the organization – what are the stories that exemplify people having lived your values.

Eddie Turner:

It sounds as if this client was using the idea that they’re aspirational as an excuse for inaction.

Dr. David Cohen:

Yes. No, as an excuse, yeah, for inaction. I’m not following him. And then he went into this whole thing “Well, we live some of the values some of the time and other values other times.” And I said “No, the concept of values are all of equal importance.” You mentioned the word that, to me, is like rubbing chalk inappropriately on a chalkboard in the old days, showing my age, and the reality is there’s no such thing as core values. And it’s a philosophical thing, I know, but core values indicate there might be a backup set of values like I got my core indicators here and then I got my surrounding indicators there. No, we have a set of values. And reality is we all think we have values but they turn out to be beliefs if they’re challenged and we give them up. What we don’t give up, we don’t compromise on are values.

Eddie Turner:

Well, that’s a really good definition. Difference between a belief and a value – we will change our beliefs but we will not compromise on our values. I like that definition.

Dr. David Cohen:

And, to me, one of the best examples on the corporate world was what Howard Schultz did at Starbucks when he gave out same-sex insurance to his employees, part-time and full-time, and he got challenged at the next board meeting by a gentleman saying how could he do this and what could he do and it goes on and on and Shultz looks at him and says respectfully “If you don’t like the way what we’re doing … In the last year our share price has gone up 37%. If you don’t like it, please take your money and go somewhere else” because he would not give in to this myth that shareholders have a hold over leadership of the company. He will do the right thing no matter what. There was an interview that, forgot his name, the Canadian, Mr. Wonderful Dragon’s Den, he accused Starbucks of worrying more about employees and worrying about the bottom line, that the corporate purpose is to create wealth for shareholders. That’s not the purpose. That’s a byproduct of doing business correctly. And once you do business correctly, then you’ve got the right set of values, you’ve got the right behaviors and you’re successful.

Eddie Turner:

So, is that the value of values?

Dr. David Cohen:

The value of values is, yeah, you will make the right decision in difficult times. And the value of values is you set a psychologically safe environment. The problem is that there’s usually in organizations two sets of values. There are overt and covert values. The overt values are the ones on the boardroom wall or your website, which every time an employee looks at, they kind of scoff at it and becomes cynical because nobody in leadership ever lives them and probably most of the employees don’t. And then there’s a covert set of values. The covert set of values are what you don’t learn at orientation or onboarding. You learn just before you make a mistake and somebody who likes you tells you “We don’t do it that way around here” or “That’s not how you approach senior leaders.” Now, the values might indicate that it’s an open environment where there’s freedom of communication but in reality, everybody’s got the old carbon copy in their desk proving that they had 12 approvals of it before they went ahead and did it. So, to me, there’s two sets of values. When the overt and covert values are one and the same, you have a healthy organization, you have an organization that believes in itself, makes the right decisions regardless of what’s going on around them.

Eddie Turner:

Should organizations, if they’re going to live values, hire for values?

Dr. David Cohen:

Yes. Now, this is a big debate because there’s a lot of people who say that “If I hire for values, I’m perpetuating the old boys school.” And I’m glad you brought that up because there’s this concept that we hire like ourselves, which in some cases, unfortunately, is true. You are in the southern US. I’m in Canada. You got somebody in Asia. You got somebody in India. You got somebody in Saudi Arabia. We can all have a very similar belief system within, I call it, the curb stones. It’s like a four-lane highway. So, there’s a belief system and we all have a common understanding. We can all join that same company and we can all come at things with our own background, our own perspective, our own diversity but yet we will treat each other the way each other wants to be treated. Therefore, when you hire for values, you hire people who will make the right decision in difficult times, will do the right thing when nobody’s watching them. So, hiring for values has got a bad reputation where people have mistakenly, in my opinion, said “Well, no, if you hire for value, everybody’s the same.” I worked in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia with the Islamic Development Corporation. I worked with the University of Notre Dame with senior leadership on performance management and values. I’m not roman catholic and I’m not Muslim but I enjoyed those two organizations in particular because there was a similarity in belief systems, there was a similarity in outlook on making the world a better place. I mean, University of Notre Dame is very focused on that. University of Notre Dame would not compromise athletic teams. The president of the university with a great deal of pride said to me “None of our teams have ever missed more than one day of class to go to a ball game. Education comes first.” That’s a values-based organization that is very focused on, yeah, winning football is really important but it’s not the purpose of the school. The purpose of the school is to give a solid education, a religious-based education to our students who choose to go here. The Islamic Development Bank has representation from, I think, it is 72 different Muslim countries. People from all over the world work there but they have a purpose which is rooted in a set of values which says “We are giving funding to improve healthcare, improve infrastructure, improve schools.” There’s a purpose to it. So, it doesn’t really matter where you’re coming from in the world. If you have a similar set of values, you can now have people from diverse backgrounds, economic systems, geographic systems that all have a similar belief system and get along very well and create the kind of ideas that were never created before.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Well, we’re talking about the value of values with Dr. David Cohen. I’m enjoying this discussion and we will continue to learn more from Dr. David Cohen right after this.

This is Manbir Kaur, executive and leadership coach and author and you’re listening to the Keep Leading!® Podcast with Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:

We’re back. I’m talking to Dr. David Cohen. Dr. David Cohen is an educator and a consultant. He is also one of the world’s top 30 Organizational Culture Professionals for 2021 as ranked by Global Gurus.

Now, David, you were explaining to us before the break the difference between values and beliefs. I loved your definition that your beliefs can change but our values, we’re going to hold on to those. And then we talked about why that matters for organizations but you also mentioned culture. And many of us who worked in the talent development space or organizational development space, we hear the phrase “Culture eats strategy for breakfast.” Is that true?

Dr. David Cohen:

Yes, it is, but Peter Drucker says he never said it. So, we don’t really know who said it and what is confusing to me is when organizations and consultants talk about changing their culture. And when you analyze it, they’re changing their strategy. And so, I challenge anybody to say you’re changing the culture if you’re not changing the values. A change of strategy is going to be more successful if you celebrate your values, celebrate your culture, get people excited and understanding what it means to move forward. That’s why I often call the work I do a back to the future exercise. Strayed from what made us great. New CEOs have come in, they tried to put their stamp on it and there’s always those employees that have been there a while who say “In the old days, it was good because they were more successful. People did get along better.” So, often, it’s simply about finding about your roots and finding out where you’re from and what made you great and then celebrating that. Culture is stronger because of the value system, as I said, evolve, they don’t change. Values evolve slowly. So, if we can celebrate our values, we will make strategy stronger. If we use our changing strategy to say there’s a change in culture, I think you confuse the inmates and there’s a psychological safety that you’re pulling out from underneath them.

Eddie Turner:

Well, you shared with us some of the biggest mistakes you see companies making earlier in terms of number one, having these and not living them and calling them aspirational but who’s getting it right in this space?

Dr. David Cohen:

There’s a lot of people are getting it right in this space. I mean, to name a few, there’s a company I work with in Fort Lauderdale, Florida called HEICO Aerospace and they make all decisions based on their value set. They don’t call them values. They call them factors for success because at the time, the CEO didn’t want to call them values. So, they’re factors for success. For instance, they have a certain way they’d treat people in that values and they’ve grown exponentially because of purchase and growth. And when they bought a firm, for instance, in Arizona, a right to work state, they could have fired everybody but that’s not the way they treat people, that’s not their policy. And when they sat everybody down, it was a small firm and they set the 40 people down before letting them go, they also told them that they would get one-week salary for every year they worked there. Some people worked there 20 something years. And these peoples basically started to cry. They were in a state of shock. They all wanted to come work for the company. They couldn’t if they’d have to move locations and they were not going to pay for anybody to move. So, values, you know that when something happens, you’ll do the right thing.

I’ll give you another example, one of my favorite examples, of a corporate legend which means living your values is when Michelin Tires in the 1980s when there was a global recession, depression actually, and cars weren’t being made. Therefore, they don’t have to make new tires and they closed down three plants in Canada. And that was for almost two years. And for every two weeks, every employee got their paycheck. Nobody misses. They don’t lay anybody off or anything else. However, here’s the advantage to it. Not only they lived their values, they also were the first ones making tires. And therefore, they sold more tires and made up the difference. It was a strategic move based on their values. Another move that happened at Michelin is a young employee who was working there a very short period time, hourly employee, had a very sick child, had to be flown to Toronto for the hospital for children here. And Michelin, to tell the story in short order, basically paid for him to go with his family, which isn’t covered by provincial insurance, and they also paid for his hotel and some of his food while he was here because the honorarium the province gives him basically didn’t even pay for parking in Toronto. And when he got upset and said “I can’t go because I’ve only worked here for 10 months and I got to pay my bills, etc., etc.,” the general manager of manufacturing said to him “Now your job assignment is to be with your kids, your wife and child until further notice.” Now, fast forward some 35 years and one of the senior people at the corporate head office had a wife who was severely ill needed to be treated for in Philadelphia and they paid for him. They didn’t stop paying his salary. He was supposed to be in France every four or five weeks. He didn’t go to France. He didn’t even go to the office for almost a year. He did everything on telephone long before the pandemic. So, they treated him as a CHLO the same way they treated their hourly employee 30 years before that. So, that to me is when organizations live their values. Starbucks lives their values.

There’s a lot of organizations out there that actually do a pretty good job with this. It’s not storybook. It’s real. And as a result of that, they have people that … Home Depot has regained its values it lost under Nardelli and when Nardelli left with a nice payout of 260 million dollars, the replacement CEO went to the founders and said “What made this organization so great? Why did people bleed orange? What do I do to bring it back to the way it was?” And it all had to do with the treatment of people. And it didn’t have to do with a change in strategy because some of the Nardelli’s strategies were really good. So, that’s why I’m saying that strategy is great but first you have to define your values, then you define your vision and what is that future state you hope to achieve but never probably will, it’s that North Star I call it, the golden ring on the merry-go-round you’re always after, you’re always focused on it, and then you put your strategy together because the test of the correctness of your strategy is it will move you towards your vision and treat your people according to the values.

One of the hospitals I worked with, Mass General Hospital, is over 200 years old and they are a values-based organization that will treat their people the same way, make similar decisions that were made 200 years ago when it was founded. It’s about people first and care first. So, it’s very interesting. There are a lot of hospitals today that are worried about money first, not care, unfortunately. And so, to me, that’s when organizations make a difference.

The other thing I want to say to really cause people to think, I hope, is integrity is not a value. Everybody argues that integrity is a value. When you try to define integrity, you start defining your other values – caring about people, respect, doing what we say we’re going to do, etc., etc. And one of the organizations I worked with was the Calgary Police Service which had a G8 meeting and only four arrests and no property damage because they lived their values. And the chief of police Christine Silverberg actually, while we were discussing this, sort of came up with what I consider a brilliant idea. She said “The Calgary Police Service will have integrity when we live our values.” So, I think integrity is an outcome of living your values. It’s not a value unto itself.

Eddie Turner:

Very nice. Thank you, David. And David, you’ve written a couple of books. Can you tell us, if we’re listening to this conversation and we want to learn more about your work, tell us both books, what they’re called, which one should we pick up first?

Dr. David Cohen:

Well, if it’s the subject of leadership values, corporate legends, it’s Inside the Box. It’s called Inside the Box for two reasons. One, I don’t believe your values can go outside. You can’t get creative with your values and do things that are not aligned to your values plus the fact that my family, my grandfather, my father were both in the box business. And there’s stories in the beginning and in the end of the book about how they lived their values and put their values first. So, it’s called Inside the Box. It’s available only now as an e-reader and the best place to get it is download it directly from the publisher Wiley as any reader. The other one is called The Talent Edge and it’s about how to rate behavioral competencies and do structured behavioral interviewing so you can hire successfully to fit the culture of the organization, also by Wiley and also downloadable at any place but I think people find them more accessible at Wiley or they can go to my website which is SagLtd.com. And I have numerous articles there or at my LinkedIn site, numerous articles on culture, values, leadership, etc.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. Well, we’re going to drop a link to your website and to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so people can connect with you and follow your work.

Dr. David Cohen:

That’d be great. Thank you very much.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you for spending time with me today talking about the value of values so we can keep leading.

All right, everyone, that concludes this episode. This is Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Thank you for listening to C Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 114 | The Value of Values | David Cohen appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Keep Leading!® Podcast 113 | Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em | Beverly Kaye

admin — Sun, 04 Jul 2021 13:36:10 +0000

Beverly Kaye
Founder and CEO – BevKaye&Co.
Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em

Episode Summary
I had a fascinating conversation with Bev Kaye, the author of the number one bestselling employee retention book in the world—Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em (over 800,000 copies sold)! We talked about the newly released sixth edition of her book and lessons from her award-winning career.

Check out the “60-Second Preview” of this episode!

Bio
Dr. Beverly Kaye’s name is recognized internationally as a professional dedicated to helping individuals, managers, and organizations understand the practical “how-to” principles of employee development, engagement, and retention. Her books and learning materials have stood the test of time.

In 2018, ATD honored her with their Lifetime Achievement Award, recognizing her advanced knowledge and extensive practice across the talent development field, her thought leadership, and her contributions to the profession. ISA (The Association of Learning Professionals) also honored her with their 2018 Thought Leadership Award for her body of work supporting work-related learning and performance has significantly influenced people and organizations. Beverly’s books include Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em, Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go, Hello Stay Interviews, Goodbye Talent Loss, and Up is Not the Only Way. In 2019, Beverly was recognized by the Institute for Management Studies (IMS) with its Lifetime Achievement Award.

Website
https://bevkaye.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bevkaye/

Twitter
https://twitter.com/BeverlyLKaye

Leadership Quote
” We don’t receive wisdom. We must discover it ourselves, after a journey that no one can take from us or spare us.” – Marcel Proust

Get Your Copy of Beverly’s Book!
https://bevkaye.com/books/

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Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Transcript

This podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up on business.

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and motivational speaking.Today, I’d like to talk about how we develop talent in organizations, the talent cycle. I have an expert with me today that says you love them or lose them. That expert is none other than the internationally recognized Dr. Beverly Kaye. Dr. Beverly Kaye is internationally recognized as a professional dedicated to helping individuals, managers and organizations understand the practical how-to principles of employee development, engagement and retention. She has been honored with lifetime achievement awards from two major organizations and has received lifetime achievement awards from major organizations such as ATD – the Association for Talent Development, and ISA, the Association for Learning Professionals.

Dr. Kaye, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, thank you, Eddie. It is a pleasure to be here.

Eddie Turner:

I am simply thrilled to have you here. You are someone who throughout my career I have heard about, certainly, the title of your books but the honor to finally meet you and be with you is truly, truly wonderful. Can you tell my listeners who are not familiar with your name, the few that don’t know, a little bit more about your background?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Sure. I came to this world of Human Resources not in really a planful way, I guess. And that’s sad to say for someone who specializes in career development but I have always been interested in how people choose careers and how they often think there’s one path to a career that I set up in my head that I want and they don’t often have contingency plans. And I spent a number of years as a college dean in elite institutions and I watched really smart kids not be able to make their career go the way they wanted to. And when I had a chance to go back for my doctorate, I chose career development in organizations as my doctoral thesis and I began to look at how organizations do or don’t really grow their people. And out of all of that came my first book which was called Up Is Not the Only Way and I am still singing that song that individuals have to look at multiple ways to move and grow in their careers and the vertical move is simply just one of them. And all the interest in careers got me interested in why people stay and why people go. And I learned that people leave organizations if they don’t see a career path for themselves. And that moved me into the world of engagement and retention. And the book that is most recent and in its sixth edition with like 8,00,000 copies out there is titled Love Them or Lose Them: Getting Good People to Stay and it is about different ways to show that you love your employees even if you don’t use that word. It’s just the best word I know because it means so many things. So, treat your people well and you have a chance of keeping them.

Eddie Turner:

Now, you said a lot there and I want to unpack a couple of those. One of those titles that you mentioned is one that I feel is so important, I think they’re all important, but especially this when you say Up Is Not the Only Way. The subtitle that you have on that book is Rethinking Career Mobility.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Right.

Eddie Turner:

And, yes, so many people have been told “Pick a lane. Stay there. Up is the only way to go. And don’t try to be a jack of all trades, don’t try to explore your passions” and other advice that people may give but you say the exact opposite.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Right. I think if we only could separate the word ‘career’ from the word ‘development’. I think when we attach those two words, it starts us thinking about the vertical career path. If we just use the word ‘development’, it’s all about growth. And I can grow in a myriad of different ways. I can grow by moving laterally. I can grow by staying right where I am and growing in place, enriching. I can even grow by moving down into something else that could get me a whole new start in a new area or maybe I’m one of those technical people promoted to management who says “Oh my gosh, this is not what I thought it was. Get me back to my wonderful technical work.” And if organizations don’t realize all those paths and make them viable, then they will lose precious talent.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And you don’t have to get locked into one career. You can and should have contingency plans. And so, that’s just a fascinating title and the content that supports it. Now, your titles, not just that book, here are some of the other titles. You’ve mentioned Love Them or Leave Them but you also have Love It, Don’t Leave It: Help Them Grow or Watch Them Go. I just simply love these because coming up with the title is perhaps the hardest part of writing a book.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

It is. It is. And I work with a publisher who taught me that the title, not even the subtitle, the title has to tell the story of the entire book. And so, the struggle to find, just looking at the title alone, should teach you the lesson that you want to teach like Up Is Not the Only Way, like Love Them or Lose Them, etc. So, they all kind of do that. And you’re right, it’s the title that the whole book hangs on.

Eddie Turner:

Bev, I wish I knew you when I wrote my first book. My title, I look back at it now, and I’m not as excited about it especially when I look at your titles. So, you’re right. It does tell a story just in the title before you get to the subtitle. And then of course you have that content inside that supports it. Would you say that the titles have played a part in the longevity of your work?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

I hadn’t thought about that but I think so because my major books in career development have stayed alive for four decades. And this Love Them or Lose Them book has been around for 20 years, six editions. So, maybe people remember the title and that gives credence to the book.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And sixth edition which just was released, when?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

March.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. So, you just released the sixth edition, 20 years it’s been out, sold over 800,000 copies globally in almost 30 different languages.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Right.

Eddie Turner:

Fascinating.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

So, everybody would know how to love them by now, huh?

Eddie Turner:

Yes, you would think so but if they had learned, you wouldn’t have had to make five revisions. So, what’s keeping people from applying this the way they should?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

The age old “I’m too busy” and “I have so much on my plate. I have more pressure than ever. I can’t make time.” It’s like I always think managers have the will but not always the skill. And so, we have to give them the skills in ways that they say “That’s not so hard. I could do that.” So, in all the workshops we’ve done around the globe, I want any manager sitting there to say “Hey, that’s not so hard.” And the same thing with the work we’ve done for employees, I want the employee to say “I could do that. I could try that. That’s not so insurmountable.” So, I love making things practical and memorable and I have the theory but I like to build practical on top of the theory.

Eddie Turner:

So, managers have the will but not the skill. So, you make it practical so that it’s memorable.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Right.

Eddie Turner:

And you’ve practiced what you’ve preached because you have had this career yourself, as you mentioned, where you were a professor, where you were a dean and you are now one of the most sought-after thought leaders who spend every week on the road carrying your message near and far.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, I’m one of many thought leaders who do that and I’m lucky that the subjects I’ve picked happen to be evergreen. And so, I thank my lucky stars that they’ve stayed evergreen.

Eddie Turner:

And something else that I noticed when we were talking about your work, the word ‘love’ is prominently featured – Love Them or Leave Them; love it, don’t leave it. You said earlier that that’s just the only word you know how to use. What’s behind that?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, 20 years ago, when we said we wanted the title to have ‘love’, it our publisher said “Can’t you find another word? Do you think that on a business shelf that men will walk in and buy a book on love?” And we said “It is the only word that stands for so much. It stands for recognize them, thank them, reward them, listen to them, acknowledge them.” And on the back of the book, it says “Admit it you love them even if you don’t use that word.”

Eddie Turner:

Oh wow!

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

They are your talent. They are your diverse talent. And they are important to you for meeting your own goals.

Eddie Turner:

Well, you were onto something, Bev. And, obviously, time and sales have proven that you were onto something. And our dear friend who we were together at the Marshall Goldsmith annual meeting, the first one in 2020, before the whole world changed, and our dear friend Alan Mulally spoke and you say “Love them or leave them,” Alan said to love them up when he was talking about the work that he did to change organizations.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Right. And I just have to say it’s “love them or lose them.” It’s not “Love them or leave them.” And there’s a big difference because sometimes we lose people and they stay and they are not engaged and they lose their motivation and then staying is not so good.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you for correcting me. And that shows my poor writing because when I wrote my notes, for whatever silly reason, I wrote it wrong. Thank you.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

The employee book is Love It, Don’t Leave It.

Eddie Turner:

Yes.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

So, give your job a chance. Don’t jump ship before you’ve really thought about why you’re going and what you want elsewhere. So, it’s a very easy mistake to make and plenty of people make it. The other part of the title is Getting Good People to Stay. And I am always amazed just in my own career, my own work how many organizations define good as their top 10%, their high potentials. And I think we have to look at the entirety of our talent market and not just say “Its high potentials that we want to love.” I think there’s buried treasure out there.

Eddie Turner:

That’s a good way of looking at it. Buried treasure.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Buried treasure.

Eddie Turner:

Now, obviously, that comes from the GE world, I spent 10 years at GE, and that was the Jack Welch mantra and people have found years later that maybe that wasn’t the best way of looking at it. So, I really appreciate what you’re saying here.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Good, good.

Eddie Turner:

Well, we are talking to the internationally known author, speaker, thought leader Dr. Beverly Kaye. We are talking about the talent development, career development and her book Love Them or Lose Them: Getting Good People to Stay. It’s a never-ending message that has been sustained for over 20 years.We’ll have more from Dr. Beverly Kaye right after this.

This is Greg Williams, the master negotiator and body language expert and you’re listening to the Keep Leading!® Podcast with Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:

We’re back, everyone. I’m talking to Dr. Beverly Kaye, an internationally known and recognized, respected authority on what it takes to retain employees, develop employees and she has been talking about this as a keynote speaker, writing about it for over 20 years with her main title Love Them or Lose Them, being translated in almost 30 different languages, more than 800,000 copies have been sold.Well, Bev, before we took the break you were talking about the different books that you have written and what those messages are and one of them that you mentioned was “Love It, don’t Leave It” because sometimes people regret making the decision to leave too soon. I’ve never had that experience. So, tell me what is it that people regret?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, I think they don’t think of everything they’re leaving. I think they don’t think of the camaraderie they’ve built in their organization and their work unit. I don’t think they think about the fact that they’ve learned how to negotiate their own organization, how to get what they need when they need it and take some negotiating. And I think we think we can just jump into the new climate, the new adventure with ease. And it takes time. That’s why so many companies are investing right now in onboarding and re-boarding and all of that. So, I think we do make hasty decisions. And Love It, Don’t Leave It came to be when managers said to us “Is all of this on our shoulders? Are we the ones who have to engage?” and we said “Oh my gosh, no. People have to learn to ask for what they want and engage themselves.” So, it is a two-way street.

Eddie Turner:

Everyone doesn’t know how to ask though. Do you have suggestions?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, it’s interesting, both books are written according to the alphabet with 26 ideas that come from our research and A is for Ask. And the interesting thing for managers is ask your people what you can do to keep them, ask your people what they love most about their job. Don’t ask them what you can do to keep them at the exit interview. So, Ask is primary to every single other strategy. As I said, on the individual side, if you don’t ask, your manager can’t read your mind. So, if you’re finding that the work you’re doing is not using the best of you, then you have to ask and tell what it is you want to be doing more of. So, on both sides, I think, Ask is critical.

Eddie Turner:

I am so glad you brought that out. I have long said, when it comes to exit interviews, that I think you ought to consider having about to exit interviews with people because we wait until a person is leaving and find out what we could have done differently when it’s too late now that talent goes across the street to the competition or in some cases goes out and forms its own competitive organization against this company that they were leaving.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Absolutely. And the other book that’s out there is a book called Stay Interviews. And it’s one that we wrote based on that Ask chapter. So, we say have a stay interview and have it constantly and ask your people why they stay before they come in to say “I’m going.”

Eddie Turner:

Excellent.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Very important.

Eddie Turner:

And the other reason why I’ve long had strong feelings about exit interviews is that in some cases, the data isn’t really used. The departments that capture it are not following up and saying “Hey, here’s what’s happening with this individual. How can we keep this from happening in the future?” Too often it’s either discarded or discounted.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Exactly, exactly. And in many of the companies that we’ve consulted to, we’ve had managers do Alas clinics like “Alas, we lost him. What could we have done?” and actually talk about what they might have done. And without that debrief, it happens over and over and over.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed, indeed. So, what’s been the best story that’s come back that someone’s wrote you about and told you how reading one of your books has changed your life or how it helped them make a better decision?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

There’s a chapter in Love Them about values. And there is a part of what we do in career development around values. And I’ve had people come back to me, who have been through a workshop and done a values exercise, and say they’ve kept it for years and looked at it from time to time to say “Is the work I’m doing meeting my values?” And for some, it’s been “No, it’s not. It’s time I may be looked around.” And for others “Yes, it still is.” Although the values are the same but they’re getting met in some new ways. So, I think I’ve had value conversations with people who have read my books or gone through our workshops years ago and that always thrills me.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. You’ve written so many books. Is there one that people should start with? Should they start with Love Them or Lose Them or should they start with one of the others?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

I don’t know. I think Love Them, in it is tucked in everything else. So, maybe that’s the most comprehensive because when you love them, you develop their careers; when you love them, you build their self-worth; when you love them, you keep them. So, maybe it’s the best one to start with.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Thank you for confirming that for those who would be wondering which of these should they pick up first. Now, your career has spanned across four decades. You’ve worked with the top thought leaders in the world. Just tell us a little bit about an occasion where perhaps you’ve collaborated with one of these great thought leaders Marshall Goldsmith, Sally Hegelson, any of these people and you feel like “Wow! We did something pretty special there.”

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, I am very lucky that I’ve grown up with the field and many of my friends have grown up with me in the field and they have written books and they have become famous and everyone in their own plot of land. And I love seeing Sally’s work and Marshall’s work and Jim Cruz’s work and all of them become used over time. And I have been very lucky to be with a group of thought leaders that keep me thinking and keep me growing and doing and not just through the good times but through those darn bad times as well, which we have all had plenty of.

Eddie Turner:

All of you all have contributed to a whole generation of us learning, growing, developing. And so, now we have to see what the future holds because you all are going to be a tough group to top.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Well, it’s your turn now.

Eddie Turner:

I like how you turned that around. I was perhaps trying to address anyone of the 80 countries this podcast is downloaded in to pick up the mantle. You put it on me, Bev. Okay.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Yeah, yeah.

Eddie Turner:

That’s a nice curveball you throw at me. All right, I’ll take it. Well, Bev, tell me please what’s the main message you’d like to leave our listeners with of today’s show?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

You made me, when I filled out your form, think of a quote that was a favorite quote and I sent you a quote by Marcel Proust that goes like this. “We don’t receive wisdom. We must discover it for ourselves after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.” And I think in every valley that I’ve been through in my life, I’ve learned from it. And while the valleys seem like they’ll never end, they do. And when you come out, you do come out with new wisdom. So, I have that quote hanging on my bulletin board.

Eddie Turner:

That is a wonderful quote indeed.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Thank you.

Eddie Turner:

And where can my listeners learn more about you?

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

I’ve got a website BevKaye.com and I am once again a solopreneur having sold my company but I still do all that work and would welcome people to come visit the website.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. So, we’ll put your website, we’ll put your LinkedIn profile and Twitter and all that into the show notes so people can click on it and have easy access to you. If you are not already following Bev Kaye, I encourage you to do so. Follow her on Twitter, connect with her on LinkedIn, visit her website, download one of those books, two of the books, three of the books, get all five because she truly is a thought leader to follow, to learn from.And, Bev, I am just so grateful to you for being a guest today on the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Dr. Beverly Kaye:

Thank you. it really has been a pleasure. I mean, everybody says it’s been a pleasure but I really mean it. It has been a pleasure. So, thank you.

Eddie Turner:

Well, I feel the same way. Thank you, Bev.And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Thank you for listening to C Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 113 | Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em | Beverly Kaye appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Keep Leading!® Podcast 112 | Trust Yourself as a Leader | Melody Wilding

admin — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 10:32:40 +0000

Melody Wilding
Executive Coach to Sensitive Strivers® and HBR Contributor
Trust Yourself as a Leader

Episode Summary
Brene Brown gave readers the courage to be vulnerable. Susan Cain reminded introverts of the power of being quiet. In 2021, Melody Wilding has emerged as the expert reframing the intersection of ambition and sensitivity as a strength! Listen to this episode to learn how to Trust yourself!

Check out the “60-Second Preview” of this episode!

Bio
Melody Wilding, LMSW, is an executive coach, human behavior expert, and author of Trust Yourself: Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work. She has coached hundreds of private clients, from CEOs and Fortune 500 executives to leaders from the US Department of Education, the Federal Reserve, and the United Nations. She teaches graduate-level human behavior and psychology at the Silberman School of Social Work at Hunter College in New York. Her writing is regularly featured on Medium and in Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, Business Insider, and Quartz. Her advice has been featured in the New York Times, The Cut, Oprah Magazine, NBC News, US News, and World Report, and more.

Website
https://melodywilding.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/melodywilding/

Twitter
https://twitter.com/MelodyWilding

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/melodywildinglmsw

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/melodywilding/

Leadership Quote
“Don’t wait to be praised, anointed, or validated. Don’t wait for someone to give you permission to lead.” –– Tara Mohr

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Transcript

This podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up on business.

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and motivational speaking.Brené Brown gave readers the courage to be vulnerable. Susan Kane reminded introverts of the power of being quiet. In 2021, Melody Wilding has emerged as the expert reframing the intersection of ambition and sensitivity as a strength. I am excited to delve into that with Melody Wilding. Melody Wilding is an executive coach and human behavior expert. She is the author of Trust Yourself: Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work. She’s been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, Business Insider, New York Times, NBC News, and Oprah Magazine, just to name a few.

Melody, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

Melody Wilding:

It’s a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you so much for having me.

Eddie Turner:

Oh, I am just delighted to have you, Melody. Melody, It’s not often that I have a guest or have someone who listens to the show approach me and say “Listen, you’ve got to interview someone who I am interested in having you talk to” and that is Fred Amador. He’s a friend of the Keep Leading!® Podcast and typically, I’m really picky about who I have on the show and when I looked at your materials, I was fascinated and I said “Yes, I must interview her.” So, Melody, tell our listeners a few things about you that I did not mention in the opening.

Melody Wilding:

Yes. So, you covered some of the biggest hits in terms of my professional background but where a lot of my work intersects, as you were talking about the intersection of ambition and sensitivity, in my new book Trust Yourself what I’ve done is put a label on that personality and talk about what I call a sensitive striver. And that moniker comes as much from my professional experience as it does from my personal experiences. So, I am this sensitive striver personality myself. I am someone who all my life has been very driven, career oriented, wanted to check all of the boxes and make sure I was doing everything right and be successful but also highly sensitive in that I am a deep thinker and feeler and always have been. And that combination of traits, when leveraged correctly, can be our superpower, makes us observant, perceptive, deep thinkers and contributors but many of us are not given the right tools to understand our sensitivity and ambition, especially not leverage it in the workplace and as leaders. And so, this work I am doing today with sensitive strivers is as much a product of my personal background as it is my professional background.

Eddie Turner:

So, the two have collided.

Melody Wilding:

Absolutely.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Yeah, when you use that phrase sensitive strivers, which you own, it’s your registered trademark, what’s the reaction, especially of men?

Melody Wilding:

That’s an interesting question. I have to say what’s been something I did not expect as I’ve talked more about sensitivity over the past few years is that the number of men in my community, especially male leaders, has grown substantially. And I think that’s because I think we’re starting to see a shift overall in the culture of leadership in our workplaces where we are starting to embrace more emotionality and taking more of a human-centered approach to work but, I think, talk talking about sensitivity, writing about it for places like Forbes and Harvard Business Review gave a lot of men permission to say “Actually, you know what, I am a very compassionate, heart-led deep-feeling leader. That’s who I am.” And so, that has been a really interesting side effect of talking about sensitivity that I did not anticipate in the slightest.

Eddie Turner:

That’s really good to hear. Would you say, Melody, that you’ve seen, you talked about this change and how people are responding to the phrase and how they’re responding to that quality, would you say that perhaps we’ve rewarded the wrong qualities for far too long and people are just ready for this and it’s the right time that your work is coming out?

Melody Wilding:

Yeah, I think what we saw was an emphasis on qualities in the workplace that lead to quick results, right? Being harsh, being mean, that sort of “I say jump and you ask how high” command and control mentality tends to get results quickly but I think what we’ve seen especially in the last 10-15 years or so is that the long-term consequence of that is that it leads to disengagement, burnout among your people, low retention and high turnover. And so, now, I think we’re starting to see that sea change where we see those consequences and now we’re starting to embrace this different view of what leadership can be being much more sensitive and empathetic and human-centered but I also think it’s colliding with some of the trends of technology and certainly the pandemic has accelerated so much of that where we bring all of ourselves to work now because there is no separation between work and life anymore, there’s such a blend between the two.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed, now more than ever. As you said, the pandemic has allowed qualities to come out that we perhaps would not have allowed to come out pre-pandemic or would have taken far longer to emerge and we’re more accepting of it.

Melody Wilding:

Exactly. We’re seeing people now taking Zoom calls from their bedrooms or having their little kids or their pets barge in. And so, yes, and we’re seeing people at their best and at their worst.

Eddie Turner:

Now, people have said that being sensitive is a bad trait. What do you say about that in your book?

Melody Wilding:

I say that we need to reclaim the word ‘sensitive’ and that is one reason why I termed it ‘Sensitive Striver’ and not ‘Empathetic High Achiever’ or something else. I didn’t want to dance around the word ‘sensitive’. And also, what I think people misunderstand about sensitivity, you use the word ‘trait’ which is very accurate, that sensitivity is a biological disposition and we don’t often realize that. We think it’s just a quality. We don’t see it and respect it as a personality trait just like introversion or extroversion. And so, people who are sensitive actually have different neurological wiring. Their brain lights up in different areas that are related to things like attention, planning for action, making connections and synthesizing information. And what I found really remarkable is if any of our listeners out there are sensitive, you may feel like you are a person who is a sponge. You can feel the feelings of people around you. And the neuroscience points to why that is a fact, which is because sensitive people have more active mirror neurons which are our empathy neurons. So, we are scanning the environment we are attuning to and noticing the nuances in people’s behavior which can be a tremendous asset. And so, I want to sort of correct that misunderstanding that sensitivity is a flaw when actually it’s an evolutionary advantage that has persisted because it helped a certain amount of the population, about 15% to 20% or one in five people, survive and really come out ahead in situations.

Eddie Turner:

And by using this phrase ‘Sensitive Strivers’, you’re saying it’s not just about owning it and being happy to accept it but it’s something to strive for. I love that. Do you have any tips for people who want to start to be more sensitive in a positive way?

Melody Wilding:

Yes. I think especially now what we can focus on is active listening. So often so many of us think we’re listening but we’re not. We’re in our own heads thinking about that email we have to send or that to-do we need to check off our list and we’re not actually paying attention to what is happening right in front of us and really attuning to and being present with that person. So, better active listening means asking more informed questions, what and how questions – “How did that make you feel? How did this come about? What is your perspective on this situation?” – taking the conversation deeper. And many times, active listening sounds like saying nothing at all, sounds like being silent, letting there be dead air instead of anxiously talking over them. And I see this a lot with managers and leaders with their direct reports that perhaps they’ll be in a one-on-one and they will just be talking, talking, talking, talking, talking and not leaving a moment of pause for their direct report to jump in or if their direct report shares something difficult or a challenge that they’re having, the manager automatically jumps in to help and try to fix the situation and “Let me figure out how to solve this” rather than leaving a moment of pause where the person could go deeper, where they may start coming up with solutions and ideas themselves. And so, that type of active listening is one way we can be much more sensitive and present with everyone around us.

Eddie Turner:

Active listening, step one. If we listen better, we will ask better questions. Thank you for explaining that. And if a person is not really sure how to listen better so that they can ask those better questions and not monopolize and dominate the conversation, where could they learn more about that?

Melody Wilding:

I have some resources on my website in terms of listening more effectively, questions that you can ask people. One of my favorite books on this topic that I think is so underestimated in the leadership world is Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg, I believe. Fantastic game-changing book about communication, about listening. It will change the way that you communicate with people.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you. And some people feel like “I’m really not showing up the way that I should or the way that I want to.” They feel like an imposter. What does your work reveal about that?

Melody Wilding:

Yes, imposter syndrome is the number one challenge that sensitive stivers come to me with and is particularly common the higher you rise and the further you advance because the pressure that you’re under tends to increase as does the ambiguity and uncertainty. The path is not as clear anymore. So, it’s much easier to read into situations and think “Oh my gosh, I have no idea what I’m doing here and everyone’s going to find that out” which is the core of imposter syndrome. So, very common for sensitive strivers because we tend to have a really deep thought. We are so self-aware that we tend to become self-conscious. So, whenever I’m working with clients around this, the first place we always have to start is by interrupting the negative self-talk that comes along with imposter syndrome, the self-talk that says you’re not good enough, you have no idea what you’re doing, everyone’s going to find out and they’re going to fire you, all of that negative self-talk that our mind automatically defaults to. One really powerful way to interrupt that is by naming your inner critic, giving that imposter syndrome a voice a name a moniker, an identity that is separate from you. So, personifying it. You can call it The Little Monster. Mine is called Bozo. I have one client who calls it his Darth Vader and he got a Darth Vader lego action figure to sit on his desk and it was just a helpful reminder that every time his negative chatter would start up in a board meeting or in all-hands meeting, he would be able to look at it and say “Not today, Darth” and put it in its place. So, that is first and foremost, really being able to recognize and interrupt the negative talk track of imposter syndrome.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Wonderful example.I’m talking to Melody Wilding. She is the coach to sensitive strivers and the author of Trust Yourself: Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work. We’ll have more with Melody right after this.

This is Dave Sanderson. You may know me from the last passenger off US Airways Flight 1549, The Miracle on the Hudson from the movie Sully and you’re listening to the Keep Leading!® Podcast with Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:

I’m back talking to the amazing Melody Wilding. She’s the coach to sensitive strivers. Her book Trust Yourself: Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work is the foundation of our conversation today and we want leaders to trust themselves. They second guess themselves too often as we discover as coaches. So, Melody, can you tell us how does being a sensitive striver, as we discussed before the break, relate to trusting yourself as a leader?

Melody Wilding:

Sensitive strivers, if any listeners are sensitive, you like me have probably been told your entire life that you take things too personally, you need to grow a thicker skin. And so, from a very young age, people who are sensitive high achievers, sensitive strivers internalize messages that “We’re not okay as we are. We can’t trust our own thinking and judgments.” And this further gets compounded by the ambition piece – “We want to succeed” – that sometimes we become so addicted and so dependent on external validation, on praise from other people, on pleasing others and doing things that will make us look likable in their eyes. So, many times sensitive strivers can be so spread thin and so led astray in their professional lives because they’re trying to please everyone else and make everybody else happy. And so, that is exactly why the book is called Trust Yourself because that is the outcome, that is the results I want for every person in this book. And every sensitive striver I have worked with over the past 10 years, the number one skill that helps them achieve what they want to achieve is greater self-trust, hands down.

Eddie Turner:

Greater self-trust. And when we don’t trust ourselves, is that where the overthinking comes in?

Melody Wilding:

100%. Second guessing, rumination or worse, going back on your decisions, letting louder, more dominant aggressive voices dominate and drown out yours.

Eddie Turner:

That’s one I don’t think about often but you’re right. I often think about being afraid to make a decision or paralysis through analysis and decision making but you’re right – “Okay, I finally made the decision but I’m not sure I made the right one. Let me go back and redo it.”

Melody Wilding:

Right, exactly. Backtracking.

Eddie Turner:

Yes, and that costs leaders not only on a personal level but specifically in the organizational context, there’s a real financial cost to the organization.

Melody Wilding:

Absolutely, as is there not listening to sensitive strivers. And if I may, I can give you a short story about this that might drive that point home.

Eddie Turner:

Please.

Melody Wilding:

So, sensitive strivers, as I mentioned, are very observant, perceptive because of the way our minds process information. We tend to make connections before other people. So, my clients are those leaders in the room who tend to be one or two steps ahead of other people to see “Oh, here’s why this strategy is not going to work” which on the upside saves really valuable time and money. So, I’ll give you the example of one of my clients. I will call her Rebecca. She was a research and development director at a pharmaceutical company. Her company was seeking to acquire another smaller firm. And Rebecca saw instantly that this was not going to turn out. Well, it was going to be a debacle for their operations. It was going to completely back them up. And so, Rebecca went to the CEO and the COO and said “I want to give you a warning that I see this coming” and they blasted right past her and went through with the acquisition anyway. And exactly as she predicted, it was a disaster and actually led to the firing of the COO because it turned out so poorly. And the CEO came back to Rebecca and said “You know, if I had only listened to you, I would have saved my reputation” because it was a black mark on the company in the industry. And he specifically said to her “I wish I had more people like you who were so sensitive and observant of what was happening and perceptive and I should have listened to you.” And so, if that doesn’t underscore the business cost of not recognizing and valuing and listening to sensitive strivers, I don’t know what does.

Eddie Turner:

That underscores it quite nicely. Thank you for that story that lets it really stick with us a lot better than just the anecdote alone. Now, as I think about something else that you talk about in the book, we are often told to do what makes us happy. You argue we should do what we’re suited for. What’s the difference?

Melody Wilding:

In many ways, I think, one leads to the other. I think that doing what you’re suited for leads to greater happiness because what the research shows is that when we have a role that matches our personality, we experience greater job satisfaction, we are more effective, productive. We earn more because of all of that. And so, I think one leads to the other.

Eddie Turner:

Okay. And when I think about where we are in the stream of time, what we’ve gone through as a country, as a global community with the pandemic, how can sensitive strivers and those who are developing the ability to trust themselves as leaders, how can they improve in this specific area post pandemic?

Melody Wilding:

In terms of focusing on matching your professional life better with your personality, I think this is a great time to be reassessing what your needs are because we really have an opportunity. We’re in transition and transition always presents opportunity for change, right? So, it’s a great opportunity to reassess now that we’re coming out of the pandemic, what over the past year actually did work for you and what didn’t. So, for example, many of my clients actually found the switch to working from home to be very advantageous for them because as sensitive strivers, about 70% of sensitive people are also introverted, meaning they need time, they need downtime, they need concentrated time and sensitive strivers in general need more space to process. And so, being at home gave many people much more control over their surroundings to really dictate their day and where and how they were working. So, in the book, I actually have a chapter on finding the right fit. And in there, I take readers through different criteria to assess whether your job is the right fit for you now, the first one being that idea of physical needs, your workspace, what does it look like, how much stimulation is there, how quickly are things moving. The next would be relational needs – what types of relationships do you need to have in the workplace to feel like you are fulfilled and you are giving your best. Then we get on to organizational needs which is what type of company motivates you, their mission, their impact, the type of leaders that they have. Then we move on to health and lifestyle needs which touches on flexibility, how often do you need to take breaks, when would you start work, when would you end work. And then finally at the tippy top of the pyramid, we have learning and performance needs and this is looking at in your role, what are your special gifts and talents, what further competencies do you want to develop and how can you get better at applying those in your current role.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And then when you think about the relationships, friendships, professional or otherwise, it makes me think about something I heard someone say recently and I can’t remember who said it or what context, so I can’t make proper attribution, but they said “Decide which relationships are post-pandemic worthy.”

Melody Wilding:

That’s a great way to put it. I love that idea.

Eddie Turner:

Yeah. Now, along the lines of what you said there, what about if I’ve had setbacks during the pandemic? What can I do to get my confidence back and trust in myself as a leader and be a sensitive striver?

Melody Wilding:

Sure. And you know what was interesting is the pandemic hit just as I was finishing this manuscript and actually pretty much around the time when I was working on the chapter in the book on bouncing back from setbacks. So, it was this really unique timing where I actually went back through the book several times and looked at it for how can we reframe and offer strategies that are going to work in this new world. And so, this idea of coming back from setbacks, in the book I offer a three-step process that really builds on a lot of the other learnings from the book. So, first is to rest. I think many times as sensitive strivers we want to fix. We want to keep doing. We think we can act and think our way through problems. And many times, we need to just separate ourselves from the problems. We need to take a break and ground ourselves, reset our nervous system, manage and pay attention to our thinking because our thinking is going to guide our actions. So, that’s the first step is rest, take a step back. Next would be reflect. And I think we’re seeing a lot of people do that now where they are thinking about, as we re-emerge from the pandemic, reflecting on “What are the lessons that I’ve learned? How have I grown? How do I want to be different in this new phase?” So, specifically, in the book, I touch a lot on the idea of giving yourself permission, where do you need to give yourself more permission to succeed, to fail, for example, where do you need to be listening and consulting your intuition, how can you return back to your core values and how are those guiding your life and the decisions you’re making about your work going forward. And then, finally, we have Recalibrate. This is where you take action. So, now that you have rested, you have reflected, now with different insights, you can take different steps forward. So, recommitting to reassessing our goals, adjusting them as needed. I think the pandemic has really taken people off autopilot and made people realize that “Maybe I don’t want to be doing as much as I have been. Maybe I want to be doing less but better” and rebuilding our boundaries. You were talking about which people in our life are post-pandemic worthy and I have seen people become so much more … they respect their own time much more and are much more willing to say “No, I’m sorry. I can’t commit to that right now.” And I think people have also become much more understanding of that. So, really recommitting to reassessing your boundaries. The last point under Recalibrate would be thinking about changing the game, thinking about if you want to make a bigger switch, how can you adjust, how can you take those criteria that I mentioned in terms of finding work that’s a better fit and start to make some incremental changes to make your work life be a better fit for who you are and your needs as a sensitive striver.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And so, if anyone is wondering, in the book, that is under the section Sustained Self-Growth: Bounce Back from Setbacks. What a fascinating chapter. What is the main message you would like to make sure our listeners leave our conversation with today, Melody?

Melody Wilding:

That sensitivity when managed correctly can be your greatest strength and asset.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you. And I’d love to know on the Keep Leading!® Podcast, what’s the best piece of advice or quote that you use that helps you, Melody, to keep leading.

Melody Wilding:

Never put off once-in-a-lifetime moments for work that can be done tomorrow.

Eddie Turner:

I love that. Thank you. Where can my listeners learn more about you?

Melody Wilding:

You can find me at MelodyWilding.com. There you can learn more about the book. You can also find the book wherever books are sold.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. And what I will do is make sure there are links to your social media profiles to your book, your main website of course, in the show notes to make it easy for people to connect with you, follow you, read your book and stay connected. You’re so fascinating and I am so happy that you have come on the Keep Leading!® Podcast to share your knowledge with our listeners.

Melody Wilding:

It was so much fun. Thank you for having me.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, Melody.And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Thank you for listening to C Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 112 | Trust Yourself as a Leader | Melody Wilding appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Keep Leading!® Podcast 111 | Leading Behind the Lens | John DeMato

admin — Mon, 14 Jun 2021 08:28:51 +0000

John DeMato
Photographer & Visual Story Expert
Leading Behind the Lens

Episode Summary
When I signed a copy of my book for John DeMato, I said: “You make moments matter with your amazing work!” I later realized John displays a form of leadership I had not considered before—leadership behind his camera lens. I sat down with John to discuss why this often-overlooked form of leadership matters.

Check out the “60-Second Preview” of this episode!

Bio
John DeMato is a branded lifestyle portrait + virtual photographer who collaborates with expert-based business owners to create an emotional connection with their audiences through persuasive visual storytelling.

More than just a photographer, John sets his clients up for success beyond the portrait session by strategizing with them on how to best leverage their image content for every touchpoint across their online presence – website, social media, presentations, digital ads, blogs, etc.

John spent more than 20 years working as a television producer for Maury, Yahoo, reality shows, and private corporate clients. John is a C-Suite Network Advisor and a Photography Sponsor for the NYC Chapter of the National Speakers Association. He also educates photographers on creating a memorable online presence as a guest contributor for several photography websites.

Website
https://www.johndemato.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johndemato/

Twitter
https://twitter.com/dematophoto

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/john.a.demato/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/dematophoto/

Leadership Quote
The best way to lead and influence others to get past what’s holding them back? Show, don’t tell.

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Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Transcript

The key to sustainable leadership lies in the ability to thrive during uncertainty, ambiguity, and change. Grand Heron International brings you the Coaching Assistance Program, giving your employees on-demand coaching to manage through a challenging situation and arrive at a solution. Visit GrandHeronInternational.Ca/Podcast to learn more.

This podcast is part of the C Suite Radio Network, turning the volume up on business.

Eddie Turner:

Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast, the podcast dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, facilitation, and professional speaking.One of the principles of the Keep Leading!® Podcast is that almost everyone has the capacity to lead. To that end, I explore different facets of leadership on this show. Today, I will share a different type of leadership. I’m calling this Leading Behind the Lens. I’m going to interview John DeMato. After John did work for me, I wrote a note in the book I signed for him that said “You make moments matter.” How does John make moments matter? John is a branded lifestyle portrait and virtual photographer who collaborates with expert-based business owners to create an emotional connection with their audiences through persuasive visual storytelling.

Here to tell us more is John DeMato. John, welcome to the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

John DeMato:

Well, thank you, Eddie. And after that wonderful intro, I am even happier to be here. Thanks for having me.

Eddie Turner:

Well, John, tell me a little bit more about yourself.

John DeMato:

Sure. So, as you mentioned, I work with experts, speakers, trainers, authors, consultants, different types of business owners, some in the executive suite and what we try to do is capture image content that visually punctuates the sentiment of every single story they want to tell, whether it’s a story of vulnerability all the way up to and including moments of joy and success and happiness and everything in between.

Eddie Turner:

Now, that’s what you do but what about you. Tell me about John.

John DeMato:

Me? I’m just some crazy kid from Astoria, Queens, that one day decided that working for someone else wasn’t my cup of tea anymore. So, I decided to jump out the window, quit my job and start a business while never having the thought of starting a business prior to that point.

Eddie Turner:

And here you are.

John DeMato:

Here I am.

Eddie Turner:

Now, you refer to it as branded lifestyle photography. What is that?

John DeMato:

Branded lifestyle portrait photography is the image content that acts as a fly on the wall. It’s candid photography that captures my clients’ day-to-day activities so that it gives their audience the opportunity to get a sense of what working with them looks like, what brainstorming ideas looks like for my clients, to give their audience the opportunity to get an entry point into their life, to give them an opportunity to engage their content. We want to create relationships as business owners, especially as expert business owners. And the way to do that is by demystifying your processes for those that you serve. And visually, you can do that by capturing what your world looks like and then offer that up to your audience to give them that understanding.

Eddie Turner:

How is this different from regular photography?

John DeMato:

Well, the difference between a branded lifestyle portrait and say a headshot is that the onus in the headshot is to look directly into the camera. Now, those images are also included in a branded lifestyle portrait session but the stress is on capturing images that allow people a sense to feel welcomed into the frame. So, instead of just looking into the camera which is more of a “look at me” kind of photo – “Hey, everybody, look at me” – It’s more of a “Hey, come with me on my journey as I show you how I can help transform your life” and whatever the area of expertise for that particular person is.

Eddie Turner:

So, more than just a normal head shot. I love your phrase. You invite the viewer into the frame and you’re giving people a glimpse into the person’s daily life, their activities and revealing a different side of them.

John DeMato:

Yes. In addition to that, Eddie, the added layer, the vanilla frosting, if you will, is also illustrating that expert’s personality, areas of their personality through their facial expression and their body language and the way that they’re engaging whatever lifestyle activity that they are participating in while that photo was being taken. So, it not only shows the audience what they do, how they do it and why they do it but it also gives them a sense of who that person is simply based on the emotional sentiment created by that person’s expression and body language. So, it all kind of works together to really inform their audience of what this person’s all about.

Eddie Turner:

If I’m a leader, why does that matter to me?

John DeMato:

As a leader, it’s important to illustrate your expertise. It’s important to illustrate your level of confidence in your own ability to help solve people’s problems in the way in which you solve them. And when you reinforce your powerful words that you share through your content and your website and the way you express yourself on a podcast such as this, the way that you visually punctuate all of those sentiments that you want to impart upon that audience and inspire them to want to learn more about you, to captivate their attention is through the way in which you express those aspects in your image content, through your expression, through your posture as well as, again, the activities in which you’re participating in the photo.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, John. It’s interesting because we have always heard the phrase “A picture is worth a thousand words.” And that might even be more true today as we live in the world of Instagram or Insta as the young people would say, you don’t say the whole word anymore, right?

John DeMato:

Yeah. No, no, that’s too hard. It’s too difficult to say the extra four letters. Yes, I know.

Eddie Turner:

I just show my age when I say the whole word but it puts an emphasis on what you do for leaders in that of capturing the essence of them in a way that perhaps people are not used to seeing. And I normally say the website at the end of the session but if you are listening to John and I talk right now, I invite you to go to JohnDeMato.com as we’re speaking. Certainly, we’re going to drop the links to the episode so that you can press that on your devices and go directly to it and see exactly what he’s talking about and how John brings people to life.And John, normally I don’t ask people for a client list but in your case, when we’re talking about this, give people just a glimpse of some of the big names you’ve worked with that you’ve helped bring to life.

John DeMato:

Well, I photographed Seth Godin once at an event. I’ve worked with a lot of people in the National Speakers Association, people such as former past president. I photographed Ron Carr speaking. I photographed people like Sylvie de Giusto and Phil Jones and people like that. I’ve also worked with C-Suite folks such as Jeff Hayzlett and dozens and dozens of other experts along the line within both of those communities. And it’s pretty inspiring working with folks that are very successful and very driven and passionate and very generous with their time with other emerging experts coming up the pipeline. So, I’m very lucky. Very grateful.

Eddie Turner:

So, from the biggest names in marketing to the biggest names in the National Speakers Association, the most recognized brand of top speakers in the world belongs to that association, the C-Suite Network where the executives are and where people who serve executives are, you have worked with all of them. In fact, John DeMato has gone from being someone we did not know to being the only person you call when you have an event as a speaker, when you have an event as a facilitator, trainer, coach. He’s the person who we all are using.

John DeMato:

Yeah, it’s pretty cool. Definitely. I have to say, Eddie, it’s been quite a journey. I remember when I first started working as a photography sponsor or volunteering as a photography sponsor for the New York City chapter of the National Speakers Association and what I now know is that I essentially was working with an all-star team of people. And it’s never lost on me how fortunate I am to be in that particular chapter.

Eddie Turner:

Yes, the New York City chapter of National Speakers Association, I’m partial. That’s where you and I met. That’s one of the chapters I belong to. It is the rockstar chapter. I didn’t know that when I joined. I joined because I was on a contract in New York and I couldn’t be a part of my what was at the time my home chapter. And I immediately fell in love with them. They adopted me and took me in. And you and I met as a result. So, I’m even more grateful that I joined that chapter.

John DeMato:

That’s right. And I got a book out of the deal. So, I was pretty psyched about that.

Eddie Turner:

And so, John, when I talk about leading behind the lens, you’re taking the lead and helping leaders present their best self as a leader but you’re leading when you’re working with them and it’s an aspect of leadership that people may not easily recognize because you’re influencing them. Can you talk about that?

John DeMato:

Absolutely. It’s a dance. Any time that I work with someone in front of the camera, there is a dance of establishing rapport and having a conversation going on and essentially getting the person comfortable enough because for many folks, regardless of what their status is, how successful they are, people have certain things that kind of bother them about the way they look. So, one of the things that I work on is put on the psychology hat and work them that way. Another way is having conversations with them to get them comfortable because the effort is made to get someone in a place where their guard is dropped, they are open and receptive to direction, which I give heavy, heavy, heavy amounts of direction in any session that I shoot and get them in a place where they’re revealing authentic honest expressions of aspects of their personality. And there is a lot of work that goes into that. And then on top of that, there is the marketing aspect. I don’t just show up with a camera and start snapping away the shutter button. There is a heavy amount of strategy that goes on beforehand because I need to know what are these photos for, who are your people, what are you all about, what are the nuances and wrinkles in your processes that we can illustrate visually in these photos so that they are the most honest representation of how you live your life and the work that you do for others in service. So, there’s a lot involved before and during the session.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And so, you take these people who are used to being in command, being in charge and they really submit themselves to you and the final product is flawless. So, you are exemplifying leading through influence as you lead behind the lens.

John DeMato:

And, Eddie, you know that is true but also one of the things that I’ve noticed is these particular experts, especially the higher up the food chain you go and the level of success that they have, the more open that they are to my direction and the more not only open but encourage it because they don’t want to have to think about how these images are created, there’s a level of trust and that only comes over time through these conversations, through the strategy and through the photos that we’re creating throughout the session. We spot check all these photos throughout because that is what helps build that trust so that they are able to let me do my thing and get what we need for them.

Eddie Turner:

Well done, John. And is there a lesson in this for other photographers who may not see themselves as leaders?

John DeMato:

Yeah. One of the biggest lessons that I had to learn was number one, put the blinders on and stop worrying about what every other photographer is doing because that prevents you from tapping within yourself to find what makes your images uniquely yours and that will have a direct result on the deliverables that you create for your audience. The more that you are in tune with who you are and your own confidence in your work behind the camera, that will naturally elevate the quality of your work to a place that it would not normally go if you just continue to mimic what other photographers are doing. And the other big thing in terms of leadership is to truly understand the problems that you’re solving with the images that you capture. If you do not know what these photos are serving your clients, then it’s basically chasing vanity-driven images and creating pretty photos, absolutely, but if they have no soul, if they have no essence, if they have no purpose, then these photos are best served for a magazine spread and not for your client’s online presence.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, John.We’re talking to John DeMato. John leads behind the lens as a branded lifestyle portrait photographer. We’ll have more with John right after this.

This is Karen Jacobsen, the GPS Girl, and you have reached your destination because you’re listening to the Keep Leading!® Podcast with Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:

We’re back. I’m talking to John DeMato and we’re talking about how he leads behind the lens as a branded lifestyle portrait photographer.John, before the break we talked about what branded lifestyle photography is and why it matters to leaders and quite frankly, why it’s a form of leadership that many people may not easily recognize. I want to switch gears here just a little bit and talk about something else that you are doing that might matter to many of the people listening to our conversation. Everybody doesn’t have to be a professional photographer. You’ve launched a program where you’re teaching people how to use that iPhone that they have in their hands better to be an everyday photographer. Can you talk about that?

John DeMato:

Sure. It is called Shoot It Yourself: Develop a Portrait Photographer’s Eye with Your Phone. And I launched it earlier this year due largely because of the pandemic because of a lot of people sheltering in place and even as things start to lift, people’s reluctance to have strangers in their house taking photos of them. So, what I wanted to do is create an opportunity for experts and people who really just want to have high-quality self-portraits so that they can use them to promote their business, their services and their brands online but still have a level of artistry to their photos. So, what I did was create a nine-module course that breaks down the bare bone basics of how to take a well-composed image. And I’ve fortunately gotten a lot of positive reception from it. The feedback has been wonderful. There’s been a lot of people that are “Wow! I didn’t even know this was on my phone. I had no idea all I had to do was hit a button.” And I’m like “I know, right?”

Eddie Turner:

Right.

John DeMato:

And essentially, what this is about is geared towards people with smartphones but what they’re really learning is how to take a well-composed photo period, meaning you can take a photo with your phone or a professional camera and you’ll still have the same understanding of how to leverage lighting and composition and locations and all of those very important critical elements to creating a well-composed frame and snap away and feel confident and feel good about the images that you’re sharing.

Eddie Turner:

Yes. And I believe that has tremendous value and I was so excited to see you launch that. I am not you by any stretch of imagination but I still carry a camera when I go places and it never fails that when I want to be in the photo and I hand it to somebody, people look at me like I have two heads and they say “What’s that? What button do I press?” People aren’t used to using regular cameras anymore but everyone has the camera that’s always with them and that’s their phone. You don’t have to give the instructions which button to press. Everybody knows how to take a photo with the mobile device. And so, you’re adding value by helping people get the most out of something that they already have but are not fully maximizing, thereby, here again I say, you are leading behind the lens.

John DeMato:

Well, it’s all about empowering people to capture, as you mentioned before, moments that matter when you wrote that in the book. It is empowering people to capture their moments that matter when it’s happening because it’s impossible to have a professional 24×7 but you have that phone with you 24×7. So, now you have the creative license and the technology and the knowledge to be able to leverage that moment in a really, really wonderful high-quality self-portrait.

Eddie Turner:

Indeed. And I think it becomes even more important now because I’ve always believed in capturing the moment and that’s why I wrote that in the book for you that people sometimes chide me a little bit when they see me come because they know I’m going to take a photo but during the pandemic, it’s really shown the value of those memories because Facebook does a nice job reminding us of all these events we’ve attended but we get a chance to look back and relive those precious memories with our friends or our loved ones. And so, I think more and more people just can’t wait for those opportunities to open up again and they’re going to be taking advantage of the ability to preserve those going forward if they took them for granted before.

John DeMato:

Oh, absolutely. I think there is going to be a major influx of house parties and “Hey, we’re all out and about” and everybody’s taking photos. I definitely foresee that happening once we are more opened up, completely opened up as a country and I really look forward to seeing all those photos.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. And nine modules. That’s impressive. How long is it in total from start to finish, if I want to take this?

John DeMato:

It is 48 minutes.

Eddie Turner:

Oh, okay. So, we can finish it in one hour. You’ve broken it down into nine digestible chunks.

John DeMato:

Yes. Yeah, short and sweet is the way to go. Once upon a time, when I worked in the television industry, that was the phrase – “Keep it short and sweet. Keep it short and sweet” – because attention spans can go. And especially when you’re talking about technical based things, you want to keep these chunks manageable for people so it doesn’t feel like they’re drinking from a fire hose every five seconds. You want to keep it so that it is manageable and actionable immediately.

Eddie Turner:

Yes. And speaking of your television career, do you mind mentioning a little bit about some of the work you did on TV?

John DeMato:

Sure. For nine years, once I got out of grad school, I started working for a talk show The Maury Povich Show and I worked there as a field producer.

Eddie Turner:

You are not the father.

John DeMato:

I know, I know. And it’s okay because you said my name so wonderfully in the intro. You know what, it’s fine but in terms of working there, it was a boot camp in a lot of the stuff that I do now in the sense of understanding how to tell a story and wide shots, medium shots and close-ups and how to capture emotion, understanding the value of getting real close to a subject and truly showing their essence. Despite the fact that there was a five-alarm fire every day on that show, I’m very grateful for the lessons that I learned and the ability to apply all of that experience to what I do now with my experts.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. John, what’s the main message you would like to leave our listeners with today?

John DeMato:

I believe that one of the most important aspects of the way that you present yourself is through your photos because photos aren’t meant to inspire people to immediately sign on the dotted line but what they do inspire your audience to do is to pick up the pen. And that’s the goal of your image content. When you have a perspective of understanding that it’s meant to create an opportunity to start a conversation, that’s when you really start to truly benefit from the power of visual storytelling. And that’s something that I think everyone who is an expert, who is a leader, who is someone that wants to build a community of those that they serve, they need to keep that in mind.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. Well, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed talking with you, John, and I appreciate all the great work you’ve done for me over the years. In fact, I haven’t been able to take advantage as much of your in-person services as I have your virtual services. And so, go to John’s website. He’s doing all kinds of work for people. And John, tell us your website again and tell us anyplace else that you want people to know how to contact you.

John DeMato:

Sure. It’s JohnDeMato.com. And fortunately, on every single page of my website there is an opportunity to follow me on my social platforms at the bottom of every page. And if someone were more interested in learning more about persuasive visual storytelling and branded lifestyle portraiture virtual photography and all the other stuff that I offer to my clients, I would suggest you sign up for my blog. I put out 13 blogs a month and you can do that through my website as well.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. John, thank you for showing us how to lead behind the lens and for being a guest on the Keep Leading!® Podcast.

John DeMato:

Always a pleasure talking with you, Eddie. Thank you very much.

Eddie Turner:

That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So, whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

Thank you for listening to C Suite Radio, turning the volume up on business.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 111 | Leading Behind the Lens | John DeMato appeared first on Eddie Turner.