First Timer Syndrome

Episode Summary
In this conversation, Dr. AZ Habtewold discusses First Timer Syndrome, highlighting its effects on individuals’ stress levels and overall performance. He emphasizes how stress can undermine leadership abilities, health, relationships, and team productivity.

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio
As a seasoned Author, Coach, Consultant, Facilitator, and Speaker at The A to Z Institute—a comprehensive leadership development platform based in Tampa, Florida—I bring 20+ years of international experience that empowers organizations and leaders to achieve transformative growth.

My work bridges theory and practice by combining dynamic adult learning methodologies with actionable strategies tailored for government agencies, corporations, and community organizations.

Website
https://theatozinstitute.com/

Other Website
https://drazhabtewold.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drazhabtewold/

Twitter
https://x.com/DrAZHabtewold

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/azhabtewold

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/drazhabtewold/

Leadership Quote
“Before you are a leader, success is all about growing yourself. When you become a leader, success is all about growing others.” — Jack Welch

Dr. AZ Habtewold’s Book

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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast

The Keep Leading!® podcast is designed for individuals passionate about leadership. It focuses on leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, as he engages with accomplished leaders and influential figures from around the world about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share their leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast. The Keep Leading Podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speaking.

I am broadcasting today on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. Feel free to share this recording with your community so that they can listen to the excellent advice that my guest today has to say. If you’re not following my guest, please do so now. Look him up on LinkedIn and all of his social channels and get access to his outstanding content.

I want you to stay inspired, stay motivated so you can keep leading. And to that end, today I’m going to cover a subject that I hear very often in my coaching sessions with leaders at all levels. Today we’re going to talk about first timer syndrome. Are you feeling like a fraud in your first leadership role? If so, you are now.

And because so many people have told me they feel that way, I wanted to invite an expert on this subject. He wrote the book. And so Dr. A.Z. Habedwald is here today to talk about how you and I can remove self-doubt and overcome pitfalls that we have in our first-time roles, our first-time experiences, no matter what type of an organization it may be. And if we can remove those doubts,

He guarantees that we will have the antidote to transition to a smooth transition, lead with confidence and thrive beyond the challenges that first time leadership brings. So here with me today is Dr. AZ Hadebold. Dr. AZ, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Thank you very much, Eddie. I’m glad to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. I invited you to my podcast. You gave us so many insights about how to lead in the area of AI. And I’m glad to be back here and have this wonderful conversation about first-timer syndrome so that we could be able to give something to people who are leading for the first time in a row.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, that is true. In fact, I’ve known you for probably 10 years and I quite honestly don’t remember how we first met. Maybe it was an ATD conference or something. But you invited me on your TV show at the time. And at the time you had a TV show that had global distribution, but really major concentration and Africa. I forget how many millions of views that show got. So that was really pretty impressive when I saw that.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yep.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yes.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yep.

Eddie Turner:
And I think I’ve done a couple other things with you over the years. And you’re right. I think it was maybe six months ago I was on your podcast. So we go way back.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yeah, yeah. It was a satellite. Yes, yes. I think we met at ATD and also I believe NSA DC, you came to facilities to speak something. And the TV show that we did was, it was a satellite TV where not only people in the diaspora but also back in Ethiopia and Africa, people watched it.

Eddie Turner:
Okay and I say yeah that would have made sense yes.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
And people loved watching you sharing the insights, the strategies that you had. And I’m glad that we kept on communicating and inviting one another to our platforms to serve our audience.

Eddie Turner:
Well, thank you, thank you. Well, tell us Dr. Azee, what is first timer syndrome?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
I want you to go back your first time home buying or car or first time date. Always when it’s first, it’s always stressful. Go back again to buy a car for the second time or home or a date for the second time. Now you better. First timer is always challenging to anyone. Even if, for example, you

where a supervisor, when you become a middle manager, you are a first-time middle leader. Even if you were a middle manager, when you go to executive role, you are still a first-timer. A first-timer syndrome is the symptoms that you demonstrate when you are making a transition from one position to a new leadership position, and it has its own symptom. But this is normal.

what’s very challenging for a lot of people is they don’t know this syndrome exists. That’s the difficulty. Some of the symptoms, they are similar to any other first-timer syndrome, whether when you buy a first-time car, first-time home, whatever first time. When it comes to leadership, the first thing you have is uncertainty. You don’t know what you’re going to deal with because you have never been there.

Eddie Turner:
Well, what are the symptoms that we should be looking for?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
And the second syndrome that you see is you doubt yourself. You were great. Let’s say you were an A player in the workplace and you succeeded. And there are very strong reasons why you succeeded. One, you made your goals because when you are an employee, you have a goal just for yourself. You made your goals and you had quota or whatever outcomes are expected from you. You made them.

But the moment you come to a new position from a player to first time team leader or project manager or supervisor, now you’re going to doubt yourself. Can I do it? You perform it there, but it’s a different world. Now you are leading other people. Now you make other people accountable and so on. That’s self doubt. Of course, stress, anxiety. Overall, what you see is

When I go out to coach and train first timers, the first thing they tell me is, was this program? Three months ago, two months ago, a year ago. Because when I showed them how to overcome the syndrome, I should have got that long time ago. They have been suffering. Part of the reason why people have these syndromes is because they are just thrown into deep water, hoping that they’re going to swim.

But many people struggle and some of them sink.

Eddie Turner:
So as a result, what are you seeing amongst the people as you did this research in the first 90 days of the role when they’re manifesting these symptoms and just being thrown in? What are you seeing as the results?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
The results are very, very bad. The statistics actually shows that first timers for the first 18 months, most of them they fail up to 60%. Initially, part of the consequences of first timer syndrome is people are gonna be stressed out and that reflects on their performance.

and the ability to lead others. You can imagine when you are uncertain, doubtful, when you are stressed out, anxious and frustrated, you’re not at your best. And because of that, you lose your health, you’re stressed out, it affects your family, it affects your relationship, it affects the productivity of the team and also the people around you because you are affected and your affection also reflects

on the well-being of your team and that also erodes their confidence on you. They’re not all in, they’re doubting you, decisions are not made quickly. All of this is going to affect the bottom line, not just the team, but the greater organization.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And in your book, you wrote about 11 antidotes to thrive in these situations. Can you share with us the two most important that someone might consider of the 11?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
I would say first of all, there are three areas. I would say these are three, I can put them into three areas. The first one is on yourself and the second one on your skill sets. And the last one is about growing yourself and growing your people. If I have to pick just two, yep.

Eddie Turner:
we can put those in two, right? So owning yourself and your skills and then the second would be

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yep.

On the people because at the end of the day, you know when you are just a start employee, if you work on yourself, if you discipline yourself, if you make yourself accountable, you succeed. But once you become a first time supervisor or team leader or project manager, your success is not measured based on your outputs. Your performance is based on the team’s performance and therefore.

If you want to be successful, overcome the first timer syndrome and over deliver and make the people who put you in that position. Wow, we made a right decision when we picked her or picked him. You have to work on yourself and also work on your people from your from your perspective. The most important thing that I would say there are all of them are important, but I think the ability to handle the emotional stress brings in and if you have.

high emotional intelligence. If you know how to overcome stress, if you understand how to channel your emotional stress and understand the emotions of others, you could be able to at least survive that period. The more you work on the other antidotes, you could be able to overcome the first-timer syndrome. From the perspective of the people around you,

You need to know how to grow people, how to coach, how to mentor people. Yes, you are promoted because you were a player. Right now, can you raise other players? This requires you to have the mentality of growing people because when you were an air player, you were just growing yourself. Now at this stage, if you grow, yeah.

Eddie Turner:
But wait a minute, Dr. AZ, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Nobody’s gonna do it as well as I can do it. If I want it done right, I gotta do it myself.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yes, that’s one of the challenges that first timers have because you were a player, you were promoted. Actually, let me go back. When you look at how organizations are recruiting first timers, they see them perform well, outperform their peers, and they think that, okay, if they could be able to outperform their teams and over deliver,

If we make them the leader of the team, they could be able to quadruple, even increase productivity exponentially. What they don’t understand is that the psyche that person has when they were employee is totally different when they become a leader. You have to have a different psyche. At this point, it’s not about you. It doesn’t matter how much great you are. You can’t come early. You can go late. You meet your goals.

You can over deliver, but at the end of the day, if you are unable to create people who could duplicate you, even outstrip you, outperform you, you’re not successful.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. Now, you have an impressive background, not only from your work experience, but your educational experience. Do you have a time in your career, in your journey, where you personally experienced first-timer syndrome?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
many, many times, even recently. One of the things that I value the most, one of my values is growth, and I want to grow on a daily basis. And the other aspect of growth for me is not to stay in one place forever. After a couple of years, I want to change. I have changed professions. I was a researcher and then a software engineer and then leadership training coach. And then I moved to

commercial real estate business brokerage. And recently I also entered into finance. As you can imagine, every time I move from one position into the other one, I’m a first timer. Yeah, I’m excellent when it comes to my former professional career or leadership position. But when I come to a new profession, a new career, a new position, I’m a first timer. And I have faced this so many times.

I can tell you the recent one when I decided to take license and become a business broker to help small business owners like myself to buy and sell and get capital and transform their startup to scale and grow. I was new. I didn’t know how to handle this because I was new. I had the license, but I didn’t have the knowledge, the experience, and I needed somebody to mentor me.

The feeling I had was like, my gosh, what was I doing? Why did I come here? I felt like I was droning. I felt like this was too much. The people around me, they have track records, they have experience, they have listings, and they have clients, but I was just starting. But I can go back and tell you so many times where I experienced, to connect this with the book.

I believe it was 2013, 14, 15, I used to travel around the country providing workshops on how to excel as a first time supervisor or manager. During that time, we had this one day workshop and people were signing up. I was working with a national training company. I don’t want to mention their names. People pay.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Organizations pay for their people. come one day. I saw how much people felt safe. People feel my gosh, we should have this for everybody in our organization. You have to provide this to my team. They were like, my gosh, I should have got this long time ago. And after a while I realized that. There is a gap. There is a gap on leadership transitions.

Eddie Turner:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
I start to study middle managers also because when you are a supervisor, you are supervising a team. But when you become a middle manager, you are supervising teams, projects, portfolios, and you may be leading a department. And then when you make a transition to an executive role, you’re not just in the middle. You are responsible for the overall vision, mission, culture.

have to go out, build coalitions and so on. And as you can see from one stage of leadership to the next one and to the next one, they’re totally different in terms of the mindset you need, the competencies you need, the character, the personality you need. And then I decided, you know what? I have to invest my time, resource and energy to bridge this gap, the gap of leadership transition. That’s how I wrote the book, Partly Personal Experience, Me Suffering.

Eddie Turner:
All right.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
as a first timer and then I saw other people suffering. I was not the only one and I said you know what this thing must be addressed. I wrote the book. I have another book coming for first time middle

Eddie Turner:
So you did something as a person who’s an outsider and you wrote a book to address this that people could learn from. But if I’m an insider, if I’m in an organization and I’m watching people struggle with this first-timer syndrome, what should I do?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Yes.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Many things you could do, first of all, onboarding. When you look at organizations, they have a generic onboarding, which they use for employees. You are just being hired as an employee. They have ABCD kind of onboarding. They use the same kind of onboarding for first timers. And therefore, if you are, for example, a middle manager, you have…

first-timer supervisors, project managers, team leaders, make sure that they have a tailored, customized onboarding targeting these first-time leaders. Another thing you could do is mentoring. In most cases, these leaders who are promoting first-timers, they were there. Somehow they survived. And they think, you know what? I’ll throw them into the deep water.

They will swim. I know they could do it. I have seen them performing outperforming. Rather than doing that, why don’t you be a mentor or find a mentor for them who transitioned successfully so that you could be able to cut some learning curves and you could be able to save them a lot of pain, stress, frustration, anxiety. They could also perform well because you could give them some tips, frameworks.

Steps and so on. The third thing, the third thing I would say, find resources. For example, in my case, when I wrote the book, my thinking was some people may not be able to pay for one day workshop. They may not want to travel or they can’t travel and attend those workshops. Why not just write a book? They can buy the book, $9. They can read it in a week. Now they are more than ready. Or hire a coach like you. You wrote a book on emerging leadership.

they hire you within four, five, six weeks, they could be able to save six years of pain or six months of pain. And therefore they can do at least these three things. Give them a tailored onboarding, give them a mentor, maybe create for them a 30 day or 90 days plan on helping them make a smooth transition and excel at that first time role from the get go. And of course they can hire coaches and.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
trainers, people like you and I.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. Well, thank you for sharing that. Now, you’re not just a leadership expert. You, as you alluded to earlier, are also a commercial real estate professional. You’ve got your own business brokerage now. And a lot of people would wonder, as you talked about earlier, you’ve gone from these different areas. What advice do you have for other entrepreneurs and founders or wannabe entrepreneurs and founders

who are leading for the first time in their own ventures.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
This is very important and I’m glad you brought this and we need to talk about this. First of all, I want to disclaim when it comes to choosing path is personal. There are two school of thoughts. One advises you to become generic like me and another school of thought says you have to be a specialist. I’m sure some people prefer to specialize, but I decided earlier.

I had some influences. There is a book called Range. also, know, Alan West is part of our profession. He’s one of the top consultants. He’s known as the million dollar consultant or something. He’s very, very big in our industry, and he prefers us to be generalists. And because of that, I chose to be a generalist. I just don’t want to pick a lane.

but I want to diversify. That’s safe after disclaiming that because I’m not saying my way is the best way. People could say, you know what, I don’t want to be like Izzy. If I’m a leadership expert, I want to stick with that. If I’m a business broker, I stick with that. In my case, that’s the generalist path I chose. The second thing I would say is when I study the world, especially now, if you just pick one profession,

you may become very liable, become very narrow. Think about, let’s say I’m a lawyer in a specific sector, and let’s say AI took that specific sector in the low field, and then I will be out of work, out of job, out of.

anything because I have to start from scratch. It may take me another 10 years, five years to find another profession. In my case, what I would advise entrepreneurs is unless you are sure that you have a product or service which is highly specialized and no one is producing those products and services, you should have at least multiple.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
products and services and different layers of offerings. That way, some people may find one of your product services affordable, convenient, and preferable for them. Others would do. But I don’t advise people to just offer one product and one service and specialize, unless they are sure there is no competition. The last thing I want to say is…

Eddie Turner:
Excellent.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
In terms of whether you are a professional or entrepreneur or leader, what I learned, this is my personal experience, it may not work for other people. What I learned is that when I go out to coach, people feel more comfortable when I answer their questions in other fields. Yes, I’m not a special, for example, let me give you a good example. Last time I met someone and this person, they approached me to coach them and they wanted me to help them speak in front of a camera.

and we had a program. In our discussion, I learned that they are preparing themselves because they want to pitch.

people who are investors and they are trying to raise capital. In that conversation, I immediately expressed to them that I know the people you’re trying to pitch. These are savvy investors. They don’t easily open their pocket and invest on you unless you know how to immerse them, create sense of urgency, and make them to open their wallet.

and invest with you in five, 10 minutes. I mentioned about Shark Tank and so on, and I told them the behaviors and the psyche of investors. And then I talked about how they can package also that pitch because I’m a business broker. And therefore I told them, if you package this, if you get the valuation of your business and create shares and packages in such a way that it’s a no-brainer for these investors. As you can see, they came to me to coach and mentor them to speak in front of a camera.

to speak in front of investors. But I give them more than that. And when I was preparing them and coaching them, I know from where they are coming from, what kind of background, what they have to do. And I helped them to understand the psyche of the audience and how to turn them from just audience in their pitch into investors.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
I encourage people to diversify their knowledge and expertise, especially now as we are challenged by AI and the world is globalized and we have to over deliver and go the extra mile.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you, Dr. Azee. What’s the most important concept you want people to take away from our conversation today?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
From our conversation today, if they are professionals, I’m encouraging them to add certain expertise, competencies, if they are entrepreneurs, to diversify their product and services, if they are small business, to scale. Because everything that we’ve been talking about, how do you scale from just being a star employee to the first time supervisor or manager or to media leader or executive? These are the main takeaways.

Eddie Turner:
Good. And what is a quote that you use that helps you to keep leading?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
There are powerful quotations, but I would mention what I shared yesterday. Yesterday I shared a post on social media, which is about shoot for the moon. Shoot for the moon even if you miss, you’ll land among the stars. This is about me always raising the bar. One of the ways to raise your bar is to take leadership initiatives, to go somewhere and find problems and lead to solve them.

or find some challenges and go out help and lead people to go to the next level. And that quotation, among other quotations, inspires me to keep on leading.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. And where can people learn more about you?

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
They can find me on social media. I’m available on LinkedIn, Facebook, and also in Instagram. They can find me by seeing, my name is here on the screen, Dr. Az Haptwald. I’m also available on, I have my website. can go to draz.com or they can also email me az at.

www.thea2zinstitute.com. They can also go to the website www.thea2zinstitute.com.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. Well, thank you for having been a guest and helping us to understand first time syndrome.

Dr. AZ Habtewold:
Thank you, thank you very much, Eddie, for inviting me and giving me the opportunity to explain about first timer syndrome and how to overcome it.

Eddie Turner:
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. In fact, leadership is not a role we play, it’s who we are. It’s not a garment that we take off and put on. We must be a leader at our core.

and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 174 | Dr. AZ Habtewold | First Timer Syndrome appeared first on Eddie Turner.

The Resilience Plan

Episode Summary
In this episode of Keep Leading!® Live, host Eddie Turner engages with Dr. Marie-Ellen Peltier, a mental health expert, to discuss the critical importance of resilience in leadership. They explore the concept of resilience, its strategic implications, and how mental health exists on a continuum. Dr. Peltier shares insights from her book, ‘The Resilience Plan,’ emphasizing the need for leaders to recognize signs of mental health decline and to adopt practical strategies for building resilience. The conversation also highlights the role of organizational culture in supporting mental health and the importance of open communication within teams.

Takeaways

• Resilience is about strategic performance without burnout.
• Mental health exists on a continuum, not a dichotomy.
• Leaders must recognize signs of mental health decline.
• Understanding supply and demand in personal energy is vital.
• Anything is better than nothing when it comes to self-care.

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio
Throughout her career in management and psychology, Dr. Pelletier has spearheaded the dialogue on the crucial issues of leadership resilience and work performance. Drawing on her extensive background in corporate, insurance, and governance, she brings an international perspective and unique expertise on leadership. She has over 20 years of experience as a leadership psychologist, executive coach, and senior leader. Marie-Helene is a Member of the Global Clinical Practice Network of the World Health Organization, and past Director on the boards of the Canadian Psychological Association and the International Association of Applied Psychology. She has presented and authored and co-authored a number of industry and academic publications and has won numerous academic and industry awards. Dr. Pelletier is a highly rated instructor at the University of British Columbia, Sauder School of Business, Executive Education and a member of the Harvard Business Review Advisory Council, an opt-in research community of business professionals. Her award-winning book, The Resilience Plan: A Strategic Approach to Optimizing Your Work Performance and Mental Health, was named a “Top 5 Book to Read” by Inc. Magazine and Forbes.

Website
https://www.drmarie-helene.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmhpelletier/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/drmhpelletier/

Dr. Marie’s Book

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keep-leading/id1461490512

Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/show/0I7uAW3x4AWsLe6cnAzHp7?si=14549a44dec3495f

Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast

The Keep Leading!® podcast is designed for individuals passionate about leadership. It focuses on leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, as he engages with accomplished leaders and influential figures from around the world about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share their leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration

Are you inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network to help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtags #KeepLeading and #KeepLeadingPodcast to join the community of listeners dedicated to continuous growth and excellence in leadership.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello everyone, welcome to Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live and the Keep Leading Podcast are dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation,

and professional speaking. My goal is to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading. Today I’m streaming live on YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

Eddie Turner:
How many times this week have you pushed through exhaustion? Have you skipped lunch to power through meetings? Or told yourself, I’ll rest when this project is done?

If you’re not in your head right now, you’re not alone. Here’s the truth. With so much being demanded of leaders at all levels today, we must be more resilient than ever. But what does that really mean? What is resilience? Resilience isn’t about how much you can endure. It’s about how you can strategically perform at your best without burning out.

So to talk about this in greater detail, I’ve invited an authority on the show today. I’ve invited Dr. Marie-Ellen Peltier, and she goes by Dr. M.H. She’s joining us, and she’s an award-winning mental health expert who draws on her extensive knowledge in psychology and business to show how resilience is a key defense against burnout and how everyone

can build it in themselves. She’s the author of The Resilience Plan, a strategic approach to optimizing your work, performance, and mental health. And she’s worked with top leaders in organizations around the world. And I’m looking forward to her showing us some of the techniques that she has used in our conversation today. So if you’ve ever felt like you’re running on empty or you’re leading a team,

that’s showing signs of strain, this conversation is for you. So let’s get to talking about how we can not just survive, but thrive. Dr. Peltier, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
thank you. What a pleasure to be here.

Eddie Turner:
Dr. Tapaltier, tell my audience just a little bit about you.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes, yes. So my background is a combination of psychology and business. And I worked in as a work psychologist in private public sectors, and then moved into leadership roles from very junior managing call centers and middle management and then the C-suite. And now I’m a public speaker, doing keynotes, executive coach, and still working as a small practice psychologist.

Eddie Turner:
phenomenal and your book the resilience plan has really Caught fire and is resonated with readers around the world and in fact I didn’t say the I did say the full title the resilience plan a strategic approach to optimizing your work performance and mental health It’s pictured right there behind you. Tell us the reason you wrote this book

Dr. MH Pelletier:
I wrote this book because the model, the framework that I’m using in the book, I use in my work with professionals and leaders. And a number of times, and it just repeated itself over time, where people would tell me, MH, I am so glad I know this now and I wish I knew this sooner. And so I’ve heard this a few times and at some point I was like…

Okay, maybe if I write it down, someone’s going to learn this sooner and benefit from it. And so that was the incentive for it.

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. And the fact that it is able to be shared with people and people are able to read it is essential. In my work as an executive coach, there is not a week that goes by that I do not hear from a client how burnt out they are, how exhausted they are. And these are top performers. These are people who have succeeded beyond imagination.

And when you hear people at this level with all the stress that are on individuals and on corporations these days, it just it seems like it’s no longer just an anomaly. This seems like it’s more of a daily occurrence with everyday people. What’s been your experience with this? Obviously, you the book on it. What’s been your experience with this in your clientele?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes, very, very similar to what you’re describing. We’re hearing a lot about it. And I think it is a combination. Like, why are we hearing more about it now? Right. It is more something we talk about. That’s one part of it. We’ve got efforts from the world health organizations, from various countries, getting more involved in the overall conversation about mental health in general, and the state of burnout in professionals and leaders and other groups as well.

But there’s also the fact that we’re dealing with even more demands, both acute and chronic ones. One of which, for example, is just having AI more present in our personal and professional lives. So it’s not, sometimes it’s acute in part, but it’s also always there. And so that combination of all of these demands at some point puts us at risk unless we deliberately invest in our resilience.

Eddie Turner:
Interesting. Now, Dr. M.H., I covered this topic before and I did it with an expert psychologist who I absolutely love. But what attracted me to you and your work was, I love the book, love the title, but the idea that you’re not just a psychologist, you’re a mental health expert. So you’re combining two different worlds. Is there a reason that

We need to consider both.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
We do, yes. This and the other part that I combine also in this conversation is the whole business angle, the importance of being strategic with our resilience. And that’s an important additional angle. But to this first part you’re mentioning, yes.

The reality is we all have a physical, a financial and a mental health. Okay. And they all impact each other, of course. And one of the things that will have an impact on maintaining good mental health is investing proactively in our resilience, our ability to navigate all these demands and grow even stronger from them, to learn from them. The challenge, part of the challenge is that

If we reviewed all the things that we can do, should do to increase our resilience, you, me, everyone listening to us, we could make that list. We know the information and we trust the research and then we should, it is true. However, the challenge often comes in the implementation. And that’s where the business side, the strategic side is so important in, in changing how we think about our resilience, changing that conversation.

and most importantly, what we do.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. Yes, and the idea that, yes, many people are comfortable talking about psychology and human makeup, but when you talk about the mental health component, a subject that was kind of taboo in some senses for many years, right? But now people are understanding that mental health is not taboo. It’s something we need to talk about more. And in fact, some of us may deal with mental health issues that we didn’t even realize it. And so you cover something in your book that I thought was pretty interesting. You said,

Our mental health is on a continuum. And I just stopped when I read that sentence. I thought, wow, I never considered it like that. Tell us a little bit more about what you mean when you say.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes, yes. This one came up as, so I’ve been teaching at the University of British Columbia executive education for years, speaking with leaders of all levels. And, and I was mentioning mental health, which when we’re in the field, we think of it this way, but as leaders and having been a leader, we don’t. As a leader, we tend to think of mental health as a dichotomy. You’re either mentally healthy.

which most of us are, we assume, and or were not, which unfortunately a few of us are not, and that’s just the way it is. The problem with this is that number one, it’s not the reality of it, but one of the, also one of the problems means that we’re going to be, say, on the healthy side and gradually slide, but because we’re thinking of it as a dichotomy, we’re not going to even pay attention to that slide until we’re on the other side, fully burnt out over here.

And so when I talk about the continuum is to help us make sure we see that line that yes, there is a dotted line. At some point we move on having say a mental health disease or challenge or disorder, but it is a continuum. And the beauty with this other than that’s the reality of it is that it means we want to pay attention while we’re on the healthy side, when our mental health is moving here.

so that we can proactively take actions to bring it back to as healthy as possible. Much the same way we think of our physical and we should think about our financial health as well.

Eddie Turner:
Yes. And so when we think about our physical health and our financial health, we often need someone else to show us the way. And sometimes we may not even realize we have a physical malady until we show up for a doctor’s annual visit or something. And he says, hey, listen, this is wrong. need to check on this. We need to some work. Or with our financial advisor says, hey, listen, these are not quite the way they should be. What resources are there? How can we know as leaders when our mental health needs

to be regulated because we’re now sliding, as you say, into this area that we don’t realize.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes, yes. Well, certainly if we know anyone listening, we’re here today and we’re thinking, yeah, feels like it’s not right kind of thing. would say a good recommendation is to go check in with a professional to your point. So that way an external person who has the expertise, like a psychologist, for example, will help you figure this out and see exactly where you’re at. But for most of us, one of the things we can think about today is to

Think about when we were feeling our ideal self on a zero to 10 scale, solid 10 or nine and a half, know, pretty good. Whenever that was a few years ago and you compare it to where you’re at now, you’ll be able to see how that compares. And sometimes you’ll say, yeah. And you’ll look at things like I’m really my same usual self in terms of making decisions, in terms of my concentration, in my energy levels, in…

my ability to interact with others versus finding yourself having a hard time making decisions, needing to reread the same document a few times, or being impatient in your interactions with others. And these are just some of the signs, but you’ll see it. And often the shortest way to summarize this is are you your usual leader self, if you’re in a leadership role, for example. And people will know, your clients, my clients,

They know, if you ask that question, if we ask it to ourselves, we’ll know. And it’s important to be realistic about it as much as we really don’t like to acknowledge if we’re not where we used to be. Because certainly from a pure health perspective, the psychologist side of me is saying just for your health, it’s so important. But then sometimes I’ll get my clients who are hesitant to do it for their health, I’ll say, it for your brand.

You’ve spent decades building this brand as a professional, as a leader. And because of these hits on your health, you’re not your usual self. You’re not that guy. You’re not that woman. You’re not that person. And that’s impacting. And frankly, Eddie, they more often listen to this. I’ll get them on that argument more than on the health one, even though, yes, health would be something that is very important.

Eddie Turner:
That is so true. I love the way you said that because that will resonate deeper. And I think with a wider spectrum of people, you put it in those words that you want to do it for your brand, you’ve built a reputation and it took years. And if you’re no longer able to show up that way or things are happening to you and you’re trying to mask it, it’s not working.

So wow, I really appreciate you sharing that. And to that end, it leads to one of the other reasons I was attracted to your work is when I saw your book in the cover, you have something there that I’ve always used as the illustration for resilience. Tell us about the rubber band.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Well, the rubber band and the shape of that rubber band, it ties into a few things from my book. I mean, number one, it’s not rubber band can be broken, right? And so, no, it’s not something that, I just am resilient as a personality trait. It’s in me and cannot move, will not change over time. And it’s wonderful always. No, it has a fragility to it.

that can be nourished in the right conditions, but can suffer also in more challenging conditions. And so you want to think about it also as something that you’re stretching as opposed to breaking, for example, but also the shape of it that we very intentionally had on the cover is similar to that twisted DNA symbol. And in my book, my framework about being strategic about your resilience very much involves

Just like what we think of as the DNA, this visual that we see often, the two sides, like the sides of a ladder are both the professional and the personal side, because that’s another thing. Often leaders will come to you and to me thinking more about their work, the work side of things, which is of course where we’ll put most of the focus. And we need to also weave in the personal.

It’s not like emotions have lanes. You are still the same person. So these two are connected and need to be thought of in that sense that they’re both part of our full context. And then the rungs of the ladder I described in the book, but that was part of having that shape that also connects with the framework.

Eddie Turner:
Beautiful. That’s something essential for people to remember when it comes to resilience, what it looks like, how we define it, and how we actually execute on that. So to that point, you offer several solutions, pardon me, in your book about how we build this resilience. So for my listeners who are burnt out, who are exhausted, how can they benefit from what you’ve documented in your book?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes, how? And that’s very much what I’m all about. Very applied always using the research, but then let’s apply it to something that’s useful for you, me and everybody else. So, and I’ll tell you the way this emerged even, because again, I was speaking with professionals and leaders and they were saying, yeah, I made, know, how complicated can that be? This resilience thing, really. And…

And, but yet, yes, they were having trouble implementing these actions in their lives. And so I said, okay, if we were in a business and we have a new idea for a new offering, would we just, new product, new service, whatever, would we just say, we have this great idea, let’s implement it. Or would we say, we have this great idea, let’s look at who else is offering this? How much are they charging for it?

Who else might, what else might impact the demand for it in the short, moderate and long term? We would do all this. We would be strategic. So let’s do the same thing in our personal lives. We want more resilience. We can’t just say, okay, yeah, yeah, I’ll do it. We need to look at a few things and we’ll have, if you want, I can send you for the show notes, the worksheets that are associated with the book and they can be used independently or with the book. So they’re very…

self-explanatory, but that’s a way to guide anyone who wants to try this in a very easy, doable way. But basically what I do is guide people through reviewing their values, starting with this. Just like in a business, we would start with what’s most important, what are our values as a business. So let’s do the same here, because it’s going to need to be customized. Your plan will be different from mine because we have different values.

Suspecting we share some, but we also have some different ones. Then we want to look at our sources of what I call supply and demand. And there’s a very simple worksheet for that one too, but that is the one worksheet I’ve received the most comments about people saying I did all of them. And that one spreadsheet is what shifted my thinking entirely. Because what I’m

Eddie Turner:
What is it about that one that shifted them entirely?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
I know, I know, it’s, I think all of them are great myself, but this one I’ll tell you. It’s, so it’s a table, two columns, demands and supply. And I’m guiding people. I’m just saying, okay, list all the demands you have at work. They usually put two or three that are very stressful. They don’t like. Then I say list two or three at home. And so they list two or three, they’re like, yeah, it’s a bit heavy or whatever. Then I say, go back to the work list and add as many as you.

can, including positive ones. so I had this new big clients I’ve been wanting, but now it’s adding like a lot of load. Same thing at home. I have this person in my life that I enjoy helping or spending time with, and it represents a demand. We tend to underestimate the demands. That’s part of the optimistic bias of a good leader, but it also at times becomes

detrimental, it becomes a liability, the degree to which we underestimate the demands. And then on the supply side, same thing, what gives you energy at work, at home and all this. And then we realize we overestimate. Cause if I just say, how much supply do you think you have? you’re yes, that’s great. I have all this energy. I go to the gym so many times a week and all this. And then I’ll say, yeah, okay. So past two weeks, how many times?

well, the past two months I’ve been really busy, so no, but in general, I’m like, well, then it doesn’t go on the list, does it? And so that’s that realization that we’re really underestimating the demands, overestimating the supply and having it written down shifts that perspective to the reality of it.

Eddie Turner:
I love that concept, Dr. MH, of supply and demand and allocating that out just like you do a product or something in your business.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
It is. And the other piece too is that, you know, sometimes I’ll give that other analogy where I’ll say, you if we were in a business, would you just say, you know, I don’t need to see the financials, just let me know if we’re close to bankruptcy. We would never do this, but it’s almost like we do this for our resilience. yeah, I’m good, you know, that’s fine. Until I’m not. So no, let’s proactively look at the reality and the details of it. Actually doesn’t take that long.

Eddie Turner:
Hahaha!

Right.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
but it does shift the visibility you have and therefore puts you in such a much stronger position.

Eddie Turner:
Now, are you saying that those are in the back of the book? Thank you for sending me a copy of the PDF of the book. But in the physical book, those are in the back of the physical book?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes, and I’ll send you a link. They’re also online. I have a link for you and your audience if they want to connect them. Yes.

Eddie Turner:
That’ll be phenomenal because I know that will benefit a lot of people. I I listen to people talk about the fact, mean, obviously it’s not a day that goes by that we don’t pick up the paper and see how many demands are put on people as companies are doing massive layoffs, as AI is creating this tremendous disruption in industry. And there’s one quote that I quote, I repeat a lot that came out of the Wall Street Journal that said, when companies are keeping people,

If you weren’t one of the people who were laid off, you’re happy, but it said, we still think you’re not working enough. Which means we’re not giving you additional resources just because we can’t be you. We expect you to do more, but in the way that you say it in my GE life, do more, but do it faster. Right, do more with less, but do it faster. So.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yeah.

Eddie Turner:
What is someone supposed to do? How can they build? You gave us some tips here and we got the spreadsheet links you’re going to share with us. But is there any other practical steps that someone can take as a leader when their plate is already full to, as you said, hey, don’t wait till I’m actually bankrupt on my energy, but how can I be monitoring this and now take active steps to bounce back as your rebel band illustration says?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
That’s right. And that brings us to a critical central aspect when we think of resilience, particularly in a work context, is that resilience, we need to think of it in a systems type of way. So we’ve got us, the individuals, we’ve got the team we’re in, we’ve got the organization we’re in. We even have the country we’re in, the moment in time we’re in. So many things impact our individual resilience here and our individual resilience.

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
influences these other parts as well. So it is a reciprocal relationship. Now, this, so far we’ve talked a bit more about us as individuals here, because my point is, even if all this is a system, we don’t want to just say, well, this is my team’s fault, this is my organization’s fault, this is the world we live in, and I’ve got no impact or control or power over this. Not true. There are things we can do. That being said,

It would also be a mistake to think that it is entirely in our hands. Right. So we also want to be looking at, what can we have a conversation as a team on where do we have opportunities to decrease stress points or moments where everyone gets more anxious or nervous because it is a procedure we don’t do often or we’re not as optimized on whatever. We can talk about things as a team. We want to learn about.

What as an organization, what is the organization’s mental health strategy? If they have one, if they don’t, what do we know from the HR partners, from the HR teams, what are the resources we have? What are the themes, the plans perhaps that we have to support all of us as humans in the age of AI in this organization? So that, especially if we’re in a leadership role, but even if we’re an individual contributor,

If we know this from the organization, we can maybe optimize, amplify that voice, use these resources, share with others that we do, and possibly even make suggestions or recommendations about additional things that may help. And so, and that’s important to think of it this way, because when we’re looking at say workload, for example, culture.

opportunities for growth and development and so many other factors that we know influence the resilience of everyone, psychological safety as well. There are things we can do and often actions, people will shy away from say conversations on workload because they think leaders will say, well, if I open that, conversation, it’s yeah, I won’t be able to do anything. It will be terrible. It’s better to not even talk about it. And.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
You see where this is going. I’m going to say, no, we do want to open up that conversation. We can do it in a realistic way. We can say, probably cannot change.

Eddie Turner:
That is one of number one corporate fears, I will tell you. Absolutely.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
That’s right. Yes, I know. And yet that’s probably the number one corporate opportunity to change how resilient people are, how we feel about the psychological safety in this organization and in the team we’re in. So yeah, no, we can open the conversation. We can open it realistically and look for the nuggets. And we’ve all been there.

You find something that looks like 5 % of the overall situation, you change it, and it feels like a 20 % change, which starts feeling material. So we want to open that.

Eddie Turner:
So this is a very salient point that you’re making. I really appreciate how you said that people should not consider this as an undertaking that they have to do all by themselves, that to consider this as a systemic cultural shift that might need to be made inside the organization. And the organization is where many people might say, hey, that’s where all my pressure’s coming from. So to have that courage to be able to have that conversation with their manager, try to start the conversation with the team.

try to make that something that maybe we can promulgate throughout the organization to help build resilience as a community in the organization is really something to consider. I really like that. So thank you for sharing that.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Absolutely. Yes. And there are, so go ahead. I was going to add an example of this just to get very practical quickly here, but an example, because people may say, okay, I like the idea. sounds very, whatever, inspiring perhaps, but concretely, what can I do next week without additional budget or additional anything? Well, in your next team meeting, you can ask the team.

Eddie Turner:
What’s the mo- go ahead. Go right ahead.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
When is, and you may know, but you can still as a team, when’s the moment in the next 12 months that we know is the highest demand point? Okay. We often know it is in three months from now, it is always March or whatever it is. Okay. Let’s find one thing we can do now to shift how we’re going to arrive in this most demanding time. See, not a big thing. Small changes. It gives people influence, some control.

We’re being proactive. You’re sharing the value of resilience in the team. Didn’t take budget or a lot of time. That’s an example.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you for sharing that practical suggestion. That’s gonna help a lot of the listeners. Dr. M.H., you’ve shared a lot of morsels of wisdom with us in this conversation. What’s the most important concept or lesson you want listeners to take away from our time together?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
I would love everyone to, and I, when I say this, it literally includes me at times. I have to remind myself to do this, to be strategic about our resilience, to be constantly curious, to look for the ways in which we can, just like in business, step back for a moment and realistically look at what’s in front of us today and in the near future. And what can I do today to shift this?

What for each person that will vary again, always love the practicals. I’m going to give a small example. A lot of leaders will tend to recover in a very active way. They do cardio, they do strength training, and these are wonderful things we want to keep. For many leaders, meditation is not on their list. They sort of know the research and that, but they’ve tried it. Maybe they think it’s not for them. Consider this. If you’re wondering concretely, MH, what can I try now that I…

I have unlikely tried, start the meditation, find an app that’s easy for you, start with two minutes, five minutes, and start implementing. Cause that is one of the things we know from research makes a difference.

Eddie Turner:
That’s a phenomenal suggestion. And as you said, there are many apps that help people to do this. Many people wear smartwatches. And I know that the Apple Watch has that feature built in. It will remind you, hey, it’s been a long day. Take a minute to do some mindful breathing or what have you. So that’s a really great suggestion. Thank you for that. What’s one quote that you use that helps you to keep leading or the best leadership advice you’ve ever received?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Yes.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
that is a good question. So many. I’ll say. Well, related to today’s conversation, one that, and I don’t know if it’s a famous quote from, it’s not necessarily from someone, but a sentence I tend to use, especially with busy leaders. And again, applying it to myself is anything is better than nothing.

And that’s a bit important because often part of what got us to good leadership is doing things fully, a hundred percent. I need to have my half hour of this. I cannot do half hour. I will do it tomorrow instead. You cannot do half an hour. Can you do 15 minutes? Can you do five? Can you do one? Just anything better than nothing, because then you’re maintaining the habit. You’re maintaining the message you tend to yourself. You’re maintaining your…

your curiosity to look for ways to make it work. And so, yeah, I’m going to go with that. Anything better than nothing.

Eddie Turner:
Anything is better than nothing. Those are indeed words to help us all keep leading. It’s been a pleasure to have you, Dr. Image. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Dr. MH Pelletier:
hehe

Dr. MH Pelletier:
They can go to thereziliensplan.com and we’ll have perhaps this information in the show notes. Always love connecting on LinkedIn. Send me an invitation and we’ll connect. But that link will get you to my website, to the book, and we can go from there.

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. Well, I’m going to encourage all my listeners to follow Dr. M.H Peltier. She is a phenomenal leader who’s doing tremendous work. Get a copy of her book and use those tips to help you in your journey of leadership so that you can keep leading. Thank you again for being a guest on the Keep Leading podcast.

Dr. MH Pelletier:
Thank you. was a pleasure.

Eddie Turner:
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. Leadership is not a role that we play. It’s who we are. It’s not a garment that we take off and put on. We must be a leader at our core.

and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 173 | Dr. Marie-Helene Pelletier | The Resilience Plan appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Chief Executive Coach

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Keep Leading Podcast, host Eddie Turner speaks with Dr. Corrie Block, a leading executive coach, about the unique demands of coaching at the C-suite level. They discuss the need for specialized tools and strategies that go beyond traditional coaching methods, the qualifications required of effective executive coaches, and the importance of love in leadership. Dr. Block emphasizes the need for continuous development and the role of AI in augmenting coaching practices. The conversation concludes with key takeaways on the future of executive coaching and the essential qualities of effective leaders.

Takeaways

• Executive coaching requires a unique set of tools for C-suite leaders.
• Non-advisory coaching may not add value at the executive level.
• CEOs need coaches to improve their performance and that of their organizations.

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio

Dr. Corrie Block helps top-tier executives and entrepreneurs achieve peak performance, meaningful work, and exceptional business outcomes. With over 30 years of experience in executive coaching, strategy, and performance neuroscience, he creates purpose-driven transformations that elevate leadership and enhance organizational results.

Recognized as “UAE’s #1 Executive Coach” by Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, Forbes, SHRM, and CIPD, Dr. Block has guided C-suite leaders, boards, and teams across more than 30 countries. His executive coaching programs have delivered ROI ranging from 53x to 901x, underscoring his measurable impact on both people and performance.

An Amazon Global #1 Bestselling author in Management, Dr. Block ranks #24 globally and #1 in MENA on LeadersHum’s Biggest Voices in Leadership. He has consulted for organizations including Microsoft, PepsiCo, the UN, World Bank, Hilton, and Atlantis Hotels.

A lifelong learner with four postgraduate degrees—including an MBA, a master’s in Global Leadership, a Swiss DBA, and a UK PhD—Dr. Block combines academic rigor with real-world experience, having founded and exited five successful ventures. His insights have been featured in Forbes, CEO Magazine, and Entrepreneur.

Website
https://www.corrieblock.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/corrieblock/

Dr. Corrie Block’s Book

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keep-leading/id1461490512

Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/show/0I7uAW3x4AWsLe6cnAzHp7?si=14549a44dec3495f

Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast

The Keep Leading!® podcast is designed for individuals passionate about leadership. It focuses on leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, as he engages with accomplished leaders and influential figures from around the world about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share their leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration

Are you inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network to help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtags #KeepLeading and #KeepLeadingPodcast to join the community of listeners dedicated to continuous growth and excellence in leadership.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast. The Keep Leading Podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner. I work with emerging and experienced leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation,

and professional keynote speeches. Today I’m broadcasting live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. Feel free to share the link with your colleagues so they can hear this discussion later, or if they have time, even join it now with you to be part of our discussion.

As an executive coach, I think I know a lot about this topic. And then I was introduced to a man who’s literally written the book on executive coaching, but taking it to another level. What does it take to be the executive coach to chief leaders in organizations, those CXOs, as some might call them? My guest today argues that it’s

It’s a little bit more than what might be best serving the rest of an organization. And to be effective at that level, you have to open up a different set of tools. So I wanted to know more about that. So I wanted to read his book and talk to him about his book, Chief Executive Officer. My guest today is called

the number one executive coach in United Arab Emirates by none less than the world’s number one executive coach, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. My guest today is Dr. Vlach. Corey, welcome to the Keep Leading Podcast.

Corrie Block:
Thank you so much, Eddie. It is such a privilege to be here. I’m so excited. I’m so excited, finally. And you were like, I’m an executive coach and I’m a speaker and I’m a trainer. And I’m like, I’m that too, but I’m not as good as you. And I’m just aspiring to be like Eddie.

Eddie Turner:
no, no, no. In fact, the other powerful thing about your book that we want folks to be able to grab wherever it’s available is that Chief Executive Coach, I’d expect it to have endorsements by Chief Executive Officers, as you do. Some of top corporations have endorsed your book, but you also went to the luminaries in the coaching field. So when Marshall Goldsmith, the world’s number one executive coach and thought leader,

endorses your book. When Dr. Marsha Reynolds, the number one female executive coach, endorses your book, and so many other people who I saw there, I can’t remember all the names now, that’s saying something because they don’t put their endorsement on something lightly. and I can’t forget, Jay, Jay. Jeff Haslett, I don’t know where his name is, Jeffrey Haslett, the CEO of the C-suite Network has also endorsed this book.

Corrie Block:
Yeah.

Corrie Block:
Yeah.

Corrie Block:
Yeah, like, I’m so honored because these people were my gurus and now they’re my friends.

like Marshall and Steven and Mark Covey, whenever they come through Dubai, have lunch, we talk and it’s, yeah, look, I’m not name dropping now. I’m just fanboying. Okay. So I’m actually like, I’ve been a huge fan for years and then suddenly they want to have lunch with me and I’m like, my God. Right. And this is actually happening. But honestly, I think the biggest reaction that I got from really highly established coaches in the industry was thank God somebody said it out loud. Cause we all, we all talk about it. We all talk about it. The fact that

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, saw him out there too, yeah.

Corrie Block:
Non advisory or Socratic coaching is a really great set of tools, but actually doesn’t add value at the C-suite level. And when we’re dealing with a CEO of 80,000 employees, they really need an Olympic set of tools. know, like my coaching roster represents about half a million employees at the moment, which is great. I’m honored by that. But that means that the CEOs that I’m working with, each of them would be representing an average of about 50,000 families. And the decisions they make every day are either going to serve those families or take money away from those families. so for that, you

like you need an Olympic set of tools because they’re Olympic level athletes.

Eddie Turner:
That’s a very powerful way of looking at it. Now, you jumped right in. I was going to ask you a couple other things first, but you jumped right into it. So let’s go there. You said that a lot of people are so happy you said it, that you said it out loud. Said what?

Corrie Block:
Yeah, come on. I’m an open book, mate. I’m an open book. Whatever you want to know.

Corrie Block:
Yeah, yeah. I just said that like, that executive coaching is a niche.

and it can’t be seen as standard coaching. Like this is, it’s a debate that I had with Magdalena Mook actually, because, Magdalena is the president and CEO of ICF, the International Coaching Federation. I’m a huge fan. I’m a big fan of Magdalena. She’s a great leader. She’s an absolutely fantastic leader. And I’m a big fan of ICF. It’s an amazing organization. But when you, when you market non-advisory or Socratic coaching as executive coaching,

then what it does is it spoils the industry because then executives are getting in front of coaches that are just asking rhetorical questions, thinking, look, you know, if I ask the right questions, you have enough information and insight that you’ll just solve your own problems. But that’s not what you need at the Olympic level. Okay. At the Olympic level, they didn’t get there by being unsure of themselves or not looking through all of their options. They’re very good at decision-making in order to get there. What they need are tactics and strategies and information and viewpoints that they haven’t seen before. They need somewhere.

somebody in between a business strategist and a psychologist and if you have those that blend of skills then you can add value but otherwise like a good deal of CEOs that I talked to they say I’ve tried executive coaching and it’s not for me and then I asked them about their experience and they tell me about an ICF certified coach that asked them questions and they’re like yeah this isn’t it’s not adding value and to be sure Eddie the most expensive piece of my coaching isn’t my fee it’s their time okay they’re their time not just not just in missed labor

cost, but in missed opportunity costs because they’re not making other decisions while they’re listening to me and being with me. So if I’m not able to add value to their level of play within an hour, I don’t deserve to be in that room. And that is the job of an executive coach, is to improve the executive performance of an executive in their job. That’s executive coaching. And you can’t just do that if all you have is one set of tools.

Eddie Turner:
Now that’s powerful. And I have to ask you, you said that you made this statement to Magdalena Mook, the CEO of the International Coaching Federation, and what was her response?

Corrie Block:
Yep. Yeah. she’s lovely. She said, well, listen, we have we have 55,000 registered coaches around the world and I think that earns us the right to define what coaching is.

And said, I said, look, I understand what you’re saying. And I would definitely go to McDonald’s for a definition of what burger is, but I would definitely exclude McDonald’s if I was looking for a definition of Kraft burger, because Kraft makes the burger a niche. And by definition, that level of burger, you have to discount the viewpoint of the volume producer in order to define the high level niche.

Eddie Turner:
Mmm.

Eddie Turner:
Ouch.

Corrie Block:
right? You know, like there’s fashion and then there’s luxury fashion and there’s coaching and then there’s executive coaching and by nature of the fact that you’re the most volume producer of certifications in the world, you’ve disqualified yourself from defining what executive coaching is because that’s the highest level of coaching. And it’s the same in athletics, right? There’s a difference between

football coach and an Olympic football coach just because you can coach football doesn’t mean you can coach an Olympic football team and that they’re not going to derive value from what you offer you have to have a specific level of Acumen and and studies and skill and strategy and Yeah, it’s it’s a whole different level of play. So I think we agreed to disagree on that point But yeah, I’m defining what Kraft burger means for my industry and this is this is my definition

That’s it right there.

Eddie Turner:
Well, that’s, and I must say for the record, full disclosure, obviously I’m an ICF certified coach. I bought into the organization, the rigor, the philosophy and all of that. you know, this is intriguing. In fact, when I was reading your book, you made a statement here. You said, if you’re an ICF certified coach, you may be having an emotional allergy to this already.

Corrie Block:
Yeah, yeah.

Corrie Block:
Yeah.

I did say… Yeah, I know, I know.

Eddie Turner:
I laughed. I laughed because I said, yes, everything you’re saying, goes totally against what we’ve been taught, right? But because I’ve also been trained in different schools for coaching, I get what you’re saying. I can hold both thoughts simultaneously, right? And that’s why I also found it interesting that Marsha endorsed your book, because she’s a big, yeah.

Corrie Block:
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Corrie Block:
This is what’s.

Yeah, look, this is what’s really important. It’s really important to recognize. I’m not saying ICF coaching is bad. I’m saying it’s insufficient. That’s it. It’s a kind of coaching.

But if that’s all you have, then that’s what you think is going to solve the world, right? If the whole, if all you have is a hammer, then the whole world is a nail. So if ICF, if not, if non advisory Socratic coaching is the only set of tools you have, you’ll think that everything. And honestly, it’s a brilliant business move, right? Like if you can convince people that if you can sell people a credential that says anyone can coach anyone else in anything, well, then the whole world is your market, right? And then, and then the rest of the world is their market. It’s brilliant. It’s really brilliant. And from a business standpoint, and it’s great for the coaches.

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Corrie Block:
but not so much for the Olympic level executives, right? Like if you look at the athletic world, the top, all of the first chair violins at every Philharmonic in the world have a violin coach. It’s the violin coach’s job to coach the violin player to play better violin, but they’re not asking the violin player what they think they should do to get better, okay? And it’s the same at the Olympic level, right? Michael Phelps, the most awarded…

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Corrie Block:
Olympian in all of history his his coach was Bob Bowman through all five Olympic games right 39 world records and 28 medals Bob Bowman I guarantee you never asked Michael. Hey, what do you think you should do to get better? No, that’s that’s not Olympic coaching. Okay, that’s yes It’s a Socratic method it is a kind of coaching and it’s a set of tools, but that’s not what Michael Phelps needs That’s not what the first-chair violin player needs and that is certainly not what any CEO that I’ve ever worked with needs

Eddie Turner:
Okay, so what do they need, right? Because you mentioned earlier that they need something between a psychologist and a business strategist. You have four different degrees where you’ve got four different graduate degrees, MBA, couple of other masters, a PhD, and all kind of things, right? So for executives looking for that next tier coach, do they need somebody with all those degrees like yourself?

Corrie Block:
Yeah, awesome. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Corrie Block:
Mm-hmm.

Eddie Turner:
And then what do we find these people?

Corrie Block:
Yeah, look The degrees no I would say look for me minimum requirement is a master’s degree either in psychology or business, right? So an mba or or masters in psychology only because at the master’s degree you learn how to learn better at the phd level You’ll learn that you’ll never know anything at all, right? Like you you finally have access to so much information that you learn that you’ll never be reasonably confident about your conclusion about anything because you can’t interact with enough information fast enough, so

it really humbles you in a doctorate degree. But yeah, I think for people who are coaching at the CEO level in organizations with a thousand or more employees in it,

minimum requirement is a master’s degree in either psychology or business 10 years in business or either 10 years in psychology or 10 years in business and then the research is really clear actually it’s super interesting it actually doesn’t matter if you come from business and learn psychology to become an executive coach or if you come from psychology and learn business to become an executive coach both of those paths tend to be really really effective what’s not effective is if you avoid either of them if you come from just business and you’re like you’re only counting on your previous

experience then you’re subject to knowledge half-life right the knowledge half-life in business is about five years in technology it’s about two years so if you take a CEO who’s been you know CEO in a technology firm and they’ve been out of the

Top job for four years all of their experience is worth about 25 percent of what it would have been because of the knowledge Half-life of the industry so what they need then is they need they need high-level coaching experience and they need continuous development and that you get by Not just certifications and degrees obviously but by devouring books learning new tool kits studying psychology podcasts Having great conversations with people like Stephen Covey and Marshall Goldsmith really help, you know Because we’re trying to forward the industry at the same

Corrie Block:
time. But yes, at that level, at the Olympic level, an Olympic athlete needs an Olympic coach and the Olympic coach can’t play the game as well as their athlete can but they can coach their athlete at their athlete’s level of play and that’s a huge difference.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you for that definition. So that definition now gives executives looking for a coach a set of standards to look for, but then also for coaches, a set of standards to aspire to. What else is missing?

Corrie Block:
Yeah.

Corrie Block:
100 % 100 % we we need more people. We need more people. Look, I can’t possibly meet the demand of my market. Okay, we’ve got thousands of High-level CEOs and executives and just in my just in the UAE. I can’t possibly do that, right? I tell my whole coaching roster is 12 I take 12 and then I’m done that is it because I care about my clients and I want to invest in them and I’m looking at their level of play and I’m helping each of them in their their particular game So yeah, like we really just need thousands

of more amazing executive coaches and there’s not enough of us on the field that are capable of coaching a CEO of a large organization at their level of play. We need more. We’re starving.

Eddie Turner:
Okay, very insightful. And is that what motivated you to write this book?

Corrie Block:
Yeah, actually, interesting Eddie, because all of my books are product of my irritation with the world. So I study, okay? Look, I don’t…

Eddie Turner:
Okay. That’s one way to sit down and pick up the pen.

Corrie Block:
I don’t play golf and I don’t watch football. I don’t watch any sports at all. I read, I write journal articles, and because my wife has forbidden me from doing a third doctorate degree, I write a book every year. And so the book that I write every year is a product of something that I’m irritated about. And so like two years ago, it was love at work. I was irritated about the fact that like the highest quality of relationship between two people is intentionally exiled from the place where we spend the most time with other people. That didn’t seem logical to me.

Eddie Turner:
Okay.

Corrie Block:
So I wrote a book about that because I couldn’t find it. You know, I was looking around for I think Simon Sinek would have done a better job. Amy Edmondson would have definitely done a better job than I did, but nobody had written a book on the highest form of leadership, which is also love. And I felt obliged to write it. Yeah, so I’m irritated that I had to write that. And then I’m irritated that I had to write Chief Executive Coach because it just seemed to me that I was having too many conversations with executives whose performance would 100 % improve.

which means that they would make more money personally because they would meet their KPIs targets and get their bonuses faster and the board would love them more.

That’s what actually happens. And their companies would make more money because, well, culture starts at the top. Right? So if a CEO’s performance goes up, the entire organization’s performance goes up. The research behind this is so solid. We know this. So why boards of directors aren’t requiring executive coaching for their Olympic level CEOs is absolutely beyond me. They’re not just robbing the CEO of their best game, right? They’re not just robbing them of their highest development as an individual, but

but the company of its best performance and their shareholders of their maximum profits, they’re taking money out of people’s hands and leaving it on the table because they don’t want to offend the CEO and say, listen, at this level of play, you kind of need to show up to the Olympics with a coach. That’s a minimum requirement now. And it…

Eddie Turner:
Yeah. Well, that is a good point because not everyone is doing that, but some are certainly. And one of the most famous was when Eric Schmidt was running Google, he cited the fact that one of the chair of his board, who was a big believer to power coaching, insisted that he get a coach.

And he said he didn’t need one. And then the big sound by a lot of us as coaches have repurposed is that 30 seconds where he talks about the fact that every CEO needs a coach. But it came from his board member.

Corrie Block:
Absolutely, and he’s not alone. You know his coach was Bill Campbell So Bill Campbell was was Eric Schmidt’s coach. Yeah, so interestingly Bill Campbell wasn’t all that

Eddie Turner:
Yes, Melondale coach, yes. But John, John, John Doar was the chair of the board who insisted that he get the coach. Yes. Yes.

Corrie Block:
Yep, 100 % and he was right and he was right. Do you know why he was right? Because you don’t know who Brian Pinkerton is. Do you know? Of course not. Brian Pinkerton invented web crawler, which did exactly the same service as Google did. He had a four year first mover advantage. four years first mover advantage, Brian Pinkerton, web crawler. But you don’t know about him because in 1998 Google

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Corrie Block:
I’m Bill Campbell.

And Eric Schmidt, Larry Page and Sundar Pichai were all coached by Bill Campbell. He was consistent for all of them. And Bill Campbell was never as business successful as any of them. Okay. His last major global post was he was the head of sales for Kodak when Kodak was tanking in the late nineties, you know, when everything was switching to digital and Kodak was hanging on to film. it was his career. It wasn’t illustrious enough for him to have that kind of influence.

And yet there he was. And that’s the difference between web crawler and Google. And that’s why you know all of these people’s names is because when you have a really high performing team and really Olympic level athletes, yeah, coaching is a benefit for talent. It’s not therapy. It’s not cheerleading. And it’s certainly not Socratic.

Eddie Turner:
Yes. Well, IT was my first career and I did it in the 90s when a lot of that stuff was developing. I know the whole, I know the web crawler story and the Netscape and all that, right? And that whole Genesis and stuff was unfolding. I don’t necessarily remember everybody’s names like the guy that started it, Mark Anderson, you know, all those guys, right? So all of that was, you know, my time, right? And I still get jazzed on that. I switched over to this stuff later.

Corrie Block:
You’re not that old, Eddie. Come on now. You’re not that old. Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah

Corrie Block:
Yeah.

Eddie Turner:
But IT, especially in Monalisa, was becoming a big deal. that you and I can talk about that for a long time, but also this concept of love at work. I love what you said about that. It sounds like we should do another interview, but I love that concept as well. So yeah, so this is really powerful. Go ahead. Yeah, this is really powerful. And then when…

Corrie Block:
Amazing.

Corrie Block:
Yeah, we… Thanks, man. Thank you. No, I’m saying I’m happy to do another interview. love at work. Next time. Next time.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, yeah, I like that. I know how I missed that when I was doing your, I always do my little prep before sessions. So this is also something that I want you to talk about because this can be very controversial as well. Does an executive coach need experience as an executive to be an executive coach?

Corrie Block:
You

Corrie Block:
Scientifically, no. research is showing that if you have experience as a psychologist…

you can learn enough business to be useful to your executive in their level of play because a good deal of business at that level really is psychology. It’s leadership, management, negotiations, confidence, decision-making, all of that is frameworked on evolutionary and currency psychology. it’s just, if you have a psychology background, you can bring that in and learn the business. Otherwise, yeah, it helps to have some experience in the game.

It would be like, okay, look, you can coach an Olympic athlete, but you’re going to be better if you have some experience doing sports. Even if you were never a winner yourself, if you’ve done sports mechanically, it helps, right? But just remember Bob Bowman, was, who was Michael Phelps’s coach through five Olympic games, right? He was never a competitive swimmer. He swam, I think for his university team for about 18 months in the mid eighties, but you know, swimming in 1985 and swimming in 2000 when Michael took the first

Olympic medal. It was like it was a completely different sport, right? So it helps to understand a bit of the mechanics, but I guarantee you Bob Bowman’s experience in swimming was not valuable when he was coaching Michael Phelps. What was really valuable was his experience coaching swimmers and breaking down. actually, it was interesting. Michael called him a master tactician, right? Somebody with formulas and methods. He broke down every stroke.

He took everything apart and then he would fix one thing at a time until Michael was moving perfectly through the water. that was Bob’s, his gift was to able to analyze Michael’s level of play, pick it apart and then develop tactics and practices and exercises to help him fix every tiny little level of play. And that’s what a good executive coach does is we look at the level of play of our executive. We say, where could performance improve?

Corrie Block:
How can we improve on trust, collaboration, information sharing, decision making quality, input seeking behavior? There’s a lot of these things that we take into consideration, but you can come from psychology and learn the business game, or you can come from business and learn the psychology game, but both I think are necessary at the executive level.

Eddie Turner:
And there’s a lot happening in the industry right now. It’s in a state of transition. And we might even say it’s under assault, as every industry is, because of AI. Where do you see executive coaches, or the profession of executive coaching at large, should say, ahead and over the next five years?

Corrie Block:
Yeah.

Corrie Block:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, look, I don’t think AI is gonna replace coaching, but I think coaches that use it will replace those that don’t. So it’s like any technology, email, computers, calculators before that. Adopting technology helps you to stay in your role. It doesn’t get you ahead.

Right, but those who use it will end up outgrowing those who don’t and that’s just the way that it is you can age out of coaching if you don’t learn how to augment yourself with artificial intelligence. So AI is really actually helping in terms of psychometrics and synthesis team building. So again, you take the team psychometrics from let’s say you do an MBTI five types and and gallop strength binder, for example, you can plug all that into GPT five and it’ll come up with a great synthesis for you and it’ll tell you

where the strengths and weaknesses are in each of the pairs for each of the people on the executive committee and it’ll tell you what the stress behavior is probably going to look like and the triggers that they’ll that they’re probably going to exhibit well that saves me tons of time okay and that’s the starting place for the conversation when we’re looking at a team’s level of play at the executive level you know you got 80 000 families in your care you kind of want the executive committee to be performing at their natural best and if i can get them there a week faster by using an ai then that’s great

but it’s an augmentation, right? It’s not a replacement.

Eddie Turner:
No.

Well, that’s an interesting concept, right? That it’s an augmentation rather than a replacement. Because there are some places that are only giving their employees AI coaching. And then there are other people that are saying, well, hey, I’m not going to hire a real coach because I can just run it through the different AIs that are out there and get the answers I need.

Corrie Block:
Look, at a mid-management level, I think they’re right. I do. I think AI can replace most of what mid-management need from an executive coach.

At the highest level of play you’re dealing with Olympians, right? So by definition I’ll give you a parallel here in the UAE. We have three airlines Okay, we have three airlines, which means there are three CEOs of airlines in this country Anytime you have only three people playing at the highest global level in your country. You have an olympic sport Okay, there are two exactly two telecommunications CEOs in my country That’s it when you have two people playing at the at the national at the global level

for your country. It’s an Olympic level of sport. So you need somebody who’s going to be able to help you to break a world record, whatever that might look like in telecommunications or aviation, FMCG, oil and gas, it’s all the same. These CEOs are trying to lead their companies to do things that have never been done before. And that’s the very definition of a world record. So when you do that, you’re going to have to have a level of creativity that a derivative AI isn’t going to be able to have because they’re dealing with information that’s already

been had and their level of creativity still isn’t up to the standard of hey listen let’s figure out how to make you run faster than any human has ever been measured running before. It’s a different level of thought. So yeah at the mid-management level I can see it I can see it like helping you process business decisions and negotiations and interpersonal conflict but at the executive level you’re you’re gonna need an Olympic coach.

Eddie Turner:
Okay, thank you for sharing that. What’s the most important message you want our listeners to take away from our conversation today?

Corrie Block:
I love you and that’s not weird and it’s not unprofessional. I love you and there’s nothing to do with romance or sexuality because I love my mother and I love my kids and it’s okay for me to love you because all that means is I’m going to use my resources to try to improve the quality of your life as much as I can for as long as you’ll let me and that is the most natural thing I can think of.

Eddie Turner:
Okay, is there a quote that you use that helps you to keep leading?

Corrie Block:
There’s so many. There’s so many. Yeah. And it’s actually from John Maxwell. Leadership is a follower led sport. Managers are chosen by other managers, but leaders are chosen by followers. No leader is created by another leader. And we don’t follow leaders because they’re great. We follow leaders because doing so improves the quality of our lives somehow. are deriving value from emulating them, from learning from them, from…

know, modeling after them, whatever it is that they’re doing, improves our lives. Because if it didn’t, we wouldn’t follow them. So John Maxwell also said famously, is like, you want to know whether or not you’re a leader, just look behind you. Because if nobody’s following you, you’re just going for a walk.

Eddie Turner:
Well said. Thank you very much. Dr. Corey Block, please tell my listeners where they can learn more about you, follow you, and stay connected to you.

Corrie Block:
Absolutely, yeah, I’m sure that there will be a link in the description to the video below. www.coryblock.com is the easiest place to find me and LinkedIn at Cory Block.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, so this is going to be available wherever you get podcasts because after this session, this will still live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. But also you will be getting on Spotify because this is part of the C-suite radio network. We’re turning up the volume on business. And so in all those show notes, you will see the links to Dr. Block so that you can access the content and go there.

Corrie Block:
Nice.

Eddie Turner:
And a reminder that the show is also sponsored by Papillon MDC. My friends out of Canada, when we’re talking about coaching, how can we not mention that they have Decision X, a bespoke on-demand service designed to help your leaders overcome indecision and move forward with their work. So visit Papillon, P-A-P-I-L-L-O-N-M-D-C.

to learn how you can advance your team, get them unstuck, shift perspective today. All right, Dr. Block, thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure talking with you. I could talk to you for hours. So we definitely gotta get you back on, okay?

Corrie Block:
My pleasure, Eddie. My pleasure, Eddie. It’s so good. And wherever you are, wherever you are, just love somebody near you, okay?

Eddie Turner:
All right, sounds good. That concludes this episode, everyone. Thank you for listening. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core.

and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 172 | Dr. Corrie Block | Chief Executive Coach appeared first on Eddie Turner.

The Emotionally Healthy You

Episode Summary
In this episode of the Keep Leading Podcast, host Eddie Turner interviews Dr. Karthik Ramanan, author of ‘The Emotionally Healthy You.’ They discuss the importance of emotional health in leadership, Dr. Karthik’s personal journey from Wall Street to becoming a naturopathic doctor, and the five pillars of emotional health: psychology, relationships, nutrition, sleep, and body movement. Dr. K emphasizes the need for leaders to recognize when they need help and how emotional health impacts decision-making and relationships. The conversation also covers practical steps for improving emotional health and creating psychological safety in the workplace.

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio
Dr. Karthik Ramanan (Dr. K) serves executives and their companies as their Emotional Health Mentor.

Through his Emotional Health Mastery individualized mentorship program, he teaches practical strategies founded in the Five Pillars of Emotional Health to help executives become holistically successful, including their relationships and health in addition to their business.

Through his Emotionally Healthy Company program, Dr. K guides individuals at all levels of the organization to become more emotionally intelligent and resilient, allowing for better communication as well as improved morale and retention. A great company culture starts from within each person, and an investment in our people is an investment in our bottom line.

Takeaways

Emotional health is crucial for effective leadership.
Dr. Karthik’s journey highlights the importance of personal transformation.
The five pillars of emotional health are essential for well-being.
Recognizing the signs of burnout is key to seeking help.
Emotional health directly impacts decision-making and relationships.
Investing in emotional health is like investing for the future.
Creating psychological safety fosters a healthier work environment.
Leaders must model emotional well-being for their teams.
Struggling does not equate to failure; it’s part of growth.
Finding purpose and belonging is vital for emotional health.

Sound bites

“Rock bottom is a beautiful place.”
“We will change when it hurts enough.”
“We need to feel like we belong.”

Website
https://www.drkarthikramanan.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkarthikramanan/

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keep-leading/id1461490512

Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
https://open.spotify.com/show/0I7uAW3x4AWsLe6cnAzHp7?si=14549a44dec3495f

Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is designed for individuals passionate about leadership. It focuses on leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, as he engages with accomplished leaders and influential figures from around the world about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share their leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Are you inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network to help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtags #KeepLeading and #KeepLeadingPodcast to join the community of listeners dedicated to continuous growth and excellence in leadership.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 171 | Dr. Karthik Ramanan | The Emotionally Healthy You appeared first on Eddie Turner.

The Courage to Leave

Episode Summary

What does it take to walk away from success—and toward authenticity? In this inspiring episode of the Keep Leading!® Podcast, host Eddie Turner sits down with Jeff Davis, speaker, author, and former corporate executive, to explore the true meaning of courage in leadership and life.

Jeff shares his personal journey of leaving a high-powered career to pursue purpose, alignment, and freedom. Together, Eddie and Jeff unpack the emotional resilience behind major transitions, the cost of staying versus the reward of leaving, and how self-leadership shapes personal and professional reinvention.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating career change, leadership transformation, or personal growth—and a reminder that real courage isn’t just about leading others, but leading yourself.

🎙️ Tune in now to gain actionable insights, inspiration, and strategies to help you Keep Leading!®

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio
Jeff Davis is the award-winning author of four books and a sought-after professional speaker, consultant, and mental health advocate. With keynote speeches delivered worldwide, Jeff is recognized as an expert in mental health, authentic leadership, resilience, and more. A TEDx speaker and Forbes contributor, he’s frequently featured on top podcasts. Jeff speaks and consults with schools, nonprofits, organizations, associations, and businesses, and has interviewed influential figures, including a billionaire, Senators, CEOs, and New York Times bestselling authors. Referred to as “The Muhammad Ali of Mental Health,” Jeff is known for his deep insights and openness. He’s traveled to five continents and holds a master’s degree from Johns Hopkins Carey Business School. Originally from Connecticut, Jeff currently resides in Tampa Bay, Florida.

Website
https://jeffdspeaks.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/speakerjeffdavis/

Twitter
https://x.com/jeffdavis027

Facebook
facebook.com/speaker.jeffreydavis/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/jeffldavis/

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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast

The Keep Leading!® podcast is designed for individuals passionate about leadership. It focuses on leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, as he engages with accomplished leaders and influential figures from around the world about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share their leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Are you inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network to help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtags #KeepLeading and #KeepLeadingPodcast to join the community of listeners dedicated to continuous growth and excellence in leadership.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello everyone. Welcome to Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live as the Keep Leading Podcast, live stream version, is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation,

and professional speaking. Today I’m streaming live on LinkedIn, YouTube and Facebook. Share, hit that share button so that your friends could get a copy of this recording when it’s completed or even be able to tap in live as we’re having this discussion. And if you have questions for my guests, feel free to submit your questions. And as long as they come through on the platform, sometimes they don’t.

I’m happy to entertain that live and allow my expert guests to answer your questions. Look for this episode also via replay, not just on the social media feeds, but also on your favorite podcast platform where you can download the audio anywhere in the world. And if you’re using Spotify, you’ll get the audio and the video.

Have you ever been in a situation where you were so frustrated at work? You were so just feeling like you were being eviscerated, that you wanted to give up, just throwing the towel? More and more people are reporting feeling that way. But for a variety of reasons, they have to hang on.

And so they deal with these circumstances that are less than healthy, that are less than ideal. What can you do? To answer that question, I’ve invited my expert guest today, Jeff Davis. Jeff Davis has taken his own experiences and those of countless others and detailed them in his new book.

Eddie Turner:
that is entitled, The Courage to Leave, Breaking Free from Toxic Workplaces. So in our conversation today, we’re gonna talk about how you can recognize toxic work environments, what you can do about them, and how you can protect your mental health while strategizing for your next career move. Jeff is the person to talk about this.

And this isn’t his only book. He’s written four books and he’s a leadership expert in addition to being a mental health expert. Jeff, welcome to the Keep Bleeding podcast.

Jeff Davis:
Eddie, absolute pleasure to be here. I’m looking forward to our discussion today.

Eddie Turner:
Well, it’s an honor to have you and something else about you that people may not know that I am dying to find out the answer to is you’ve been referred to as the Muhammad Ali of mental health. How did that come about?

Jeff Davis:
Yes, so I have a dear friend and colleague who is a fellow speaker and that’s a nickname he gave me because he noticed I was very persistent in talking about mental health and it’s also something that a lot of people avoid, which we of course share respectfully, but at the same time realize that to shatter the taboo and to help people, we need to keep talking about it. And this dear friend of mine by the name of Aditya, he saw that despite

people not necessarily agreeing with me speaking up about it or understanding or even always supporting it. I always truly believed in that North Star to speak up, to help people with their mental health and to keep this conversation going. So he gave me that nickname and it’s one that has stuck.

Eddie Turner:
that’s a tall order. Very nice. So the courage to leave. Tell us what made you write this book.

Jeff Davis:
Yes, the courage to leave. as throughout my career, I’ve done multiple things simultaneously. I’ve been this writer and professional speaker, and I’ve had my corporate career, and they’ve both supported and complimented one another. And in a transparent way, I will share with the purpose of helping other people that I’ve dealt with an extraordinary amount of toxic workplaces. Now, this is not to complain. I’m sharing this to shine a light on it and to help other people who may be struggling as well.

I’m talking about walking out on the spot in a job I had in Times Square, New York City, dealing with a corrupt CEO in Connecticut. I had a very unfortunate situation happen at a team event in New York where a colleague actually charged me with a weapon, specifically a knife, and he had to be held back by some of his colleagues. A very unfortunate. I then go overseas to the Netherlands. I lived overseas for many years and I dealt with

a number of toxic companies, including a corrupt multi-billion euro conglomerate that I stood up to with, my team of lawyers. Now I share all that because I’m one person. And for this book I wrote, it was really important to me that I get other perspectives in the book talking about all different kinds of workplace harassment. And I’m speaking up about it because it’s prevalent and because not enough people are talking about it. And there are many people who feel stuck in a loan.

And my most sincere hope, desire and intention is that people feel heard, seen, acknowledged and valued by this discussion that’s happening.

Eddie Turner:
Interesting. Thank you for sharing that.

birthing of a book where it came from. So when you start to dissect what a toxic workplace looks like, how do you help people to understand the difference between a toxic workplace as compared to a workplace that just has your typical challenges that we should all expect?

Jeff Davis:
Yes, it’s a subtle nuance and it will actually vary per person in the sense that what one person may interpret as harassment may not necessarily be that way to another person. But the important distinction here is that on the person on the receiving end, if they feel it’s harassment, then it is. So what I would say is, is it something that’s recurring? Is it being repeated over time? I think about my friend Anya, who I featured in the book, who worked at Metta.

aka Facebook, and the subtle bullying she experienced was not direct and it was not overt, but it was covert where it happened repeatedly. So a lot of times a one-off event can occur and we all make mistakes, myself included. And if that event can be addressed respectfully, and if it can be prevented moving forward, you may not be dealing with a toxic workplace, you’re just dealing with the imperfection of human beings. If those events occur repeatedly,

If there’s nothing being done to prevent it from moving forward, if people aren’t open to conversations, and if you feel like you’re being bullied or harassed or discriminated against, then indeed it is a toxic environment. So that is the nuance to pay attention to.

Eddie Turner:
Show 1-2.

Jeff Davis:
Say that again.

Eddie Turner:
What should one do in those circumstances?

Jeff Davis:
Yes. So if you are in that situation where you find that you’re being bullied and harassed, first of all, I encourage anyone and everyone to speak up. There’s enormous power in speaking up. That could be to your boss, to your boss’s boss, even someone in leadership in the executive C-suite. Now I do acknowledge that it can be very scary to speak up and not everyone may want to do that. So there are other things that you can do where you can talk to colleagues about the situation.

and you can seek resources. I will say that human resources often is not as supportive as they claim to be, but I will say that in every workplace, even with bad eggs, you can find at least one person who might be able to advocate or sponsor for you, or can at least be a listening ear. Another thing I encourage people to do is that when the bullying becomes extreme and it becomes something that’s really hurting your health, I encourage others to seek legal counsel.

There are all sorts of workplace lawyers, employment lawyers, and that’s something that could be very valuable as well. Seeking legal counsel is how in fact I defeated the corrupt company. So those are things you can do. It doesn’t mean you have to quit on the spot. I do encourage others to look for new opportunities and to get out of there if the entire ecosystem is toxic. As you said to me once before, Eddie, in one of our previous conversations, sometimes the toxicity is completely pervasive in that culture.

In that case, I say get out. And if you’re not able to leave on the spot because you need the income to pay your bills, then that’s where you’re looking for a new job while biding your time. And as I said, while speaking up about the situation.

Eddie Turner:
You said that sometimes HR is not as helpful as we might hope. And in your book, you refer to your own experience with the actual director of HR.

Jeff Davis:
Yes, that is something that I found not only in my experience, but in the conversations with many other people. And I learned this the hard way. I was a little bit in the dark at first where I thought, it’s human resources. They’re there to help you. And more often than not, and it’s not black and white, but more often than not, I will say this, human resources is there to protect the interests of the company.

Now, yes, there are exceptions to the rule. There are good HR people out there as well. However, a lot of the times they’re not going to have your best interests at heart. They may not help you to end bullying if, for example, the perpetrator is someone who is valued by the company. They may not even respect the fact that you spoke up. So that’s something crucial to keep in mind that HR director, I defeated him by

consulting the legal resources, I talked to colleagues both in and outside of the workplace who were also dealing with his harassment demands, threats and corruption. And then of course, knowing that knowledge is power and applied knowledge is power, I was able to speak up not only with my lawyers, but I actually spoke up to the global CEO of the company. And I told the global CEO respectfully what happened and he proceeded to fire the HR director. So I really, really espouse the power.

of speaking up and it’s something that I’ve seen in my experience and I’ve seen work for other people as well.

Eddie Turner:
Now, what you’re describing requires a lot of courage. That’s not something that is within the realm of many people. So where does this courage come from?

Jeff Davis:
That’s a great point. And I’ve never been asked that specific question before. tip kudos and hats off to you for that. I first of all would say, find your inner strength. If you’re, if you’re seeking for your courage, first of all, it’s okay. If you feel scared, in fact, acknowledge that you feel scared. like to tell others about a technique called R A V recognize, acknowledge, validate. And I’m sharing this to help others find their inner strength and then ultimately courage at their core.

You recognize, you simply are recognizing how you’re feeling. You acknowledge it. I see you, I feel you, and you validate it. You put a name to the emotion. You could say, you know, are you scared? Are you confused? Are you angry? Maybe it’s a mix of all of that. And once you’ve gone through that process and you’ve done the inner work, you can connect with your inner strength, and that’s how you can find courage. I would also say to know this,

When you speak up, it’s not just for you. It’s for other people as well. That corrupt company, there was someone who was actually considering this is very sad, very, very sad. He was considering ending his life because the HR director bullied harassed and threatened him to such an extreme point. He called me up and I convinced him to continue living. I’m saying this because finding courage comes from knowing that other people are hurting too.

Eddie Turner:
you

Jeff Davis:
and you’re helping a lot of people by speaking up. So connecting with your true self, acknowledging how you feel and going within to find that inner strength to say, you know what, I’m not gonna tolerate this anymore.

Eddie Turner:
Okay, well thank you for sharing that helpful tip for us, Jeff, and how we can muster up the courage to take an action. Because when you’re talking about taking on the HR director, taking on, you mentioned speaking to the global leadership team, that’s no small potato, as we say, where I came from.

Jeff Davis:
Yeah.

Eddie Turner:
Very good. All right, I want to take a quick pause here to acknowledge the sponsors of the Keep Leading podcast. If a single employee’s indecision can cost an organization $10,000 to a million dollars, imagine the potential financial impact when more individuals are added to this indecision equation. It can spiral out of control quickly. And

I would like to share here for those who are watching the live program what this looks like on the screen. Decision X is a bespoke on-demand service designed to help your leaders overcome a decision and move forward with their work. Visit Papillon MDC and discover how you can help your team get unstuck, perspective, and advance today. That’s Papillon.

MDC based out of Canada, my great friends there and Canada. All right. So we’ll stop sharing that one and switch over to the next organization I want to acknowledge. And that is the C-suite radio network. I mentioned in the introduction that you can download these episodes by visiting C-suite network.

dot com, where the C-suite radio is. So C-suite radio, the Keep Leading Podcast is a part of the C-suite radio network where we’re turning up the volume on business. So in addition to other places that you can download these episodes, visit the C-suite network and get connected to my other colleagues there who are also doing great podcasts. All right.

So I want to turn back to my conversation here with Jeff Davis. Jeff Davis is an award-winning author, professional speaker, a leadership and mental health expert, the book, out of these four books, the book we’re talking about today is The Courage to Leave. And you share with us some interesting ways to identify a toxic workplace.

Eddie Turner:
steps we can take if we find ourselves in that situation before our break. Here’s what I want to know, Jeff. You talked about it from an individual’s perspective who is going through it. What can leaders who are observing what this, what other individuals might be going through, what can they do? Because sometimes they see it unfolding and they know that that person is right into the core who is putting people through this.

But they feel, even though they’re in a leadership position, they feel paralyzed.

Jeff Davis:
Yes. Excellent question here. I’m going to start with a general point and then I’m going to go into a more specific point that I talk into with the book so that I can add as much value here as possible. So first off, we talked about courage. This is something that has come up in our discussion here today. And I would encourage the senior leaders, the executive team, the C-suite to have the courage to address the behavior with the bully. Now,

It may not mean firing them on the spot, but it could mean letting someone go. And what I’ve seen in my experience and also other people I talked to is that people knew who the bad egg or the bad eggs was or were, but the senior leaders didn’t have the courage to address it and to eventually let them go. So having the guts to sit them down and to acknowledge your behavior is hurting others. can walk them through a plan.

You can walk them through mentorship to improve. And if they don’t improve, you do need to let them go. Sounds simple. A lot of companies really struggle to let them go. I’ll now very quickly go into a four step process that truly can help all leaders to implement this at an entire organizational level. This is how culture shift occurs. First of all, we want, we want to step out of siloed training.

We want to look at the entire system, the entire culture of the organization. And if you can step away from just the individual and look at how could you train the entire team that will elevate things. Then we have experiential versus passive learning. And this is something where Eddie, you’re well versed this as a successful executive coach, where this is the power of mentoring and we can mentor team members to experientially learn and then.

essentially get live application in the workplace. This is something that senior leaders kick off, but the change is happening at the granular level. And I’m saying this because there’s that disconnect between senior leaders and the granular level, and this will bridge the gap. Two more things. We have a cognitive framework for behavioral change. So we’re looking at habits. looking at self-awareness. How can we bridge the self-awareness gap? And that’s something senior leaders can help.

Eddie Turner:
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Davis:
both themselves and the team do. And finally, custom and contextual facilitation. How do these changes impact the goals of the organization? And what I found in my research is that when colleagues, team members and employees can essentially align their habits with the goals of the organization, it will benefit both themselves and the entire company. We need senior leaders to kick this off. We need social proof. We need modeling behaviors. And then we need this ingr-

starting to be implemented at the granular level.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. Are there any organizations that you consider best in class at following these steps?

Jeff Davis:
Yeah, that’s a great question. One of the organizations that’s best in class is Toyota. They have taken measures to completely transform their organization with this kind of effective leadership. So that’s one organization that I like to talk about. Toyota has been very, very strong in that regard as well. And then I can also think back to my own experiences in my own life. I work for a digital marketing.

consultancy in Connecticut called Acara Partners and they were excellent because the CEO embodied the leadership of putting his employees first. And because he put his employees first, the employees could then make the profits work. So that’s something that I also like to teach as a leadership expert that you need to put your employees first and they’ll make the profits and that’s way better than putting profits first and ringing out your employees.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely, very good. Well, thank you, Jeff. You’ve shared very interesting information for us to understand how we can identify talks and workplaces and the steps you can take if we find ourselves in that position. One last item I’d like to cover is, you mentioned earlier how there were these restraints on people who find themselves in the situation.

be it financially, hey, I need this job, I can’t leave or whatever the reasons are. If they do realize that the only way out is to leave the organization, it’s not going to get better by staying or appealing or trying to work the mechanisms for improvement, how can they begin to set up successful exit strategy?

Jeff Davis:
Yes, there are many times where the only way out is to leave. And whether that means you’re leaving right now or soon or as soon as you can, that truly may be the best strategy in some cases. So first of all, what I like to coach others to do is to explore your options as much as possible. And this is something that I have lived.

I’ve experienced that others I’ve talked to as well. I’ll give you an example. Indeed indeed is a job search engine and I encourage you to look for jobs on indeed. And I’m not just talking about one or two, but let’s see if you can do five or seven, maybe 10, maybe if you’re really on fire, maybe it’s 20 applications in a single day. And I promise you from the most sincere part of who I am that there are other jobs out there. And I understand the fear that there aren’t, but there are.

And what I’ve seen a lot of people do is they’ll give up after a few rejections. And that’s why I’m saying, don’t just send a couple applications. Don’t give up after a few rejections, keep going and explore options via a job search engine. Like indeed you can work with recruiters. You can reach out to former colleagues. Colleagues can perhaps join you in that, in the job hunt in terms of helping you. Maybe it’s pulling you into their organization. Maybe it’s giving you ideas.

I like to encourage others to do informational interviewing where you’re identifying what’s a better job and career for you. And you explore that by reaching out to people via LinkedIn, via email, via networking events, like Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, Kiwanis, Lions, Toastmasters, et cetera. And you can interview people and identify exactly what kind of role that you desire to have. So these are all things that someone can do to get a better exit plan.

and to keep going. I acknowledge how incredibly hard it is, but there are other jobs out there waiting for you. You just have to keep persevering.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed. Thank you, Jeff. What’s the most important message you want our listeners to take away from our conversation?

Jeff Davis:
Most important message that I would like the listeners to take away from today’s conversation is that you are not alone. One, you are not alone. So many countless people are dealing with workplace toxicity and they feel stuck all around the world. I promise you, you’re not alone. And number two, you have options, you have choices, you have other possibilities. And that’s why you can then move forward to step into activating those possibilities.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. What quote do you use to help you keep leading?

Jeff Davis:
Yes, there is a phenomenal, fantastic quote by the legendary coach, John Wooden. he talks about, in his specific quote, is that the essential primary key to leadership is to first lead and change yourself and to model that behavior yourself. He talks about the primary key is to first model and change that behavior yourself.

So you have to lead by leading by example. And John Wood is talking about leading by example. And that’s why I love that quote so much.

Eddie Turner:
Leading by example, and as our show says, keep leading. Very nice. Thank you for sharing that. I want to make sure folks know to reach out to you at jeffdespeaks.com. D as in David, for those who are listening to this on audio. I am showing the actual website for those who are tuned into the live program. Very, very nice. Jeff, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for being a guest today on the Keep.

leading podcast.

Jeff Davis:
My pleasure, Eddie. Thank you so much for having me today.

Eddie Turner:
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate.

in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 170 | Jeff Davis | The Courage to Leave appeared first on Eddie Turner.

The Science of Leadership

Episode Summary

What does science teach us about becoming a more effective leader? In this episode of the Keep Leading!® Podcast, host Eddie Turner sits down with Dr. Jeffrey Hull, executive coach, psychologist, and author of Flex: The Art and Science of Leadership in a Changing World.

Together, they explore how cutting-edge research in neuroscience, emotional intelligence, and adaptive leadership is transforming how we think about success in organizations today. Dr. Hull shares actionable insights on:

• Applying the science behind leadership agility and psychological safety.
• Leading teams through rapid change and innovation.
• Balancing data-driven decision-makingwith empathy and authenticity.
• Developing emotional intelligence to improve team engagement and performance.

Whether you’re an executive, team leader, or aspiring coach, this conversation offers science-backed strategies to help you lead with clarity, curiosity, and confidence.

Listen now to discover why leadership is both an art and a science—and how you can use proven research to Keep Leading!®

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio
Jeffrey Hull is a leadership consultant, executive coach, and Executive Director of the Institute of Coaching at Harvard Medical School, where he also serves as a clinical instructor in psychology. Named one of the top fifty coaches in the world by Thinkers50 in 2024, Hull has conducted over 20,000 coaching sessions with senior leaders globally through his consultancy, Leadershift Inc. He is the author of the bestselling book “FLEX: The Art and Science of Leadership in a Changing World” and co-author of the upcoming “The Science of Leadership: Nine Ways to Expand Your Impact” (July 2025), which combines coaching practices with actionable science for everyday leaders. An adjunct professor at New York University and sought-after keynote speaker, Hull has worked with major organizations including Goldman Sachs, Yale New Haven Medical Institute, and the International Coach Federation, focusing on evidence-based leadership development and transformational coaching techniques.

Website
https://www.jeffreyhull.com

Dr. Jeff Hull’s Book
https://www.scienceofleadership.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffreywhull/

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
https://bit.ly/4kPBcZo

Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
https://spoti.fi/4iOFzlB

Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast

The Keep Leading!® podcast is designed for individuals passionate about leadership. It focuses on leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, as he engages with accomplished leaders and influential figures from around the world about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share their leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration

Are you inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network to help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtags #KeepLeading and #KeepLeadingPodcast to join the community of listeners dedicated to continuous growth and excellence in leadership.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello, welcome to Keep Leading Live. This is the live edition of the Keep Leading podcast where we look at leadership subjects and the idea is about leadership development and insights for my listeners. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation,

and keynote speeches. I’m broadcasting today on usually LinkedIn, don’t think that was gonna work, but Facebook and YouTube. This is a part of the C-suite network. So on C-suite radio, you can access this or wherever you download podcasts within a week or so we’ll have that live there. And this is available on Spotify as a video.

as well as the audio for you to be able to replay later. So we’ll encourage you to access the show later on in that respect. And if you’re not following my guests today, I’m going to encourage you to do that. This is someone who you definitely want to know. Now, here’s the reason why. This is a Keep Leading Podcast. It’s all about leadership. And I’ve examined many aspects of leadership.

And everyone has definitions. And I even took one of my most fulfilling programs I ever took in my life was about the art of leadership. Well, today I have a gentleman who has done research on the science of leadership. What does that mean? Why does it matter? Why should you want to read this new book that he’s released with that precise title?

Jeffrey Hull:
My guest today is Dr. Jeffrey Hull. Dr. Jeffrey Hull at Department of War.

Eddie Turner:
My guest today is Dr. Jeffrey Hull. Dr. Jeffrey Hull and Margaret Moore have written the book, The Science of Leadership. And we’re going to look at the systematic elements that they have compiled that allow you to process what effective leadership looks like. And Dr. Jeff Hull is no stranger here on the Keep Leading Podcast. He is one of my few repeat guests.

Jeffrey Hull:
the science of leadership. And we’re going to look at the systematic elements of the EF compile that allow you to process what effective leadership looks like. And Dr. Jeff Ho is no stranger to that.

Eddie Turner:
So when I saw that he had this new book coming out, it’s right in harmony with everything that I’m passionate about. had to interview him. So I’m grateful that he accepted my interview. Jeff, welcome back to the Keith Levy Podcast.

Jeffrey Hull:
Thank you, Eddie. It’s a pleasure to be back with you again.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you for agreeing to come back and be with me. Tell our listeners who don’t know who you are, just a little bit about yourself.

Jeffrey Hull:
Well, like everyone else, I have a long convoluted resume, but the simple version is I am currently the executive director of the Institute of Coaching, which is a global association of coaches affiliated with Harvard Medical School. And I am also a leadership coach like you. So a good portion of my time is spent coaching leaders all over the world.

And then finally I do some writing, as you mentioned, a new book just came out, my third book. And I also teach Harvard Medical School part-time at NYU. And I recently started teaching part-time in Berlin at ESMT, doing some programs there. So a little combination, I guess they call it the portfolio career, writing, teaching, coaching, all the great stuff.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, but what’s beautiful is you’re writing, teaching, coaching, they go hand in hand. And so when you’re teaching, you’re bringing real world evidence to the classroom that is practical. Not just we need that hardcore academic component, but you’re able to blend the two and you’re a true citizen of the world, truly traveled across the globe. And all of that shows through not only your examples that you share,

Jeffrey Hull:
Right.

Eddie Turner:
but also in your writing and the depth of your research that isn’t just focused on one hemisphere, as sometimes we might fall into the trap of doing. And therefore, this book is truly something that everyone can benefit from because it has global application. To that end, tell us, you and Margaret Moore, who I’m also a tremendous fan of, decided to combine your years of experience to write this book. How did that happen?

Jeffrey Hull:
Well, it’s obviously these things, it’s a long convoluted story as to how it all fell in place, but Margaret Moore is one of the co-founders of the Institute of Coaching. She has a very long celebrated career in research and science. She was actually a biotech executive before she went into the coaching space. And then I have a psychology background and

was a executive coach and psychologist for a number of years before I joined the Institute of Coaching. So together we have been working, bringing the science of coaching to coaches for over a decade. And we started having a conversation with a publisher a couple of years ago around the lack of access that leaders have, not just coaches, but leaders.

to the latest and greatest research on what makes leadership effective. And we all discussed with the publisher the fact that there are so many academic publications over the last 20, 30 years of research that look at different components of leadership. And they are then written up in academic journals.

And they’re really interesting if you like reading academic journals. But the reality is that the vast majority of day-to-day leaders, and you know this as well as I do, the people we coach, they don’t have time to read academic research. They know that it’s there. They get a little summary here and there from Harvard Business Review or from Forbes. But in general, the academic research that has been building strongly over the last decades

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Jeffrey Hull:
is really not accessible or not day-to-day usable for most leaders. And so Margaret and I decided with the support of our publisher to basically go through a summary of all the research in the last 20 or 25 years around leadership effectiveness, all the studies. And we did not read 15,000 studies, but what we did do is we went through them.

Eddie Turner:
So

Jeffrey Hull:
bulk of the majority of studies in the last five years on all the different topics related to leadership. And you can imagine it’s servant leadership, transformational leadership, authentic leadership, agile, there’s so many different versions, right? And what we tried to do was then putting on our coach hats, we took that research summary

Eddie Turner:
Yes, absolutely.

Jeffrey Hull:
and tried to frame it in such a way that this great academic work, by the way, that includes 22 countries around the world. So it’s global research, academics from universities all over the world. We look for a way to frame it so that it would be accessible and practical. We created a framework with what we considered to be the nine most studied

Eddie Turner:
you

Jeffrey Hull:
competencies or modalities of leadership. And then we incorporated the two things that I think are really crucial to any leader, which is coaching stories, like real life stories of how these apply, and then finally some practices. So each chapter has real practices that leaders can put into action, or they could work with a coach and use them. The book could be…

Eddie Turner:
Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Hull:
used by the leader by him or herself, or it could be used with a coach. But each chapter, each of the nine areas that we focused on has specific practices. So the idea fundamentally was to take really rich research and translate it into something accessible.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent.

Eddie Turner:
And that you’ve done. So, and thank you for giving me an early copy. I have a digital copy. Normally I’d have it on my shelf here. Excuse me, sharing that. Now I’m getting all choked up talking to you. Normally I’d have that on display. So I have had a chance to read it and it’s precisely everything you described. So the idea that you have taken 15,000 specific scientific studies across 22 different countries.

Jeffrey Hull:
That’s okay.

Eddie Turner:
applied your 20,000 hours of coaching to distill it in a way that would be meaningful to not just those in the executive suite who want to understand leadership, no matter what level they’re at, but also to those who will coach them. That’s quite powerful. And as evidence of the quality of the research you put into this book, you have some very impressive endorsements.

Jeffrey Hull:
Right.

Eddie Turner:
When you open it up and you see that none other than noted Harvard Business School professor, Amy Edmondson has endorsed this book. Global executive coaching leader and thinker, Marshall Goldsmith has endorsed this book. And the CEO of the International Coaching Federation, Magda Mook has endorsed it. Just to say a couple of people, that tells you the quality of the book and what people think about, who’s the target audience?

These people have said this is the book you want to read if you’re in these lanes.

Jeffrey Hull:
Yeah, I think what’s unique is this approach that we took to leadership is that the vast majority, there’s hundreds and hundreds of leadership books, and some really good ones. And I think, in fact, you’ve written a couple of good ones yourself. So there’s some really good leadership stuff out there. But what we tried to do was to look at the

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Jeffrey Hull:
studies that academic researchers have been doing on the different domains of leadership over the last decade, couple of decades. And recognizing that the science, I mean, I think most people think of leadership as an art and the science. It’s a little bit of both. And a lot of the art of leadership is written about by coaches like yourself or me, and also by famous

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Jeffrey Hull:
famous CEOs, know, Jeff Bezos or CEO Elon Musk or the CEO of Starbucks. What was his name? I’m forgetting, but you know who I’m talking about.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, I can’t believe I forget Howard Schultz.

Jeffrey Hull:
Howard Schultz, yeah. So they write these wonderful stories and they’re very inspiring. And I think they can be really helpful to leaders, but every leadership dynamic is unique. So you can’t just read Jeff Bezos’ story and try to replicate that. That’s a unique situation. It’s inspiring, but it’s a particular moment in time with a particular idea. It’s like an entrepreneur’s leadership. What we tried to do

is look at the research that is more across the board, across the landscape of leadership, summarize the findings that these professors of 22 different universities across the globe have discovered, and then make that information, which is available in the public domain, but it’s not easy to read. It takes a lot of extra time and energy. We tried to summarize it in a way

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Jeffrey Hull:
that is really simple, very accessible, and also creates a roadmap for leaders. Whether a senior leader or a starting out leader, you can’t really be good at everything right from the beginning, right? You have to grow, you have to learn.

Eddie Turner:
Are you sure? Because there are some folks that would argue with you on that one now.

Jeffrey Hull:
They wake up one day and they’re just an expert at every domain of leadership, right? I wish that were the case.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, yes. Well, you brought it down to nine specific areas. I won’t ask you to give us all nine, but can you tell us, is there one that’s more important than all of the nine?

Jeffrey Hull:
That’s a very difficult question because I think it would depend on the situation that the leader is facing. But I will, to simplify the framing, one way we did try to think about it was three levels of complexity. And you think about leadership these days in today’s disrupted world, it’s a very complex environment that every leader faces. Lots of change.

Eddie Turner:
Okay.

Jeffrey Hull:
artificial intelligence and all the globalization and the political spheres, very complex. But there are definitely three levels at which every leader needs to operate. The first is within themselves. You have to start with yourself, right? You have to know yourself. You have to look at your strengths. You have to look at what your development opportunities are as an individual. Secondly, you have to look around at the people you interact with.

your team, your subordinates, your board of directors, whoever is above, below, and around you. So the second level is your facing your others, the teams. And then finally, when you get to be a sophisticated leader at any level, you wanna start to think about the system. You wanna think about the organization and the broader impact. So we did frame the book into three levels, self, other, and system.

and then interspersed the nine domains. So there’s three in each of them.

Eddie Turner:
So is it meant to be an SOS on purpose, Jeff?

Jeffrey Hull:
Actually, now that you say that, that’s true.

Eddie Turner:
Hey, because I know for some leaders, where we are today with all of, as you mentioned, the complexity that we’re facing, it is truly an SOS. And I love, as you mentioned several times, the idea that you’ve taken all this research that exists in the public domain and it’s available, right? Knowledge is exponential these days, but how can we get the specific component that we need in the moment in time that we need it? And so you’ve

Jeffrey Hull:
Right?

Jeffrey Hull:
Right.

Eddie Turner:
You’ve brought it down to these three specific areas that leaders can challenge themselves and do it, or as you mentioned, be able to work with their coach and do this to be able to have a focused approach to their leadership development.

Jeffrey Hull:
That’s right.

Jeffrey Hull:
Yes, absolutely. And the idea is to start where you are as a leader. And you asked me, you know, what is the most important of the nine? And if I was forced to answer the question, because I think they’re all important, but the very first step into this roadmap, we call conscious leadership. And consciousness is about awareness.

So starting point for all of us as leaders, whether it’s you or me or anyone else that aspires or works in a leadership domain, is to know ourselves. And so seeing yourself clearly is always the place to start. And that means your willingness to receive some feedback, whether it’s through an assessment or through colleagues or through a coach.

but getting some feedback so that you can understand your strengths and maybe your, what we call shadows or your triggers or some of the things that are not quite so friendly about all of us. We all have them. We all have to become aware of them. We all have to look at ways we can be more present and more mindful. So conscious leadership is really the starting point. And then you’re.

You leap forward from there into authentic leadership and relational leadership and positive leadership and servant leadership and ultimately transformational leadership. And I’ll let you, we can decide what we key in on in this conversation.

Eddie Turner:
You know, this is my, this is why I invited you all, right? This is the area I’m so passionate about because there are so many aspects of leadership and to your point, it depends on who the leader is, where they’re leading, in terms of the organization that they’re leading, which country are they leading in? What is the demographics? So it’s so.

Jeffrey Hull:
Hahaha

Jeffrey Hull:
Right.

Eddie Turner:
dependent and it’s the idea that there’s only one way to do it, one way to be successful is wrong to make that conclusion. So it’s good to have this exposure to a full breadth of leadership principles, leadership concepts, leadership theory, and then see how they should be applied. And you expose the reader to that and then you show them what that looks like in practical application.

through the stories that you introduce the leaders to. Now, you also talk about the cost of not taking action. What does the, or how much does it cost organizations when they tolerate poor leadership?

Jeffrey Hull:
Right.

Jeffrey Hull:
Well, I think the statistics of engagement and burnout, lack of engagement and burnout. I’m not quite up on the latest McKinsey studies, but they haven’t gotten much better over the last couple of years. And burnout is at an all time high, engagement is at an all time low. And a lot of that, I mean, I hate to say it, but it really does trace back to the leaders effectiveness.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, sir.

Jeffrey Hull:
I mean, people look to their leaders to create the space, to create the tone, to create the culture that inspires, motivates, and has people have a desire to be engaged with them towards a goal. And there are, as you said, there is a lot of different ways to approach that. And what we do in our book is ask a leader

who’s starting to read the book to do a quick assessment of these nine capacities, these nine capabilities, and think about what their strengths are, because some leaders have a natural strength in some domains. But then to realize that there’s a lot more that they can grow, they can learn, and then maybe go through the entire book step by step, or just choose, you know, there have been clients of mine

Eddie Turner:
Thank you.

Jeffrey Hull:
who have looked at the nine domains and said to me, you know, Jeff, there’s a couple of things that jump out at me. Number one, I don’t really understand what you mean by positive leadership. And number two, I’m not sure I’m very good at shared leadership. So let’s talk about those two. And those are two of the chapters in the book. So we’ll focus in on positive leadership. What does that really mean?

and then we’ll focus in on shared leadership. What does that really mean and how can you apply that? So, you you don’t have to do all nine, but recognizing that in order to really increase the level of commitment, engagement, minimize the burnout of your team, it helps to really have an awareness of these different domains and how they could be put to use with your real life situation.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And in addition to what you talked about in the book and also in our conversation about engagement, you shared a staggering number with me that I want to highlight. Everything that you said, then you put a price tag on it. You said it’s costing $360 billion. And when we just think about how organizations are doing layoffs or taking other maneuvers to shore up the bottom line, if we did something about leadership, that

Jeffrey Hull:
you

Eddie Turner:
in and of itself would go a long way to showing off the bottom line because it would solve all the things that you just mentioned.

Jeffrey Hull:
Yeah, and I think it’s also safe to say that the emergence of artificial intelligence is going to create additional complexity for leaders to make decisions about how to elevate the human element that is really crucial for their success and to think about what could be replaced with artificial intelligence tools and

You know, those human beings that are still working in the real world, even with AI, they need to be led in a way that they are inspired, they’re connected, they’re engaged. And so even as we become more technological in our organizations, we are still going to have to create environments where human beings are creative and innovative. you know, your leaders are the ones that create that atmosphere.

If you want to get innovation, you’re going to need to be a good leader. If you want to have creativity, if you want to have transformation, if you want to be on the leading edge, your people are going to look to you as a leader to create that environment. So knowing these themes is going to be really important.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed. Now, you, as I mentioned earlier, aren’t just an academic. You are that person who is a professor at the prestigious Harvard University. And I forgot when you mentioned in Berlin and other places, New York University. But you also came out of the business world. So you saw what this looked like. You worked at places like Goldman Sachs and other prestigious firms. Can you tell us how

Jeffrey Hull:
Right.

Eddie Turner:
your unique lens of actually been in top corporations and now in top academia, how that really comes through to help leaders to understand the steps they need to take.

Jeffrey Hull:
Well, for me, my early corporate career was with Booz Allen & Hamilton, one of the big consulting firms. And when I was with them as a director of HR, I was very aware in early days of coaching these executives, whether it was the partners at Booz Allen or some of the senior executives at our clients, we worked at Citibank, we worked at Goldman, that, you know, they…

were brilliant. In many cases, they’re really, really smart, really, really successful, highly educated, but they struggled too with how to motivate people. They struggled with feedback because it’s sometimes painful to take feedback. you think of yourself as being a straight A student or going to Harvard Business School. And then all of a sudden you get a coach one day like Dr. Jeffrey Hull who says, well, maybe you’re not as good at this.

as you thought. It’s like humbling, right? And ironically, humility in our book is a part a big part of the chapter on servant leadership. And things like humility are actually really key to success. So, you know, what I learned early on in my corporate career was to be humble myself to not get too full of myself as a leader or as a coach.

Eddie Turner:
And then we’re crushed.

Jeffrey Hull:
but also to help my clients recognize that when they had some humility, they had some willingness to be transparent about their strengths and their opportunities, their growth opportunities. People are drawn to that, it’s magnetic. And all of a sudden, instead of being cocky or having all the answers, the people they’re leading are like, wow, I love you, you’re so human.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, yes.

Jeffrey Hull:
You’re so real. And that is a stepping stone into one of the chapters in the book, which is on servant leadership, being a servant of your people, stepping from behind, leading, as they say, from behind. It’s actually one of the most sophisticated of all the leadership capacity.

Eddie Turner:
So Jeff, that’s a far cry from what we learned in the 60s and 70s where you were told you had to be hard, tough, you know, completely different breed. They would call that something very different today. So, yes. Yes.

Jeffrey Hull:
Hahaha!

Jeffrey Hull:
But there’s a place for that too. So that’s the interesting thing. I don’t believe in throwing baby out with the bathwater. So if you have an emergency or you have an urgent situation or you have a pandemic, for example, you do need to be a strong, authoritative leader and there is a role for that. But that is, you’re making the point, Eddie, which is really crucial, which is if you…

If you are just one type, you will not be successful in today’s world. You need a variety, you need agility, you need to be able to choose based on the context.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, one of my favorite analogies comes from Daniel Goldman’s work, landmark article in Harvard Business Review, where he likened leadership to a club, set of golf clubs that depending on where you are, you’re going to pull up the right club for that part of the course. You’re just swinging the driver everywhere, being authoritative. That’s not going to work so well.

But to your point, little humility, a little putter, a little gentle. That’s what we need most of the time, right? When you get stuck in the sand trap, you got to block that sand wedge, right? So it’s having the appropriate range as a leader to know which one you should use when.

Jeffrey Hull:
I love that.

Jeffrey Hull:
Right, right, yeah.

Jeffrey Hull:
Right, absolutely.

Eddie Turner:
Fascinating. Well, I can’t let you get out of here. You are the executive director of the Institute of Coaching, a prestigious organization that many coaches look to for the latest and greatest insights to guide us in the work that we’re doing. Please just give us one morsel that you can share with us that we need to know about as we’re facing the end of the year.

Jeffrey Hull:
I mean, my favorite theme coming out of the book, the latest book with Margaret, is to think about sharing your leadership. So this is a sophisticated concept, but I like to lead this with people, which is transfer the I to we when you’re leading. Elevate everyone around you to be a leader with you.

We need to have more leaders in the organizations we work with. So rather than just the pinnacle leader at the top, think about if you’re a boss, ask yourself, am I leading alone or am I leading with others? And if I need to lead with others, how do I do that? How do I shift from?

I to we, elevating, empowering, growing. At the end of the day, we want to create as many leaders as possible because we need those talent. We need that talent in today’s world.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely beautiful. We appreciate that. Well, I’ve been talking to Dr. Jeffrey Hull, bestselling author of Flex and his new book, The Science of Leadership. He’s a part of the Harvard faculty that Stakers 50 named him one of the top 50 coaches in the world. And he is a member of Marshall Goldsmith’s esteemed 100 coaches. I neglected to mention that.

Jeffrey Hull:
I think that’s how I met you. we did that’s right.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, yes. Well, I think you and I knew each other before that. I met you at the Institute of Coaching’s conference in 2015 or 2016. We became Marshall Goldstein colleagues five years later. Yes. And then of course, we mentioned that you are the executive director of the prestigious Institute of Coaching and the CEO of Leadership. What’s the most important concept you want to

Jeffrey Hull:
Right?

Jeffrey Hull:
That’s right, that’s right.

Eddie Turner:
keeping a walk away from our conversation with today.

Jeffrey Hull:
Leadership is a journey of learning and growth like everything else in life. And there’s a lot of good science. It’s an art to be a good leader, but there is science, there is research, there is demonstrated evidence. And Margaret and I are trying to make that available.

Eddie Turner:
Fantastic. Is there a quote that you use or a short story that you use that helps you keep leading?

Jeffrey Hull:
My favorite mantra is the time to be present is when there’s no time to be present.

Eddie Turner:
I like that. I like that.

Jeffrey Hull:
I use that with my clients every day. The time to be focused is when there’s no time to be focused. Variations. But basically, if you feel rushed, that’s the time to take a deep breath, calm down, and refocus. Get present.

Eddie Turner:
That’s so true.

Eddie Turner:
Well, thank you for sharing that. And where could people learn more about you?

Jeffrey Hull:
Easily on LinkedIn, just put my name, Jeffrey Hull, or institutivecoaching.org, or thescienceofleadership.com, or jeffreyhull.com. So, a bunch of places.

Eddie Turner:
Fantastic. We’ll be sure to put that in the show notes. Thank you again for your time, for your wisdom and knowledge that you’re sharing into the world. I appreciate you. And I know that the millions of cultures around the world and leaders appreciate all the great work that you’re doing.

Jeffrey Hull:
Okay.

Jeffrey Hull:
Thank you, Eddie. It’s great to think back and realize that we’ve been friends for many years. I wish you all the best with your podcast, with your writing, with your coaching, and it’s been great fun.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, ladies and gentlemen. I’m Eddie Turner reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on or take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 169 | Jeffrey Hull, Ph.D. | The Science of Leadership appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Leading With a Smile

Episode Summary

What can a board-certified dental aesthetics expert teach us about leadership? Discover the answer in this inspiring episode of Keep Leading!® podcast, as host Eddie Turner interviews Dr. Michael Landry, owner of Consultants in Dental Aesthetics and a nationally recognized leader in his field.

Dr. Landry offers a unique perspective on leadership, having built a successful practice while earning fellowships in seven prestigious dental academies. From managing complex cases to lecturing across the country on innovative dental technology, he knows what it takes to lead with both precision and compassion.

In this conversation, you’ll see how Dr. Landry’s approach to patient care—especially his passion for diagnosing and treating the often-overlooked epidemic of sleep apnea—reflects the qualities of outstanding leadership: noticing what others miss, advocating for those in need, and having the courage to tackle problems that could literally save lives.

Whether you’re leading a team, building a practice, or serving your community, Dr. Landry’s insights on excellence, continuous learning, and maintaining work-life balance will inspire you to lead with both skill and compassion.

Keep Leading!® Live

Video Short

Dr. Landry has lectured nationally on CEREC restorations, the use of CAT Scans in dentistry, treating patients with hemophilia, 3D printing, digital scanning, 3D designing, and practice management. Dr. Landry also has a passion for treating patients with sleep apnea. “Just as many people have sleep apnea as diabetes and asthma, but sleep apnea often goes undiagnosed. Currently, only 10% of those with sleep apnea have been diagnosed. If left untreated, sleep apnea can shorten your life by 7 years. We can use oral devices instead of CPAP to treat this disease.”

Dr. Landry was born in Orange, Texas, and attended Lamar University and the University of Texas Health Science Center in San Antonio. He is married to his wife, Mary Ann, and together they have four grown children. He attends Prince of Peace Catholic Church, where he serves as an Acolyte. In his spare time, Dr. Landry can often be found enjoying some time outdoors while golfing or fishing.

Website
https://www.houstonsmilespa.com

Other Website
https://www.hsapnea.com

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ConsultantsinDentalAesthetics

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/consultantsindentalaesthetics/

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
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Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
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Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie:
Hello everyone.
Welcome to the Keep Leading podcast.
Keep Leading podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights.
I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator.
I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speaking.
Today we are streaming live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube.
Feel free to hit that share button so that your friends can join our conversation or have access to the recording later on when the session concludes.
And if they should miss it here on social media, this session will be available wherever you download podcasts.
If you have questions, feel free to ask your questions live during our session, or certainly I encourage you to follow my guest on social media, uh, on LinkedIn.
You will want to stay connected to this expert.
You will also want to visit his website, which I’m going to mention several times because it’s very important that you go to HoustonSleepSpa.com.
What if I told you that there is a silent epidemic that is affecting as many people as diabetes and asthma, but 90% of the sufferers don’t even know they have it?
Well, because of that, that prevalence and its impact on people and their ability to show up as the leader that they like to show up as, I have brought in an expert who I highly respect, and I respect so much, he helps me.
I’ve brought in Dr. Michael Landry.
Dr. Michael Landry is a board certified diplomat in aesthetics and sleep dentistry, and the founder of Consultants in Dental Aesthetics right here in Houston, Texas.
And he’s going to talk to us today about dentistry and, uh, sleep apnea.
He has been a pioneer and groundbreaking alternatives to CPAP therapy, and he speaks and lectures across the country.
He’s got about 50 letters after his name and several, uh, fellowships and diplomats, and so I can’t wait to share his expertise.
And I will tell you as an aside, I affectionately refer to him as the man that either saved my marriage or saved my life. Because of my, I didn’t know I had sleep apnea. Because of that and my snoring, my wife was either going to end up divorcing me or smothering me to death with the pillow. But I’m happy to say that we’re, I’m still alive. We’re happily still married and still madly in love and both getting a good night’s sleep as a result.
So, That’s great. Dr. Landry, thank you and welcome to the Keep Leading podcast.

Dr. Landry:
Absolutely, it is my pleasure to be here, you know.
You’re absolutely right.
Sleep apnea is the most underdiagnosed epidemic that we have in our country.
And as you alluded to, 90% of the people that have sleep apnea have not been diagnosed.
There’s as many people that have sleep apnea as there are that have diabetes and asthma, a huge number of people.
And most of those have been diagnosed, they know something’s going on.
So many people, like yourself, I just snore.
I get tired in the afternoon.
I wake up with a headache in the morning.
My wife and I sleep in separate bedrooms. We haven’t slept in the same bedroom in years.
And many people aren’t willing to want to try CPAP.
CPAP works, it works great, but many people are unable to wear it.
So many people say, hey, I can’t wear it.
I’m not going to wear CPAP, I’m not going to do that.
Well, there’s many other alternatives.
We have oral appliances, mandibular advancement devices, is a fancy name for those.
Uh, there’s also Inspire, which is a surgically implanted implant that goes into your chest and helps to keep your airway open at night.
So there’s many ways to treat sleep apnea that people just aren’t aware of.

Eddie:
Now, you mentioned something there that I want to underline.
What is the indicator that a person has sleep apnea?

Dr. Landry:
Well, there’s several comorbidities that go along with it.
We have a particular acronym, it’s called STOP BANG.
S for snore.
T for tired.
O for obstruct.
Does someone has tell you that you stop breathing at night?
P for pressure, high blood pressure.
B for BMI.
A for age.
N for neck size, and G for gender.
And if you’re a male with a 16 and a half inch neck, over the age of 50, with a BMI of two, you snore, then those five put you at high risk.
If you answer three of those questions, it puts you at high risk for sleep apnea.

Eddie:
Okay, good to know.
And, uh, even some technology has been introduced where people wear, for example, an Apple Watch.
You have the ability to set your Apple Watch to help you detect that.
So if somebody isn’t, uh, right, telling you that you’re snoring too much, uh, as you said, don’t, because I did dismiss it and just think, oh, I’m just tired… I work a lot of hours, I stay up late.
It actually could be the first indicator that you are suffering from sleep apnea.
But I actually learned it not from somebody I would have thought I would have learned it from, but from you, my dentist.
So as a dentist, what was the indicator that I was suffering from sleep apnea?

Dr. Landry:
Well, you’re male, you’re over the age of 50, your neck is bigger than 16, and you have high blood pressure, right?

Eddie:
Mhm.

Dr. Landry:
So there you go.
There’s there’s four of them right there.
And I get that in your medical history.
The dentist gets that in your medical history. Maybe not neck size, but you can look at someone and you can tell is their neck size bigger or not.
Do they have a, you know, most all of us Americans nowadays have an elevated BMI.
And that’s how I call that elevated BMI. We didn’t say that we’re fat, but we have an elevated BMI. If you have a BMI that’s over 30, then you hit that group.

Eddie:
And you noticed something in in my bite.

Dr. Landry:
That’s right.
Part of it is that people that have sleep apnea also grind their teeth because when they go apnic at night and they stop exchanging air, they don’t stop breathing.
They still expand their chest, contract their diaphragm, do all the things that you would normally do, but no air goes through.
You’re just like snoring and it just stops. Dead quiet.
And that’s when you’re obstructed.
And during that time, then your oxygen level starts to go down, your CO2 level starts to go up, and your brain says, excuse me, Eddie, we’re dying.
So what do your body do when you think it’s dying?
It squirts out some epinephrin, the adrenaline, the fighter flight hormone.
And that epinephrin causes you to clench your teeth together, grind your teeth around, because that brings your bottom jaw up and forward and opens up your airway.
So for someone who grinds their teeth, that’s another indicator that your dentist is going to talk to you about.
Hey, you grind your teeth.
They said, no, I don’t grind my teeth.
Well, yeah, the flat spots on your teeth indicate you grind your teeth.
And there’s another thing that we also notice that’s called a scalloped tongue.
The edges of the tongue, they kind of go round and round because they’re close to the teeth because the tongue is squishing out against the teeth all the time.

Eddie:
Yes, so you pointed out my grinding that you noticed, and you combine obviously I was, uh, overweight, uh, still overweight, but, uh, more so at the time.
And that, uh, was and and you started to, uh, ask me about that, then I, I said, yeah, you know, I do grind my teeth at night and yeah, I do kind of find myself waking up grasping for air.
And so that was the indicator and you sent me on my way and getting on the sleep, uh, apnea, uh, path, uh, has been a tremendous help for me.
So I just want to highlight that for leaders that obviously that if we’re not able to get a good night’s rest, that clearly has an ability on how we show up as a leader.
And so getting the assistance from an expert like Dr. Landry, uh, can go a long way to helping us be the leaders that we want to be.

Dr. Landry:
Yes. Sleep is so critical in our lives.
In fact, if someone has been sleep deprived for 24 hours, they are inebriated or they are disabled enough to be equal to someone who has a 0.8% alcohol blood level, 0.08% alcohol blood level.
How about that? So next time, next time you go to the ER, ask your doctor, hey, how long has it been since you slept?
He says, oh, it’s been about 36 hours, say, give me somebody else.
I don’t want the drunk guy.
And when you talk about leaders, you know, if you’re chairing a meeting and you haven’t slept the night before, then you’re one of the drunk guys up there.
You’re not going to think as good, you’re not going to act as good.

Eddie:
That’s a staggering statistic, Dr. Landry.
So you’re saying, even if I’m a person who is sober, I don’t drink at all, if I am showing up to work and haven’t slept well in 24 hours, 36 hours, I’m as in, I am as inebriated or as ineffective as a person who’s so inebriated that their blood alcohol level is at 0.8.

Dr. Landry:
That’s right. 0.08. 0.08, sorry…
And that’s the same thing that makes you legally drunk.
Yes, sir. And it’s it’s not like you’re staggering and slurring your speech, but it’s your mind processes.
The things that’s so important for leaders to have that mind going all the time, to be creative, to have that futuristic visionary type thinking.

Eddie:
Thank you for sharing that.
That certainly underscores the need to not only get the adequate number of hours of sleep per night, but the quality.
And that is certainly something that we can do if we have the right sleeping, uh, aids, uh, getting to be sleep apnea, uh, treatment.

Dr. Landry:
Right. Exactly.

Eddie:
Now, if I am not, because you’re you’re a dentist, but got into this area of of sleep. Uh-huh. How did that take place?

Dr. Landry:
Well, you know, that’s another thing that we haven’t discussed, talked about that is things that happen from having sleep apnea, comorbidities as we call them.
And that I have a history of Alzheimer’s in my family.
My grandmother died of Alzheimer’s, my father died of Alzheimer’s.
I’ve been tested.
I have the APO4 gene for Alzheimer’s.
I have a 75% chance of getting Alzheimer’s.
That’s why it’s 70 years of age. I’m still working and I plan on working the rest of my life because I want to keep thinking all the time because as soon as I stop thinking, I will stop thinking.
During sleep, our our conversation right now is going to a place in your brain called the hippocampus.
Hippocampus, that’s your short-term memory.
At night, during NREM two stages of sleep, that information is uploaded from the hippocampus to the cortex.
It goes from short-term to long-term.
If you don’t get that quality sleep, then you don’t get that memory consolidation occurring.
And so it leads to short-term memory loss.
So that’s what got me first involved in it and that I, uh, thought, I started looking at how can I keep from getting Alzheimer’s like my father, like my grandmother.
And that was one thing that popped up on my list and was talking about sleep and further investigation just led me into this pathway and it it’s been very rewarding for me because I have people tell me, you gave me back my life.
I didn’t realize what it was like to sleep.
In fact, I heard someone from that just this, uh, past week tell me that.

Eddie:
Beautiful.
And I can relate.
I mean, until you’ve gone through it, you don’t understand how how much you may have undervalued quality sleep.
And then when that is, that’s returned to you, it is a true gift and it is if new life has been breathed into you.

Dr. Landry:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Eddie:
Fantastic.
Now, if I’m not interested in being a Hollywood celebrity, is there a reason I should still be concerned about the quality of my smile?

Dr. Landry:
Oh, absolutely, Eddie.
You know, the first thing anybody sees when they look at you is their smile.
I mean, you’ve got a great smile.
You really do.
Come on, show me those teeth again.
There you go.
And it’s that’s the first, you know, the the key contact points we have with another human being are going to be the eyes and the smile.
That’s going to be the first thing you see.
And if you don’t have a smile that you’re proud of, then you’re not going to smile.
You’re going to give it to the lip thing like that.

Eddie:
Yes.

Dr. Landry:
I had tetracycline stains as a child up until adulthood.
And as a result, my smile and my pictures growing up was always just like that. No teeth.
After I got veneers placed on my teeth and I got my real teeth in my head, I was on on a trip with my brothers.
We were riding motorcycles up to four corners to stand on the spot.
And we had these little bitty cameras.
It was before the days of cell phones.
We had cell phones, they didn’t take pictures.
And we’re looking at these little cameras and you blow up the picture on the back and you can see what the picture that you took, these little digital cameras.
And I started noticing this thing on my face I had never seen before.
It was this horizontal white line.
I’d never seen that before.
It was my smile. It was my teeth.
I was showing teeth.
Showing teeth when I smiled.
And to me that that was a big moment in my life.
And it makes a difference in how you come across.

Eddie:
Absolutely.

Dr. Landry:
It it gives you that confidence level because when someone’s always, you know, talking to you like this or, you know, like that, you just don’t have as the connection with them.
You don’t have as much confidence in them.
I mean, if you’re in sales, gosh, in sales, it’s smile.
If you’re in leadership, what’s it about?
It’s your smile because you’re going to communicate more with the people that work for you through your smile than you are with your frown.

Eddie:
Excellent.
And you highlight this a lot in your book. So the idea that, hey, you only need to worry about your smile if you’re trying to be the next great, uh, actor in Hollywood is, uh, not not true.
It it matters on every everyday level in whatever profession we’re in, how we are perceived as a leader is directly connected with the quality of our smile and our teeth.

Dr. Landry:
Absolutely.

Eddie:
So if someone’s listening to us and they’ve had challenges that perhaps no other dentist could could resolve, and they they’re listening and thinking, boy, I’d like to have a better smile, but I’m told there’s no help for me. What do you say to that?

Dr. Landry:
Come see me and we’ll talk.
I I I’ve had lots of people that have come to me and they said that, yeah, the dentist said I couldn’t have implants.
They said dentist said I couldn’t have veneers.
Yeah, the dentist said I couldn’t have crowns.
The dentist that said that just didn’t have the confidence level in themselves, didn’t have the expertise.
They weren’t able to perform the procedures that were required to give that patient the result that they wanted.
That’s why I’ve I’ve studied so much in my life.
I’ve learned so many things that if if you don’t, I’ll back up a little bit.
In dentistry, you have to be a continual student of dentistry.
There is nothing, not one single thing that I still do the same now that I did when I was in dental school.
It’s all changed.
I’ve been doing this for 44 years, so you can imagine there’s been a lot of things that have changed.
And when something comes out, you have to have that ability to discern which is good and which is bad, which is going to be effective.
And sometimes it’s, uh, simply, can we? Is is that the right thing to do? Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should.
And there’s a lot of things that come through dentistry are in that category.
So you have to evaluate and is it going to give us longevity? Is it going to give us beauty? Is it going to give us function? Is it going to give us all the things that we need or is it just new technology?

Eddie:
Yes, indeed.
And you are a continuous learner and you continue to enhance the quality of offerings you provide for patients because of that.
And when I went to your office, you shared with me some sophisticated technology that you’re using in terms of 3D and, uh, and how you what something that normally would have would have had to been sent off someplace, you do it right there on the spot. Tell us about that.

Dr. Landry:
That’s right.
I’ve been using, uh, CAD CAM 3D technology since 2004 actually to make crowns in a single visit.
Uh, when you come in, we can, uh, prepare the tooth, we can scan it with an intraoral scanner.
We don’t put that yucky stuff in your mouth that makes you throw up and gag.
And then we can put that on the computer and then the computer and I can design a crown together.
We send that to a mill, kind of like a CNC machine in the office and takes a block of porcelain and it mills out everything except what that tooth looks like.
And then that tooth can then be cemented on the crown that day, which it helps in many ways and that it reduces post-operative sensitivity because when we put a temporary on and you go out and spend three weeks waiting for that permanent crown to come back in, and well that temporary is kind of leaking and you’re getting some of that oral bacteria up underneath the crown, which can lead to sensitivity.
As well as when the crown falls off because you ate something chewing sticky, you forgot, then you got to go back and get it glued in again.
We we get past all those.
Now, is that indicated for each and every restoration that I do in the mouth?
Absolutely not.
There’s certain times when I need to use a different material, one that I can’t use on a CAD CAM basis.
Uh, sometimes we actually use gold.
We still use gold sometimes on people’s back teeth because they they have such powerful, powerful bites that they can destroy anything else that we put in there.
So we have to go with that.
Uh, and and milling a block of gold to get a gold crown wouldn’t really be cost effective.
And someone that I’m taking and I’m doing, um, 10 crowns on all their teeth, I’m covering all the teeth.
That’s something I’m usually going to send to a lab.
I’m not going to do that in the office.
Could I? Yes, I could.
Should I? No, maybe I shouldn’t because just because you can, doesn’t mean that you should.
And if I could sit there in the with the patient in the chair for 10 hours to get that accomplished, would I really be serving the patient well?… Or if I can accomplish all that work in maybe four hours, wouldn’t that be better for them?
So it’s not just about me, it’s about the patient.
And that’s what we make is we have a patient-centric office.
It’s all about the patients.
It’s not about me.
It’s not about what hours I want to work.
We’re open Monday through Friday.
It’s we’re here to serve you.
And it’s about what your needs are, what your wants and your desires are.
And that’s why I’m going to tell you what all the possibilities are.
And and you may say that, you know, I’m not interested in making a smile over and I’ll say, well, let’s look at your smile.
Let’s talk about it.
Is there something that you ever stopped doing because you’re afraid to smile with your teeth?
And it it’s opening up those questions, finding out what those, you could call them emotional disabilities, reasons that a patient changes their functions because of their smile.
And they many times don’t think about that.

Eddie:
Indeed.
When we, it’s like a a beautiful woman who’s just gotten that new shiny engagement ring.
She all of a sudden starts to use that left hand a little bit more, right?

Dr. Landry:
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eddie:
Right-handed people become left-handed after a wedding ring. Absolutely.
So the same is true.
When you have a a nice smile because of having seen a great dentist like yourself, you want to show it off.
And it’s not even that you’re forcing yourself to.
You just love how you look and feel so much you can’t help but smile.

Dr. Landry:
Well, And it’s some sometimes a functional thing too, you know.
Uh, I had a patient once that quit going to her friend’s house to have dinner because she couldn’t chew.
Oh. She couldn’t chew when she went to her friend’s house.
Okay. And it wasn’t until I I asked her these questions, these leading type questions of, you know, what what do you think about this?
What do you think about that? Did that really come out?
And so for those patients, we can put implants in their mouth.
We can put implants to restore teeth again.
We can give you something to chew with so you can go to your friend’s house and have dinner without being embarrassed.

Eddie:
Again, another gift that you are able to return to someone through the quality work that you do.
Truly life enhancing and life changing.

Dr. Landry:
That’s what’s really cool.
That’s cool about dentistry really is is I get to do things like that for people.
People always think of the dentist, you’re the the pain giver, the the mean person.
No, it’s it’s I can I can give you back your life.

Eddie:
Yeah, you, uh, you do give a little bit of pain. Well, you know.
But you do it with a smile and you do it in an environment that is second to none.
So I want to highlight that right now.
What I’ve put on the screen, uh, those who are going to hear the audio podcast can’t see this, but I’ve got HoustonSmileSpa.com on the screen.
Those will see the video and who are with us live.
Uh, we’ve got a few people who’ve joined us from YouTube that I see.
Uh, that is able, they’re able to see this.
This is what your office looks like.
Now, sometimes you see a website and then you show up to the actual facility and it looks nothing like what you saw online.
Let me tell you folks, that is not the case.
This does not look like a dentist office.
This looks like, uh, just a stellar looks like the cover of Architectural Digest, quite frankly.

Dr. Landry:
Thank you. Thank you.

Eddie:
And that’s what it looks like when you go there.
And I can’t show you the pictures that I’ve taken of doing my visits, but when you step in here, it is truly a breath of fresh air and you will see that it truly looks and functions like a spa.
You owe it to yourself to go visit Dr. Landry and his team at Consultants in Dental Aesthetics.
Now, I’m very loyal to people who do services for me.
And I, when my wife found Dr. Landry’s office, she kept telling me, you need to go, you need to go.
I’m like, no, no, I like my guy.
And I did.
He’s an amazing dentist.
But I got over, I got too busy and I missed my window for appointments and I couldn’t get in with him.
And so, uh, it was at the end of the year and I wanted to get that last visit in.
And so I said, okay, I’m going to give Dr. Landry’s office a try.
I went and I I miss my good friend, but I’m never going back.
I love, I fell in love with Dr. Landry’s office, uh, from day one and you you’ll see why.
Now, here’s what we talk about.

Dr. Landry:
That’s our reception lounge.
We don’t call it a waiting room because we we don’t want you to spend time waiting in there…
We want to receive you.
There’s going to be someone who’s going to open the front door for you when you arrive and they’re going to open the front door for you when they leave.
And they’re going to seat you in the reception lounge.
They’re going to ask you, would you like a beverage?
You’re going to help you help you if there’s any paperwork that needs to be filled out electronically that hasn’t been done yet.
And they’re going to make you feel comfortable.
We’re going to welcome you into our home.

Eddie:
Indeed.
And people who know me know that I’m maniacal about quality and customer service.
And it’s intricately tied to leadership.
And so when we talk about Keep Leading, what we’re doing here on this show, this is a part of it and you are leading in a way no one else is doing in dentistry.
So your book is a category of one and you truly are a category of one.
And I just want to highlight something that you say here in your book that I showed that in the pictures, but here’s here’s what you say and I just I have to read this verbatim.
Our practice is highly patient-centric. And I just love that phrase.
Every detail of patient’s experiences has been designed and refined.
The difference in our practice is evident at your first visit.
When you walk through our front doors, you don’t enter a waiting room, as you just said.
It’s a comfortable reception lounge.
Our front office people are not front desk, quote unquote. They are concierges.
We offer silver tray service where you can have champagne or mimosa. You can choose a beer, a glass of red or white wine, or water.
We have a full service coffee bar if you’d like a latte.
Most importantly, we serve you.
And another point that you make here finally that I want to highlight is what is a category of one dental practice?
It’s a dental practice that values the power of distinction versus the cost of blending in.
It’s one that goes above and beyond for its patients, creating an environment that’s difficult if not impossible for others to duplicate.
This distinction doesn’t just apply to our physical building, it’s also found in how we treat our patients and the services we provide.
It doesn’t get any better than that.
And I’m here to tell people this isn’t just something you wrote.
I’ve experienced it and through countless visits, it hasn’t changed.
Sometimes something is great the first time and you go back and like, oh, it’s that has not been the case.
And I highlight this because again, this is important to leadership. The experience, how you make people feel when they’re in your presence and when they leave is the hallmark of a great leader.
You are leading, Dr. Landry.
And I did some work, uh, for years in in what’s called the experience economy.
And this is work by Joe Pine and and and Jim Gilmore and they they highlighted the best in class organizations that were separating themselves not on cost.
These organizations say, hey, if you want a cheap cup of coffee, there’s McDonald’s, there’s a couple other places.
But if you want a premium cup of coffee, right?
You’re going to go to Starbucks.
Well, I’m here to tell you folks, be it that you want a great comfortable stay at a hotel and you chose, hey, there’s some places that if I want to save a couple bucks, I can go to my Holiday Inns or whatever they may be.
But if I want a premier experience, I’m going to go to maybe the Ritz Carlton.
Dr. Landry and his team have taken the Ritz Carlton experience and placed it in dentistry.
Look at where he’s sitting right now.
Does that look like a dentist office?
So, I just wanted to highlight that.

Dr. Landry:
Yeah, that’s our greeter station behind us.
You are you’re greeted to the front door.
There is no one answering the phone.
You are the most important person that’s in front of that.
We have all that stuff in the back.
We don’t we don’t need people answering the phone out in public.
It’s it’s important that your experience is the most important thing that’s going on in our lives at that time.
And that’s what we want you to have.
It’s, you know, like you mentioned the Ritz Carlton, the holiday, you use that analogy all the time.
Both will give you a bed and a roof over your head, but one will give you an experience and the other one won’t give you that same experience.
And both are okay.
You choose where you want to go to.
If you choose to come to Consultants Dental Aesthetics, we’re going to treat you as the most valued customer we have each and every time that you’re here and the whole time that you’re here.

Eddie:
Outstanding.
Dr. Landry, we’ve had a we’ve covered a lot, covered a lot of ground in this discussion.
There’s still a lot of things I haven’t asked you that I want to ask you….
Uh, but there’s just one last item I want to get to.
You’re a man of, uh, not just a businessman and a phenomenal businessman.
You’re also a man who loves his family and it’s evident in what you do and and and and you’re a man of faith.
And you believe in giving back to the community.
Can you tell us about your free dentistry for a day program and the impact that’s had in our Houston community?

Dr. Landry:
Absolutely.
It’s just we for many years we were aligned with a, uh, 501c3 that was called, uh, Dentistry from the Heart.
It was first developed in Florida.
And during the COVID days that kind of faded out, went away.
And we had done, oh gosh, seven or eight free days of dentistry.
We open up our office.
We get, oh gosh, we’ve had, uh, seven or eight dentists and four or five hygienists and we have seen 197 people in one day.
Wow. And we have given away $160,000 dentistry in one day.
Well, after the COVID time, we had to resurrect that.
So we came up with our own called Gift of Dentistry.
The acronym being God.
And we have a cornerstone in front of our building that says, to those that much is given, much is expected.
And I want to give back as much as I can.
So we have an annual day every year that we’ve opened up our office.
We have 13 treatment rooms and we have all of them full the whole time.
And we have oral surgeons, we have, uh, hygienists, we have general dentists.
We’re doing fillings, extractions, and cleanings.
All you have to do to qualify is be 18 years old and have some sort of government ID so we can prove who you are and we’re going to take care of you that day.
It’s to me one of the most funnest days that there is because it’s it’s not a me come in and diagnose something and tell you, okay, it’s going to be this much.
It’s just what do I need to do for you today?
Okay, let’s do it.
Let’s just do it.

Eddie:
What a gift.
You truly are a phenomenal man in so many ways and that’s why I wanted to highlight you today, Dr. Landry.
Thank you. Please tell us the most important concept that we discussed you want people to take away from our conversation today.

Dr. Landry:
Well, before I get to that, I got to give credit to one other person in my world and that’s my wife.
Okay. My wife used to be the director of inflight training for Continental Airlines and what she did was she brought business first class into our dental practice.
She’s been the visionary for this.
She helped me design this building.
She the interiors are all her.
She’s the one that does the training for the patient care.
She has this phrase called we’re either green and growing or we’re ripe and rotten.
And so she is the person that is behind all of this and she she’s just fabulous.
I’ve got to give her credit for that because she truly deserves it.
But probably the most important thing is that there’s people that have made dentistry a commodity.
They think that you can get the same thing at this place, at this place, and this place, and this place.
And it’s simply not true.
Maybe there’s three of those places where you can get something that’s similar, but what you get when you come to Consultants Dental Aesthetics is a totally different experience.
It’s not about what you do for people, it’s about how you make people feel.
What do they remember when they’re gone?
It’s how you made them feel.
And we’re going to make you feel like you’re the most important person there and that you are treated fairly, that you’re treated well, and that you’re treated with the utmost respect.

Eddie:
And I can, uh, fully affirm all of those statements. Thank you.
Is there a quote or a life lesson that you use that helps you to keep leading?

Dr. Landry:
God gave me a gift.
He gave me influence over so many people in this world and my job for him is to use that influence to help every person that I encounter each and every day to help them be the very best version of themselves.

Eddie:
Excellent.
Thank you, Dr. Landry.
And I want to tell people again how to reach you at HoustonSleepSpa.com.

Dr. Landry:
No, it’s HoustonSmile, HoustonSmileSpa.com.
Oh, I’m sorry.
Yes, thank you for correcting me.
HoustonSmileSpa.com.
And then we have another website that’s called HSApnea.com.
That’s the sleep side of the office.

Eddie:
And HSApnea.com.

Dr. Landry:
That’s right. Thank you.
And we’ll be sure to put that in the show notes so that people can click on that from

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 168 | Dr. Michael Landry | Leading With a Smile appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Make Friends with Your Impostor

Episode Summary

Listen to our live episode of the Keep Leading!® Podcast, hosted by Eddie Turner, as he welcomes Daphne Dickopf for an inspiring conversation explaining how to “Make Friends with Your Impostor.” This isn’t just another conversation—it’s your exclusive invitation to gain insights and strategies.

✅ Break through self-doubt

✅ Reframe your inner critic

✅ Harness impostor feelings as fuel for growth

Discover practical strategies to unleash your hidden potential and transform the inner critic into an inner ally. Don’t miss this empowering session! Tune in and learn how to Keep Leading!® with confidence!

Keep Leading!® Live

Bio
Daphne Dickopf is an ICF-certified executive coach, facilitator, and trainer, as well as the founder of a consulting, coaching, and training company that specializes in individual, team, and organizational development. With over 25 years of experience in leadership development, she has worked with clients worldwide to unlock their leadership potential, improve team performance, and encourage personal growth.

Daphne’s background in international management consulting, along with her own leadership experience, shapes her belief in each individual’s innate ability to find solutions and carve their own path. She holds a bachelor’s degree in International Marketing from Regent’s Business School in London and a dual MBA from ESSEC Business School in Paris and Mannheim Business School in Germany.

Website
https://www.daphnedickopf.com

Other Website
https://www.change-matters.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/daphne-dickopf/

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
https://bit.ly/4kPBcZo

Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
https://spoti.fi/4iOFzlB

Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie
Hello everyone. Welcome to this edition of the Keep Leading podcast. The Keep Leading podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional keynote speeches. We’re broadcasting on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. And we are just incredibly excited to talk about the topic we’re going to talk about today. I am with Daphne Dickopf. Daphne is a phenomenal executive coach and she’s added a new title to her repertoire and that is author. She’s the author of Make Friends with Your Imposter. And so I’ve invited her to be my guest today on the Keep Leading podcast so that we can all learn how to keep leading by making friends with our imposter. Daphne, welcome to the Keep Leading podcast.

Daphne
Thank you, Eddie. Thanks for having me. So excited.

Eddie
Well, I am excited to have you here. It’s been a little while since we’ve been together in person. Tell my listeners a little bit about your background.

Daphne
Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve been in the space of leadership development and organizational transformations for about 25 years or so. I first started out as a management consultant in strategic consulting and then went on to becoming a coach, trainer, and a leadership and executive coach. That’s what I’m doing now. I have my own company. And I coach and consult leaders worldwide, organizations worldwide. I usually am between Europe and the US. I live in the US, but my second home basically still is in Europe. So that’s always exciting to see also the cultural differences between companies and leaders.

Eddie
Well, you certainly have a well-rounded perspective and a first-hand one at that, right?

Daphne
Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Eddie
Excellent. And you bring that to your clients. And along the way, you were motivated to write this book about imposters. Tell us about that.

Daphne
Well, Eddie, first of all, I grew up in Switzerland, but then I left when I was about 14, so in the teenage years, forming years as you may say. And I always felt like I’m not fitting in, right? So wherever I was going, I didn’t fit in. And I then thought like, I’m just the odd one out. And I felt like an imposter. I was trying to fit in, was it the language or the accent or about cultural context I didn’t know. And very late in my career, I got to say, I realized, hey, this is actually a thing that happens to other people as well. It’s not just me. And when I started working together with more leaders also on personal development, I realized it’s happening all the time. It’s coming up in almost all my coachings. And while I was working on it myself for a long time, I realized I got to help people to work with their imposters and, you know, level it up for what it is and where they can be. And I don’t like repeating myself over and over again and I don’t feel like I want to be a teacher of this. So I thought, if I wrote a book, I could just give people a chapter of it and I didn’t have to repeat myself and they didn’t have to listen to me all the time.

Eddie
And now they can read your wisdom. That’s excellent.

Daphne
I don’t know about wisdom, but yes.

Eddie
A lot of people, now when you—well let’s say this. A lot of people have heard this phrase, but for those who may not have heard it before, can you define what we are talking about when we say the imposter syndrome?

Daphne
Yeah. Oh, that’s so important. Thanks, Eddie. Yes, it’s usually has three elements really. People who don’t feel like they’re enough, people who feel like they’re just about to be found out that they’re an imposter, a fraud, that they actually don’t belong where they are. And people who think they have to go get more, do more, be more and it’s never enough. And this is sort of a feeling you have within yourself all the time.

Eddie
Mhm. And where does those feelings come from?

Daphne
There’s some research suggesting it comes from our childhood. How you know, whether we’ve been always said, yeah, you’re not good enough or whether we’ve always said, oh, we expect more from you. Both both areas actually. So as a parent, if you’re listening as a parent, you have to do it wrong anyway. But to be honest with you, all my research and all my coaching sessions, I’m realizing it’s almost everybody. I think there’s only a very few talented, gifted and special individuals who are just so happy with themselves, so well-rounded that they don’t feel that or then they’re narcissist or psychopaths. They also don’t have it. But everybody else pretty much feels like an imposter at part of their lives or sometimes in their lives.

Eddie
So, it’s interesting to hear you say that. You’re saying almost everyone, unless they’re a narcissist, has these feelings of being an imposter.

Daphne
Yeah. And not just narcissist really. I know luckily I have a whole bunch of people around me, friends and family members who don’t feel like that. So I could always test it with them. Is it just me? Do you feel this as well? Is this like global or how does it relate to others? But it is pretty much and it depends, right? So whether you have it on a daily basis, whether it just comes up when you’re doing really difficult things. And so I think that’s where most of us have it. When you’re attempting something new, something slightly scary for the first time, that’s when we feel, do I really have it? I think other people are doing it better. Me writing a book, right? I mean, there’s authors out there who’ve written about this. So who am I to write this book? That’s when it comes up. And then when you calm yourself down again and realize, hey, you have something to offer. You are unique and you can do the hard things. That’s when you’re growing from it and that’s where the beauty lies in it.

Eddie
All right. Well, walk us through what making friends with your imposter looks like.

Daphne
So, basically, making friends with your imposter is about accepting it. Right? The first step is you’re realizing you sometimes have those feelings and you’re okay with it and you know you’re not alone and you don’t have to sit in the corner and wait until it’s over, right? But you can actually proactively do something about it. That’s pretty much what it is. And then there’s several strategies how to do that. But yeah.

Eddie
Please share one strategy how I can make friends with my imposter.

Daphne
Yeah, so basically let’s start at the very beginning. When you’ve accepted it that you’ve got it, then it’s very important to notice in your body and in your reactions when it’s happening, right? So imagine you’re just about to start a podcast, maybe with a new platform you never worked on and you’re like, oh, this might go wrong. I’m not really sure how to do this. Am I really good enough? Should I have asked somebody else who is more experienced than me to do this? Usually what we can—we can feel it somewhere in our body. Or definitely we have these negative thought patterns that come in. And when we realize that that happens often, we can start to recognize it and maybe pause just for a second. Ideally you can go really deep into all right, turning your mind around, but that comes later. First step really is, oh, I’m noticing this. All right. Is it going to derail? Is it going to take over? Is it going to go in a what I call “imposter hijack” or will I be able to steer how this is going to go?

Eddie
Well, what’s the difference between these feelings of being an imposter, a fraud that you’ve described there and a what some might call healthy sense of self-doubt or humility?

Daphne
Yeah. I think it’s—the difference might be very slim or gradual and depending where you are at, not so significant. The underlying factor is when you have a doubt like I can’t do it, but okay, but I can do it and it’s over too quickly and it doesn’t feel like it’s going to destroy you, then it’s maybe not imposter. But when you really feel—I feel it in my body, there’s fear coming up, heart racing, maybe sweaty palms, you know, everything that comes with stress and anxiety in the moment that you’re feeling it, then it’s pretty sure that you have what we’re calling “imposter feeling”. And by the way, that’s why I’m not calling it imposter syndrome as well because it’s not a medical diagnosis. It’s just something as I said, almost everybody’s going through and it’s nothing, not a condition that we cannot get away with or that we cannot deal with.

Eddie
Excellent. So we want to focus on the word choice there you’re saying and that when we talk about a syndrome then that’s medical and more clinical and by talking about imposter feelings, that takes it out of that realm.

Daphne
Yeah, or experience or emotions or voices that you hear. There’s a variety of things that you can call it as well. But let’s not call it a syndrome because it’s not.

Eddie
Okay. Well, you are focused on the idea that many people have these feelings of the imposter. Is there one group that’s affected more than another since you said so many are impacted by it?

Daphne
You know, there’s a lot of research done on psychology students, I guess, medical students because they’re an easy target I want to say to question. So we can see that those populations have it a lot. There is some research seeing if minority groups have it stronger and I recently had a conversation with a colleague of mine who said, you know, in my culture, it’s just not accepted to—you have no choice. It’s maybe some kind of a—well, are you privileged that you can actually even think about self-doubts? You know, we have back in the days she said, we just had to work. We couldn’t think whether we’re good enough about it or not. And so yes. There is also the question about, is it more women? So at the very beginning when the research was done, there were women in the focus, right? So Dr. Pauline Rose Clance who did the first—who coined the term “imposter phenomenon”, she thought it was just women because she had been working with highly successful academic women and she saw a lot of these same traits that she’s now that we’re now calling imposter phenomenon or syndrome. But later on, there’s been a lot of research. You know, it’s actually everyone. I would say when I talk with leaders, no matter what sexual preference, orientation, skin color, hair length, I can hear it every time, right? As I said, there’s these few exceptions who don’t have it, but other than that, you can see it in any shape, form or color.

Eddie
All right. Well, thank you for giving us that research and that perspective of what that looks like because that can be something that people worry about: Am I more predisposed to it because of my gender or my background or profession even? So it’s very, very nice to have that clarity.

Daphne
Even profession.

Eddie
In your book, you give several examples and you provide models from other great authors who’ve really laid this out. Is there a nice framework of your own that you’d like to share with us at this time?

Daphne
Yes, so thank you, Eddie. So I came up after all the research I’ve done on other frameworks and also the work that I’ve done with the leaders that I work with on a daily basis. A really straightforward—I call it the imposter strategy framework and what it is, it’s—I love matrices. So it’s a matrix. It has four quadrants and it distinguishes between whether something is short-term or long-term in terms of the effect and whether something is internal or external, right? So within myself or do I do it with others? And so I call these—I have four names for these four quadrants. So the first quadrant I call “first aid.” It’s got to do with quick things. It’s just for me. I realize the imposter is coming up, some feelings are here. What can I do to mitigate or to turn myself around, right? Something like tracking my compliments that I’ve gotten before and looking at them, doing a mindfulness moment or do something physical like do a few push-ups or when you’re in the middle of a meeting and it’s getting rough, saying “Can we do a bio break?” Things like that.

Eddie
So you’re jumping in the middle meeting, jumping dropping down doing push-ups?

Daphne
Yeah, right?

Eddie
You’re tough. You’re tough. You’re making me feel a little bit sorry for myself right now. I got to change my afternoon activities.

Daphne
Not that I can do many push-ups, but that’s just between you and me.

Eddie
No, the fact you’re doing any, that’s impressive.

Daphne
So that’s that whole quick remedy, that’s first aid. You can do it. It’s quick, it’s subtle. People might not notice it. It can do with breathing techniques, things like that. But then more long-term, you really want to cultivate your resilience, right? You want to build up that resilience that when those imposter feelings come, they don’t really shake you anymore. And those are things like you look at failures, you look at small wins. It’s all about tracking them and making the best of it. Learn from your failures. It’s also about just looking at the challenges and challenge yourself to go for the challenge, right? Can I do that? Is it too too hard for me? just slightly too hard. All right, I will do it. And things like that. Really important to just build up that resilience. Go with gratitude, maybe look at the inner team. So there’s many, many tools that you can use there, but it’s all about making sure you’re strong when it hits you next time that you’re not expecting it. Now then let’s look at the other side of the matrix where we’re looking a bit more on external things that we can do as well. So, I mean, sorry, long-term things and for example—the long-term and sort of external, but you have to internalize it, that’s why I just jumped over my words—is the whole vision aspect. So once you have a vision set up for yourself, you know where you’re going, you have goals, you’re aligning every step, those challenges don’t feel so hard anymore. You have a purpose. You know where you’re going and you can set up each and every imposter moment to get more challenge and to really get one step further on your vision. Be it with, you know, like if you have a vision board, you can then say, “Okay, I’ve done this.” If you’re tracking your goals, however you’re tracking this. And it’s all about what are my expectations and what am I doing? Do I have to be winning it this first time? Can I maybe learn from my experiences? If you look at this as a lifelong learning exercise, you’re always going to learn something and you’re going to grow and you’re eventually going closer and closer to your vision, but you have to have that. If you’re just doing it day by day, you don’t know if you’re going to achieve it. And then last but not least, the external support system. So who are your people? Who has got your back when you’re feeling down? Who are mentors or role models you want to look up or connect with? Maybe external support system could also be a psychiatrist, psychologist, a coach, a mentor, a guide, you name it, a teacher if you’re looking at kids because believe it or not, kids these days deal with a lot of imposter feelings. So those four quadrants: first aid, resilience, vision, and support system—when you have it all in and set up, I think you’re really good to go and imposter feelings are just like a little nudge to work on yourself and nothing more.

Eddie
Thank you. What’s been your relationship with imposter feelings?

Daphne
Yeah. As far as I can remember, I’ve always felt out of place, always felt like I’m not good enough, I’m not smart enough, I’m not articulate enough. And so I’ve been working on it myself and I realized two things. One of it is when you believe in yourself and you know you got the tools to work on yourself, it’s easier and also if you’re in this in a surrounding that appreciates what you’re doing. If you’re in the right setting, then it’s also easier to see, hey, I’m actually doing great work and people do get something from me and I’m not a total loser and I’m not a total fraud. So the setting and the self-belief is really important.

Eddie
Thank you. And if someone is listening to us or watching this broadcast and they’re thinking, “I’m not good enough for this job, this relationship, or for this level of success,” what advice would you like for them to hear from you right now?

Daphne
Yeah. I mean, once you open up about this and confide in someone, you’ll realize you’re not alone. And the more people you ask about these kind of feelings, the more often you’ll hear, “Oh, yeah, totally been there. I’ve done that.” And then it’s more a journey together. So find a few people who you can really trust, confide in them and get them to push you. Get them to be your coaches, your sponsors, your fan crew, right? And then you will see it’s easier when you’re not alone and you’re not alone in this.

Eddie
Yes, apparently especially based on the numbers that you’ve shared. Knowing that you’re not alone is often a nice source of motivation for people to get past those stubborn, persistent feelings.

Daphne
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Eddie
Very nice. What’s the most important message you want to make sure that people take away from our conversation today?

Daphne
Yeah. You know, feeling like a fraud is not an excuse. It’s just a nudge for you to work on yourself and go embrace that and see what you can do with it because there’s so much good stuff out here, so we don’t need to be buried down and think we’re the only odd one out. We’re just one of many, many, many people who feel the same way.

Eddie
Great. Thank you. And you know, I always ask on the Keep Leading Podcast, what’s your favorite quote or favorite piece of leadership wisdom that you’ve heard that you use that helps you to keep leading?

Daphne
Yeah. It’s, “Luck comes to those who are prepared.”

Eddie
All right. Excellent. Thank you. And where can people learn more about you?

Daphne
Yeah, my website, www.daphnedickoff.com.

Eddie
Excellent. And for those who are listening to this on C-Suite Radio or wherever you download your podcast, Daphne is spelled D A P H N E D I C K O F F, daphnedickoff.com. Well, we look forward to reading your book. Thank you for the advanced copy you gave me and seeing the success that you have as you continue to impact people around the world so that they can keep leading.

Daphne
Thank you, Eddie. I appreciate it.

Eddie
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not a garment that we simply put on or take off. It must emanate from our core and be seen in everything that we do. So no matter what you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 167 | Daphne Dickopf | Make Friends with Your Impostor appeared first on Eddie Turner.

From Drift to Drive

Episode Summary

Join host Eddie Turner on the Keep Leading!® Podcast for an eye-opening conversation with Chris Robinson, author of the powerful new book “From Drift to Drive.”

FROM DRIFT TO DRIVE: When Success Becomes Your Biggest Enemy

Think you’ve “made it”? Think again. Success can be a silent killer of ambition, lulling high achievers into a dangerous state of cruise control. Chris Robinson exposes the hidden trap that’s sabotaging even the most accomplished leaders—and reveals how to break free.

In this must-listen episode, discover:

• The warning signs that you’re drifting instead of driving your success
• What success-induced complacency actually looks like (you might be shocked)
• A powerful mindset shift for leaders who’ve lost their edge
• Practical tools to lead yourself and your teams with renewed clarity and purpose

Keep Leading!® Live

Keep Leading!® Video Shorts

Website
https://www.chrisrobinsonspeaker.com/

Other Website
https://www.maxwellleadership.com/

Chris Robinson’s Book
https://drifttodrivebook.com/

Chris Robinson’s Assessment
https://drift2drivequiz.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/speakerchrisrobinson/

Leadership Quote
“Treat people like people and adults like adults.”

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
https://bit.ly/4kPBcZo

Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
https://spoti.fi/4iOFzlB

Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:

Hello everyone. Welcome to this live recording of the Keep Leading podcast. The Keep Leading podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with emerging and experienced leaders who want to have an exponential impact on the people, processes, and places where they have a purview. And I do that through the power of masterful coaching, facilitation, and keynote speeches. My goal is to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading.

Today, I am broadcasting on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. I would like to encourage you to join this conversation. Use the chat feature to ask a question. Share your reaction to what my esteemed guest will be saying today. Hit that share button so that your colleagues can have this in their feed and they can join us as well.

So, do you think you’ve made it? We want you to think again. Success can be a silent killer of ambition, lulling high achievers into a dangerous state of cruise control. My guest today, Chris Robinson, exposes the hidden trap that’s sabotaging even the most successful, highly accomplished leaders today. He reveals precisely how you can break free. He does that in his new book, *From Drift to Drive: A High Achiever’s Guide to Breaking the Chains of Complacency*.

Chris Robinson is the executive vice president of Maxwell Leadership and the author of *Drift to Drive*. Chris, welcome to Keep Leading.

Chris Robinson:

Hey, thank you so much, Eddie. I’m so excited to be here on with you today. I couldn’t be more excited. You know, I’ve had the opportunity to watch you online for years and I just love the work that you’re doing, the impact that you’re making, and just how you represent everything so well with excellence and just highly add value to people. So thank you. Truly an honor and privilege to be here with you today.

Eddie Turner:

Thank you, Chris. It’s been years since we’ve seen each other. I remember us meeting that first time with the National Speakers Association’s Influence Conference and I have been a fan of what you’ve been doing and the impact you’re having around the world is simply sensational. So what an honor to have you with us and to celebrate the launch of your new book.

So tell us a little bit about yourself for those who don’t know you and have seen what I’ve seen, let everybody know a little bit about yourself, please.

Chris Robinson:

Well, like you said, I’m the executive vice president of the Maxwell Leadership Certified Team. We’re currently the largest leadership speaker, coach, and training company on the planet. We’ve got over 58,000 coaches worldwide that have been certified through us. And I was a member of that program in its very first beginning. So I became one of the very first 700 to be certified back in 2011, utilized their tools and resources in order to build a business on my own. And then I was asked to come back as a teaching faculty member in 2016. And then 2020 is when they asked me to be the executive vice president of the organization. So I’ve been holding that position for the last five and a half years now. So it’s been an incredible journey from just a person that wanted to add value to people by watching, you know, VHS tapes of John Maxwell, applying those principles inside the workplace and then now getting to fly around the world with him and making an impact each and every single day.

Eddie Turner:

Fantastic. And the work that you’re doing, you talk about working closely with him, flying around the world with him, you know, it’s something I was actually going to ask you a little bit later, but I just have to ask you now since you mentioned it. What impact has it had on you to work with, for those who don’t know who he is, he’s simply an industry titan. What impact has that had on you?

Chris Robinson:

Well, it’s been a tremendous impact and I’d say that it really started, you know, in the basement of a church watching him on VHS. Oh wow. And that’s the beauty of this industry is that we don’t know who we’re impacting. Today, someone’s watching that may be sitting side by side with us one day, you know, a year from now, two years from now, five years from now. We don’t know. But I learned from a distance by watching him on VHS. I got into proximity by becoming part of the certified team. And then as I continued to grow and develop and add value to the organization, I got a chance to know him personally. And he’s been mentoring me personally since 2016 one-on-one. And so it’s had a tremendous impact on my life because out of a lot of speakers out there, a lot of authors, gurus, whatever the case may be, what I’ve learned from John is that the gap between who he is on stage and who he is in person are the closest that I’ve ever seen and I so aspire to be that same type of person because sometimes that, you know, you know, some great authors and like, oh my goodness, I can’t wait to meet them. I love their books and then you meet them and you’re like, I love their books. And so seeing John Maxwell live out the principles that he’s teaching and seeing that congruency on and off the stage has really had the greatest impact on me.

Eddie Turner:

That says a lot, Chris. That really says a lot because you and I know some authors and you’re right. I remember for many years like you, I just would know them from afar, but when you start getting into that space, you go, oh, right. Okay. Like you say, I like the books. Right. I like the books. That’s a good book. So what motivated you to write your own book now?

Chris Robinson:

Yeah, so this one was something that I to be honest with you, Eddie, I was had not had an intention to actually write this book. But I was actually visiting with Rory Vaden. Now, Rory Vaden is another industry giant and a great friend. And I was meeting with him and a couple other authors in one of his boot camps because I was really looking to see, hey, is Rory, does he offer something with brand builders that I could bring to the Maxwell organization? And as I sat through the first day, you know, he kept nudging. He says, Chris, I know there’s a book inside of you. I know that there’s one in there. What would you write on? And I kind of was resistant to it and I really wasn’t set in doing it. But they I played inside the playground. And I said, if you were to write a book, what would you write on? And initially, the thought was around underperformance and how to solve underperformance inside of organizations. And we dug a little bit deeper and kept digging and then we came up with truly the true killer of organizations and dreams, which is complacency. That’s the root cause of all underperformance.

And the next day, you know, we were questioning, well, once you find yourself in this place of complacency, what would you do to overcome it? So I was sitting on the bench waiting on an Uber and sure enough, boom, like a lightning strike, I began to just see all these different areas of my life where I had results and where I had got results and the seven-step framework just unfolded based upon my own experience. And so I go back in and I write the seven steps on the board and they’re like, that makes absolute sense. That’s the book. And so I went to work after that and began writing, began putting stories together, began researching, taking a deep dive into this thought of complacency. And six months later, the book is done and now we are in promotion of it, pre-sales for it and just really excited about how this is going to impact people’s lives.

Eddie Turner:

And tell us the launch date, please.

Chris Robinson:

Yeah, launch date is September 2nd. September 2nd, 2025, this book will be available on all major outlets.

Eddie Turner:

All right everybody. So September the 2nd, 2025. Mark your calendars or you can even head on over to Amazon and get your pre-ordering in right now since it’s out there. This is the book, *From Drift to Drive: A High Achiever’s Guide to Breaking the Chains of Complacency*. And as we said, Chris is a high-powered speaker who’s leading a global team of speakers and really having an impact with his message across the globe.

Now, Chris, the other thing, you use this word “complacency” and that’s one of the things that resonated with me the most because from an early age in my life, one of my mentors, he would always talk about this need to avoid complacency and have a sense of urgency. And that’s a mantra that I adopted. And so when I saw your book, I went and started reading through it. Thank you for the advanced copy. I went, wow…. Now you’ve patented this phrase, you trademarked this phrase, “success induced complacency.” That’s it. Yeah. And I read that and I went, oh. Tell us about that.

Chris Robinson:

Yeah, you know, when we really look at it, when we talk about because most people when they think about the word complacency, the most common phrase or thought that comes to mind is laziness or apathy. And it couldn’t be further from the truth. Exactly. So if you go back to the original meaning of the word complacency, it means careless security. Careless security. So it’s a place of comfort that we may have worked towards in the beginning, but now that we’ve arrived there, we’ve got the skill down, it’s pretty much automatic that we don’t go back and begin to really fine-tune those things. And so I redefined the phrase complacency or the word complacency in the book and I redefine it as a secret place of satisfactory success. A secret place of satisfactory success.

Now, all of us, we have these places in our life, whether it be in our marriage, whether it be in our relationships, in our business, in our health, we have these places where we go, oh, that’s good enough. I can just maintain it. But maintaining does not mean that you’re growing. And so if we have these secret places of satisfactory success, we’ve got to question those, we’ve got to sharpen those because often time they’re in places where we actually have a gift or we’re very skilled or we’re seemed or deemed to be very good at it. So if we can sharpen those areas where we’re secretly satisfied and we begin to move out of just lukewarm or average, oh my goodness, it gets very exciting at it. It gets very exciting.

Eddie Turner:

Yeah, and so when you mentioned that, this idea that it’s not laziness, it’s quite the opposite. I love your definition on that. And that’s a completely different perspective than I had. And so for people who are listening, what is the step that one needs to take if they realize that, hey, that’s me he’s talking about?

Chris Robinson:

Well, hey, that’s the first step. You have to be aware of the areas of your life that you’re complacent in. And what we did was we created a quiz for this called the Complacency Assessment Profile. And what it does, it’s about a three to five minute test that will give you a general idea of where you’re at with complacency in your life. But in addition to that, we give you action steps that you can take to begin to get those gears running again. So the first step is awareness, but then as you move into the framework of the book of now once I’ve identified it, where do I go? The first step is clarity because we cannot have what we cannot see and most of the times complacency happens in our life when our vision gets foggy. And so if we can get a clear picture of where we want to go and what we want to do, be and have, well then now you can really begin to start to make motion towards the direction you want to go.

Eddie Turner:

Alright, now I felt like it was a little Muhammad Ali there. I like what you said. We cannot have what we cannot see. You smash what he said, float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. You can’t hear what you can’t see. Yes. Yes, sir. I see what you did. I like it. I like it. No, that’s excellent.

So for those who will listen to and download the audio version of this show, I have on the screen, I’m displaying for those who are watching the live stream, the URL to get the assessment that Chris is referring to. He’s offering his readers. So it’s drift2drivequiz.com. Yeah. Drift, the number two, drivequiz.com. Excellent.

Now, the other thing I wanted to ask you is with this quiz, someone’s taking this quiz, once they’ve done the assessment, what would the next step be?

Chris Robinson:

Yeah, so what we do is there’s an action step guide that we give you right then and there to kind of address your needs. If you’re going through the seven-step framework, you know, the first step is clarity. It’s clarity and again, it’s getting crystal clear on what it is that you want because every time that you’ve been clear about what it is that you wanted, you got it every single time. The evidence of that is the shirt on your back, the watch on your wrist, the shoes on your feet. At some point in time you said, hey, I want that. You may not have had the time to get it, you may not have had the money to get it, but it was crystal clear and you were able to pull that into your life. So if you’re wanting to get promoted on the job, you got to be clear on it. If you’re wanting to start a business, you got to be clear on it.

The second step that we go into is called the gathering phase. And the gathering phase is when we begin to stack information and knowledge in order to go in the direction that we want to go. So this is a gathering of books, videos, audios, courses, conferences that we may attend and getting those all lined up and gathered to a place so that now you can begin to feast on the information and moving in the direction. But you can get hung up right here because a lot of people they love to gather, Eddie. They love what we call shelf help. You know, they’ve got all the books on the shelf, they’ve got all the audios on the shelf, they’ve got everything on there, but we got to move through that. We got to move to the next phase, which is filtering.

Now, this is important because in the past, our success was really dictated by the access to the information that we had access to, right? So it was years early 1900s. Hey, look, certain people weren’t allowed to learn how to read, you couldn’t get into colleges, things of that nature. Today, we have everything that we need, all access right here on our phones to all the information that we need. So the trick now isn’t about having access to information. It’s about filtering access to information.

And so it looks like this and maybe somebody watching, you know, you’re feeling a little bit overwhelmed going, why aren’t I moving towards my goals? It could be because you’re not filtering properly. You may be listening to a reading a book on one topic, listening to a video on another topic, listening, you know, going to get a course online on a different topic, going to a conference on a different topic and going, why aren’t I moving anywhere? You’re not filtering properly and layering your learning to all line up with where you want to go. And so if you do that, you know, now you can begin to move and consume content a lot faster.

You know, the next phase that we have that we go to is the guidance phase, which Eddie, you and I, I believe have done this really well by seeking out people that have gone beyond us and where we want to go and getting around those people in proximity. And so we want to have guides in our life in order to help us get to where we want to go, a mentor, a coach in order to help us go in that direction.

The fifth step is relationships. Relationships are critical. Again, how we met at NSA. What was I trying to do at that time? I was trying to get around like-minded people that were moving in the direction I wanted to go. You can be around a great group of people, highly successful people, but you can also be around a group of highly successful people that are not moving in a direction that you want to go. And so sometimes you can be around people, the right successful people, but it not serve the direction that you want to go because they’re not in alignment.

And then of course, the sixth step of the framework is action. You have to take action. You can be clear, you can gather, you can filter, you can have a mentor or a guide, you can have the right relationships, but if you don’t do anything, you’ll be in the exact same place.

And then the seventh step is evaluation. We have to take a look and honestly evaluate what it is that we’ve done so that we can now re-enter again. We re-enter the cycle again with a lot more clarity so that we can gather better, so we can filter better, so we can get guidance, so we can build better relationships, so we can take action again. That seven-step process help you get to where you want to go.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. So helping us understand how we get moving, getting in the gear with the next step is after the assessment, really applying the seven-step framework. And I like the emphasis you made both in the introduction when I asked you about Dr. Maxwell and following of the framework, you talked about proximity. And the power of proximity. How it moved you to where you are today and now how we can move others from drift to drive.

And proximity is powerful because some things are taught, but then some things are caught. And when you get in proximity of people, no matter how you get there, all right? I teach inside the book two ways to get in proximity of those who are doing what it is that you want to do. It’s either seek to serve or pay to play. Seek to serve or pay to play. And so sometimes you can reach out and you can serve your way into people’s lives and then sometimes, hey, you’ve got to make that investment in order to get inside the room to get some proximity and in that proximity, you see things that have not been written about, you see things that have not been talked about because you’re in the room. Proximity is powerful.

Eddie Turner:

Some things are caught, some things are taught. I love that. And thank you for sharing the two steps that work for people and coming from someone who’s had an experience on both sides of that. That makes so much sense, but I never thought about it and explaining it in that way. So again, you’re dropping a nice gem, a morsel that our audience can benefit from. Chris, I appreciate that.

So I am talking to Chris Robinson, the executive vice president of the Maxwell Leadership Entrepreneurial Solutions Group and the author of *From Drift to Drive*. We’re going to pause for just a moment here to acknowledge the sponsor of the Keep Leading podcast.

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All right, I am back with Mr. Chris Robinson, the executive vice president over at the Maxwell Leadership Group. We’re talking about his book, *From Drift to Drive* that will launch on September the 2nd. Let me try that again. There we go. *From Drift to Drive* that launches on September the 2nd, available now for pre-order. And you’ve shared some really nice concepts from the book already for us to think about, Chris.

And one of the the awarenesses I wanted to to tap into just a little bit is you told us why you wrote the book. But at what point did you realize that, hey, I’m seeing a pattern here because you went from leading like 18 people or something like that to like over 700 at one point now if I if I read that correctly.

Chris Robinson:

Yeah, correct.

Eddie Turner:

Yeah, what pattern did you see that allowed you to really tap into this and say, you know what? Here’s where I see people getting stuck.

Chris Robinson:

Right. Yeah. You know, when we take a look at the pattern, you know, now today, I think that I spend a lot more time around successful people. And that’s evolved over the years and so I’m always inside a room of just highly talented, incredible people. And, you know, I think the initial drive that we have is the pattern that I see is a success pattern. What we’re striving for is success. And then we achieve those things. You know, you get the house, you get the cars, you get the watches, you get you get all the stuff and don’t get me wrong. I love the stuff just like the next person, right? I’m looking for that comfort too. But what happens is now once you’ve achieved some success, you know, life becomes comfortable and I begin to see this drift and what’s happening is that people are wanting something greater than success.

And so what we want to do is what we found is that we want to go from success, which is about me, to significance, which is about we. And when you can make the get the jump from success to significance, that fulfillment gets ignited over and over again when you find out that, hey, this world, this planet, this life isn’t about just what I can obtain, but this life is really about others. And I’ve seen that happen over and over again when people have achieved great things and now what’s next? Because the the car didn’t feel the way that I thought it was going to feel after all this time. The house didn’t feel, didn’t do it. The this didn’t do it. Whatever you want to place in there, that’s usually never enough when it comes to material things, but that real fulfillment comes when you begin to shift your focus on helping others.

Eddie Turner:

Wow, well said. And when you talk about moving from success to significance, there’s nothing more significant than those you love, your family. You are a family man. And you got to just— and I don’t say this just to say it. You truly have a beautiful family. We’re going to share an image here for those who are watching the live stream of your beautiful family. There we go. Family—a man of six children, beautiful wife there. I love this scene. It is just stunning. And I’d love you to talk about how this factors in, this ‘drift to drive’ principle in life and parenting.

Chris Robinson:

Yeah, in life and parenting, again, this happens in all areas of our life where we can have these secret places of satisfactory success. And when it comes to family for me, you know, I’ve obviously I have a lot of kids. We had all six of these kids in three pregnancies. So we had triplets, we had the single, and then we had the twins. And so life has been intense, but I would say that the choice that we made very early on that I think that was significant was that I said that as I go out and pursue this business as a speaker, coach, and trainer, I’m going to build this business around my family, not my family around the business.

And so still to this day, I mean, there was something I turned down this week. I—because my son’s got a tryout for a baseball team. Now here I am turning down dollars that should be coming into our family because I want to go and sit and watch a tryout for a 12-year-old, okay? But that’s what we do. We put the family block in first and then now I build everything around it. Now there’s times where, hey, look, the dates just don’t line up and the business stuff was on the calendar first and, you know, we can’t move it. But for the most part, everything that we’re trying to do is we want to build it around the family, not the, you know, the business around the family.

Eddie Turner:

That is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. So I really want to highlight that because what you’re talking about here applies to both and allows us to really take care of the most significant components of our life and truly be driving in every aspect. So, wonderful. What is the most significant lesson you want people to take away from both the book and our conversation that we’ve had here today?

Chris Robinson: 

Yeah, the most significant lesson is that there’s more to life than this. Whatever this is for you today, there’s more life available for you. You know, I had the opportunity when I was speaking in Cambodia to speak with the Minister of Education there and it was great because he was telling me the story of how he lives behind this rice farm. He lives on a rice farm and if you know about how they harvest the rice farm, after they harvest it, they burn it down. And I mean, he described how when they burn down these fields, it’s just it looks terrible. He’s got this terrible view out his window. There’s ash everywhere. Everything’s brown, black, and gray. He says, but what happens with this is that seemingly overnight as the fresh rain comes, it begins to almost green up overnight. He said and what that tells me is that despite what the circumstances look like, it may look dead, it may look burnt, it may look like it’s done, that with a little bit of water, a little bit of nurturing, there’s life waiting to be given in your circumstances if you just give it the water of life.

Eddie Turner:

Wonderful. I love hearing that. Thank you for sharing that, Chris. And is there a quote that you use that helps you keep leading?

Chris Robinson:

Yeah. You know, the quote that keeps me leading is one that I deal with on a daily basis and it’s my favorite phrase, which is treat people like people and adults like adults. And if you can follow that simple philosophy in leadership, you’ll go a long way if you treat people like people and adults like adults.

Eddie Turner:

We need more of that today for sure. That we do. We need more of that. I also want to take a moment very quickly. I noticed that here streaming in on Facebook, we have a reaction from Shannon Hogan. Yes. And so thank you Shannon for joining our live broadcast and he’s probably working or whatever can’t say anything. But he did take time to send an emoji through here. Yes. And what’s interesting about Shannon, he is someone who I’ve known since like second grade. We haven’t seen each other in probably 40 years. But met him in second grade and we went to elementary school together. So sometimes my Facebook viewers, it’s always a blast from the past and makes me smile and brings back a memory. So thank you Shannon.

Where can people learn more about you?

Chris Robinson: 

Yeah, absolutely. So a couple different places. If you go to drift2drivebook.com, that’s going to share with you about the book and all the different bonuses that we have around it. But then more in-depth information, you can go to ChrisRobinsonspeaker.com. ChrisRobinsonspeaker.com. Check that site out. That’ll tell you more about the topics I teach on and a little bit more about us and, you know, any way I can add value, just let me know.

Eddie Turner:

Excellent. So we put both of those on the screen for folks to be able to see. And certainly, Chris, it’s just been an absolute honor to have you. Thank you for being a guest here on the Keep Leading podcast. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone. I hope that you’ve enjoyed learning more about moving from drift to drive from my guest, Chris Robinson. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 166 | Chris Robinson | From Drift to Drive appeared first on Eddie Turner.

The Leadership that Matters Next

Episode Summary
When Technology Meets Humanity: A Conversation with Kate O’Neill

Get ready for an eye-opening discussion with one of the world’s most influential voices in human-centered technology!

Join host Eddie Turner as he sits down with Kate O’Neill, the renowned “Tech Humanist” and CEO of KO Insights, for a robust conversation about navigating our AI-driven future without losing our humanity.

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About Kate O’Neill
Kate O’Neill is a digital innovator, chief executive, business writer, and keynote speaker.

As the founder and CEO of KO Insights, she leads a strategic advisory firm that improves human experience at scale, particularly in data-driven, AI-led, and algorithmically optimized interactions.

Before founding KO Insights, Kate was among the first 100 employees at Netflix, a technologist at Toshiba, and the founder of the groundbreaking analytics firm, [meta]marketer.

Her work has received widespread recognition. She was named “Technology Entrepreneur of the Year,” a “Power Leader in Technology,” and a “Woman of Influence.” Google featured her in its global campaign for women in entrepreneurship, and Thinkers50, the premier global ranking of management thinkers, included her on its list of the World’s Management Thinkers to Watch and shortlisted her for its Distinguished Award for Digital Thinking.

Her insights have been featured in the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and WIRED, and she has appeared as an expert tech commentator on the BBC and NPR.

She has authored six books, including four on business strategy and technology: Tech Humanist, Pixels and Place, A Future So Bright, and What Matters Next.

Website
http://koinsights.com/

LinkedIn
http://linkedin.com/in/kateoneill

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/kateoneill/

Leadership Quote
“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when one contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries to comprehend only a little of this mystery every day.” — Einstein

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www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
Website: https://www.eddieturnerllc.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddieturner

About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading podcast. Another live broadcast of the Keep Leading podcast. The Keep Leading podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m Eddie Turner, your host, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact. I work with experienced and emerging leaders who want to have an exponential impact on the places, people and processes where they work. If you’re joining us today on LinkedIn, Facebook or YouTube, let us know. If we see your name come in, we’ll make you part of the conversation. You can feel free to ask a question of my guest. You can just share your reaction. We want to hear from you. And certainly hit the share button so that your friends and colleagues who may not be able to join us live, will be able to benefit from the replay later on. And as always, we will make this available not just as a video uh live stream, it’ll be available as a video podcast and an audio podcast uh in a few days on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

I am super excited that today I get to sit down with one of the world’s most influential voices in human-centered technology. My guest today is Kate O’Neal. Kate O’Neal is a digital innovator, a chief executive, business writer and keynote speaker. She founded KO Insights. She was among the first 100 employees at Netflix before she did that though. Think about that. That’s a pretty cool thing to say. And she was a technologist at Toshiba and the founder of the groundbreaking analytics firm Metamarketer. She’s received worldwide recognition and a list that is exhaustive. I mean just the it’s the who’s who that has recognized Kate. And we’ll talk about uh a couple of the big ones as we go through our discussion. And you have seen her work in top business and academic journals including the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. She’s appeared as an expert tech commentator on BBC and NPR. She’s authored six books. And today, we’re going to talk about the leadership that matters next based on her latest book, What Matters Next. Kate, welcome to the Keep Leading podcast. There it is.

Kate O’Neill:
Thank you, Eddie. Thanks for having me on your show and thanks for bringing me in front of uh such an incredibly illustrious audience that I’m sure we’re we’re talking to today and and over time. There I am and there’s the book.

Eddie Turner:
There you are and there’s the book. You flash it briefly, but I want to make sure everybody gets a chance to look at it so they know what to go search for. Yes, we’re going to make sure people know what matters next. Tell us the full title there.

Kate O’Neill:
What Matters Next, a leader’s guide to making human-friendly tech decisions in a world that’s moving too fast.

Eddie Turner:
And yes, I got a chance to hear some of this when I last saw you in person, you and I were, oh, that didn’t come out right. You and I were at the Thinkers 50. I I I normally test these things first. I it hit me at the last minute. Kate and I were together for Thinkers 50 in London. That’s right. Tell people who don’t know what Thinkers 50 is, uh why that’s a big deal.

Kate O’Neill:
I love that some organization, some write up of Thinkers 50 some years ago referred to it as the Oscars of management thinking. And I think that they fell in love with that description and everybody associated with the organization loves that description too. So that’s the easiest way to describe it. It’s the Oscars of management thinking. Every two years they host a gala and they uh give out they they first of all, there’s a ranked list of of 50 top thinkers in the world relating to management thinking. The the last series included Amy Edmondson at the top of that list whose work on psychological safety has been incredibly important. Um, and then, you know, a bunch of people down the list that are very familiar names to anyone who does a lot of business book reading and and pays attention to the thoughts coming out of management circles. Uh, and then they also have a radar, so paying attention to who’s up and coming. And then some distinguished thinking awards. So I have been named to the radar and uh my last my second to last book, um, a future so bright was named to the distinguished thinking uh it was a was shortlisted for rather the distinguished thinking award for digital thinking. So uh so good stuff. And and you and I uh met there or or saw each other there. I think we’ve actually met through NSA.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, we met before that in yes, in our in our National Speakers Association circles. And we were part of the same chapter there in New York for a little while. So we hadn’t seen each other probably in five years. And then we were able to see each other and spend some time there. You delivered just a terrific presentation. And then yes, you were included on their list of the world’s management thinkers to watch list. And they put you on the distinguished award for digital thinking. And so That’s right. That’s the radar.

Kate O’Neill:
It’s a that’s huge huge honor. Thank you. It’s a huge honor. I think that I really have a lot of respect. I’m sure you do too for the folks who make that list and the folks whose whose work is recognized in any format. Uh it’s just it’s truly some of the best people to know and benchmark yourself against because people just aren’t satisfied with, you know, oh, you know, I’m not sitting pretty on on some idea I had 20 years ago. I’m like, I’m building on it, I’m building on it. And and that’s the kind of people I really enjoy being around.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, that was basically a big nerd prom we were saying in in in jest to each other, right? And boy, we all loved it. It was just phenomenal. So great to see you again and have you here to talk about what I heard there and I I wanted my audience to get a chance to hear this from you directly. And there’s a lot being said about AI around us and there’s a lot happening with AI and your book is so thorough in how your coverage of this. I have a lot of questions to ask you and I’m almost not even sure where to start. So let me start here. Uh your big you’re a big advocate of humanizing technology and there was a big bruhaha last week when uh the CEO of Claude AI uh when he brought up the fact of what happens with technology and that there’s a blood bath coming with in the world because of AI, what it’s going to happen to white collar jobs and that by the way, it might even expose some inappropriate behavior. What’s your reaction to that?

Kate O’Neill:
Well, I think he’s he’s obviously someone who’s very much on the inside of what’s going on in the AI space. He isn’t necessarily and I think this is true for many of the CEOs and leaders in Silicon Valley and Silicon Valley geographically as well as Silicon Valley sort of as a metonym for the big tech industry. Um, those leaders don’t necessarily tend to stay as plugged into the leadership and decision making that happens in other industries kind of across the board. And and I think there’s some truth to the the reality of displacement from automation and particularly intelligent automation. We’ve certainly seen um, you know, robotic manufacturing, you know, in the in the in decades past displace jobs, but what they also did is made it safer for human workers. You know, some of those some of those jobs that were replaced or displaced by automative robotic arms actually made the workplace a safer place for humans. We aren’t necessarily in a place where we can say that about AI taking away like newsroom jobs, for example. Um, but those I would say, you know, there’s another facet to this consideration which is that some of what’s happening isn’t the fault of the AI. It’s the fault of management who’s not thinking far enough down the road. You know, so we see some examples. Newsrooms are a good place to look uh to start where you know, too rash decisions have been made when new models of AI come about, large language models, you know, you know, famously chat GPT in November 2022, but even since then every kind of unfolding of of the new emerging frontier models has kind of caught leadership attention, management attention and then many times you’ll see overcorrecting, overreact, overreacting kind of jumping the gun so to speak on firing whole swaths of editors or you know, whole swaths of writers and then having really embarrassing misprints when, you know, something like uh an chat GPT generates a misleading description of what uh the debt ceiling is or something like that and then CNET runs it and they have to print a retraction and they’re like, well, maybe we jumped the gun a little bit here. And I think that’s where it stands it behooves us to think as leaders and as as managers to think about not just what the technology affords us, but what we really need to be thinking about over time. You know, maybe we could actually cut some jobs and use chat GPT or other tools to to streamline our efficiency now, but that actually doesn’t necessarily play out so well over the many cycles of evolution that our business needs to go through. And there’s just there’s a process here and I describe it in my book that has to do with thinking about these things on a longer time horizon. Uh and I talk about it as the now next continuum. And on the now next continuum, I talk about the harms of action and the harms of inaction. And the harms of action are invoked when we move too fast for knowing what the consequences of that action are likely to be. And the harms of inaction are invoked when we already do know what we should be doing and we fail to act on that. That is the case when we look at something like climate change, for example. There are many, many instances where uh organizations and industries know that they should be doing more than they than they’re doing and and not acting on the information that they have, not making more um proactive decisions is hurting everyone. Uh it’s hurting their industry too. It’s causing the lack of trust. But the harms of action are ones that we often see as it relates to technology where people move too quickly, try to implement uh what they think are innovative solutions, but these innovative solutions haven’t been thought about in a human-centered context. They haven’t been thought about as it relates to the whole ecosystem of that industry or of that business as it relates to its marketplace. And so those are considerations that I want I want the organizations to think about.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, and you describe this tension between future and preservation in in in in your book and in a number of ways. And as I I thought about it, I thought about what kind of happened in in the 2008 world where you had this evolution of this company called Uber. And people saying, well, hey, this is great technology, this is wonderful. But then others were saying, no, wait a minute, this is a threat to our industry. So let’s put some legislation in place and let’s let’s get these these these people out of here. But really what happened is it really elevated the the ride experience for everybody and gave birth to other industries. And so you talk about it in terms of uh you describing it as whack-a-mole legislation where sometimes people try to use legislation to put uh constrict uh the growth of AI, the growth of new technologies. Uh give us your thoughts how you describe it in your book and the implications this has specifically on AI.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, I I will back up just a little bit there because I I wouldn’t necessarily say that the Uber as an example of disruption lifted the game or changed the game for everyone or or made up the experience better for everyone. I think that we have uh still an opportunity to learn from the ways that Uber Uber moved too rashly and and did things in ways that weren’t necessarily ethical. Um, the the taxi industry though did things that also were kind of digging in their heels in ways that weren’t particularly helpful. Uh, and both industries had a lot to learn from one another. And and this is where I think we have more of an opportunity through, you know, regulation as an opportunity to to protect the end user, end consumer, end uh end person, you know, at the end of a series of of market actions and um things that happen in the in the real world that government is best suited to put guard rails around. Um, but where where I think we tend to see sometimes you’ll see industry try to insert itself into that process and have regulation crafted that suits them particularly, that’s, you know, carves out their space and gets they say that this regulatory capture. Um, Open AI tried to do this. Sam Altman was lobbying Congress for particular kinds of AI controls that were going to allow them to operate the way they wanted to operate but would keep uh barriers in place for new entrance to that market. So we have to be careful. I definitely see regulations as a public good when they’re done well and when they’re informed and when they have the the public in mind. Uh but I don’t see it as a public good when corporations insert themselves into that process and try to shape it in ways that are uh necessarily going to benefit just the business and not the people who are meant to be protected by uh legislation and regulations.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed. And that’s the example that you cited in the book that I thought was so apropos. And thank you for the clarification on that. What I meant was that it enhanced the ride experience in that uh cab drivers were forced to clean up your cars a little bit more. Oh yeah. To match the experience of the Ubers uh of the legislation that that was passed. Yeah. And so there’s a there’s a need to kind of put a little bit of a harness, but also not so much to where you’re constricting the growth and constricting the innovation and that’s the point that you get at there. And so wanted to highlight that because that’s impacting how businesses are structuring what this looks like as we go forward.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, and I think one of the things we’re seeing right now that that’s so relevant is we’re in a very deregulatory moment. Obviously our our current government administration in the US in particular, but I think some ways in some ways around the world, um there’s this tendency, this kind of pendulum swinging toward the deregulation side. And and uh one of the things I’ve written about a lot and spoken about a lot in the last few months, um since the US president took office, for example, has been that leaders need to recognize that that isn’t a free pass toward operating as if there are no guard rails in place, particularly when we’re talking about AI and other emerging technology. There are still going to be downstream consequences. Some of that may have to do with emerging regulations that come in years from now. Some of it may have to do with operating in other international markets where there are different regulations in place. But some of it may just have to do with the the fallout of public trust. If you if you overstep what people understand to be the right way to handle data and the right way to handle, you know, kind of privacy and and other types of things like that. So even when there is a deregulatory environment like we’re in right now, I think leaders need to recognize what that does is actually shifts the responsibility onto the shoulders of CEOs and board boards of directors and other leaders to think ahead and put their own guard rails in place. Make sure that they’re thinking in a responsible way about the future and about how they actually build and and deploy their technology solutions so that they’re future ready.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, and you give a good example in your book about, I forgot the company who had the facial recognition technology and and how that got them a little bit of hot water.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, Clearview.

Eddie Turner:
Clearview, there we go. And how that got them a little bit of hot water. But yeah, be the that that it’s that it’s that balance, you know, how do we, you know, give people what they need in the future and part of us having technological advancements means in in some ways we we we we have the sacrificing of of somewhat uh of trust in some areas.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, that’s true. I just want to jump in quickly on that because if you pay attention to like the Edelman Trust barometer, you know that the last four or five years it’s been corporations as all of the entities that they survey, corporations, government, media and NGOs, I think are the types of entities they survey and corporations hold the highest level of public trust out of all those entities. And if you think about that as a as a CEO or as a leader inside of a corporation, as many of our listeners I assume are, there is an incredible opportunity inherent in that that if you if you are the entity the public looks to with trust, you have the opportunity to shape the discourse, to move things forward in ways that are aligned with human outcomes and really establish yourselves as the people who are thinking ahead and and developing innovative solutions that are very aligned with where humans want to be.

Eddie Turner:
So say that again, the Edelman Trust barometer?

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, the Edelman Trust barometer. If you’re not familiar, folks on your who are listening aren’t familiar, E D E L M A N is the name of the PR agency. They run a survey every year and they study trust and they look across these different types of entities. And for these last four or five years or so, out of the types of entities, the type of entity that the public most trusts are corporations. It’s not government, not media and so on. Yeah, it is, right? And I think that’s just been such an incredible opportunity for corporate leaders to really own that leadership space and really say, look, okay, if we’re the ones people are looking to with trust and saying, we trust what you have to say about, you know, what the emerging topics are. We trust what you have to say and what you’re offering into this whole marketplace of ideas, that’s an incredibly important place to be and when we think about that relative to the deregulatory moment we’re in, relative to the striking down of lots of DEI legislation and recommendations, relative to all these different things, it’s such a moment for leaders to step into an ethical, moral, responsible leadership kind of role and really set the stage for what should be happening in the public discourse.

Eddie Turner:
That’s a powerful statistic and I really appreciate you sharing that and bringing that resource to to light for us, Kate.

Kate O’Neill:
Absolutely, Eddie.

Eddie Turner:
Well, I’m going to pause right now in the midst of this conversation that I’m having with Kate O’Neal, tech humanist, the CEO of KO Insights to acknowledge the sponsor of the Keep Leading podcast.

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Kate O’Neill:
What matters next.

Eddie Turner:
Sorry, what matters next and we’re talking about the leadership that matters next. If I can get my screens right. Sorry, there we go. Uh what matters next, making human-friendly tech decisions in a world that’s moving too fast. So Kate, what are the questions that I had for you is when it comes to um integrating AI in an organization, which all leaders are trying to do right now. How can leaders integrate AI while preserving human agency and creativity?

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, I think it’s really not an overstatement or exaggeration to say that we’re really in living through the greatest leadership challenge of our time. And leaders who are leading companies that are increasingly becoming tech companies that maybe weren’t tech companies before, are having to make decisions about technology that’s moving faster than human wisdom. So that is the problem that we’re with we face right now. That the too fast part of the the moving too fast part of the the subtitle of my book is no accident because I would hear as I as I speak to to audiences of CEOs and leaders across industries, the thing I hear so often is that it just is so much to keep up with that people feel overwhelmed, they’re daunted by the the rate of change. Uh and AI is one of the big drivers of that rate of change. So one of the things I encourage people to do is to think in a human-centered way about their organization and the the way that you can think in a human-centered way is to think about human values and human contribution. And one of the one of the most key human experiences is that of meaning and purpose. Now, I know we talk a lot about purpose as it relates to business strategy. It’s it’s been a very common topic these last few years. But I think that the the common discourse, the the way we often talk about purpose sounds a little esoteric, a little flighty, a little soft and fuzzy, but the way I mean purpose is an is as organizational strategy. I actually mean it’s part of the origin story of the business, it’s part of the foundational operating model of the business. It’s really about that sort of three to five word very crisp distillation of what the company exists to do and is trying to do at scale. And the clearer an organization can get on that, the clearer it is, the easier it is for everybody within the organization to be aligned in the work that they do and for technology to be deployed that actually accelerates that organizational perspective in ways that would be impossible without that clarity. So what we’re looking for is strategic clarity and we want that to be a clear articulation. Having done that, then we can begin to look at technology as uh as disruption, as transformation, as innovation, but we definitely want to be thinking about that across all the human stakeholders uh in our ecosystem before we before we ever start thinking about, oh, that’s a shiny thing. Let’s see how that shiny thing fits into our business right now.

Eddie Turner:
That’s why you say move fast but don’t break humanity.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, yeah, because I think one of the flaws, one of the tendencies people have and it’s a completely understandable tendency is to grasp for the shiny thing, right? Is to go like there’s a new AI model and uh now the CEO wants to know um what’s our AI strategy? But we don’t have an AI strategy. Nobody has an AI strategy except for maybe, you know, Open AI or Claude or you know, Anthropic or whatever. Like those the companies that have AI as part of their core underpinnings maybe have an AI strategy. But you as an organization, if you are anything other than an AI company, have a strategy which is related to that organizational purpose articulation and that strategy may be helped along by AI. So I think that’s the important work is really getting that the discipline of moving the technology out of the driver’s seat and having it be something that’s actually helping you deliver on what it is you’re trying to deliver in the first place.

Eddie Turner:
Well said. And I just have to ask you which what is Kate O’Neal’s favorite AI tool?

Kate O’Neill:
You know, um, I use notion a lot uh for my team and I all collaborate in notion. If you’re familiar with notion, it’s like a wiki sort of um knowledge system. I used to use Evernote all the time and I transitioned to to notion to be able to collaborate with my team. And notion has a uh an API connection to GPT, um chat GPT. So it’s a uh a really useful integration with notion. But then of course, I’m always flipping over to perplexity for research and for to Claude for help, you know, kind of long long form drafting and things like that. So I’ve got a whole suite of tools just like many people at this point that I’m using um and and relying on. But these tools are, I think it’s really important to say to own that publicly that I think these tools are not the the enemy in and of themselves. I think what what we see as AI slop that gets published out there that, you know, the kind of stuff that that everyone recoils from and and loves to hate. That stuff is the process of not letting yourself be in the driver’s seat, right? If you are allowing, I I always say, we can’t allow, we can’t we can’t allow machines to make meaning. We have to be the ones who make meaning ourselves. And if we are trying to craft something meaningful and we use AI tools as accelerants, as, you know, uh brainstorming partners, that sort of thing, that’s going to result in meaningful work as long as we stay in the driver’s seat. I think it’s the moment when we say, you know, draft a blog post about leadership and then we just take whatever slop comes out of chat GPT and post it to our blog or whatever, that’s when you start like really handing over the keys and that is not valuable for anybody.

Eddie Turner:
So What about you, Eddie? What’s your favorite AI tool?

Eddie Turner:
I like uh the ones you mentioned. Yeah. Uh but the it’s it depends on what what task I’m trying to accomplish. But clearly the point you made about perplexity, Claude, those are formidable tools that allow you to accomplish so much. And uh I I I like your point about notion. I I I’m a big Evernote fan as well, but I haven’t migrated over to notion. So I I I like that one. I’ll have to do a little bit of research on that.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah, sending out the love to the Evernote team because I was a long time loyal user of that platform and I still am. Still am a paid user, but it just hasn’t had my usage in a while and I’m very sorry Evernote team. I still love you but just and notion has uh has really done such a bang up job of bringing themselves up to the level of uh of competitor and then I think really surpassing whatever note was accomplishing. At least for us.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you.

Kate O’Neill:
Yeah.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you for sharing that so that we’ll know. So this is why I say this is the leadership There you go. That’s a great idea. We can talk to them about that.

Eddie Turner:
That’s why I said this is the leadership that matters next, right? To your point, even people who are not even concerned about technology now have to be aware of technology and as they’re doing this and as they’re integrating, it’s touching every aspect of the employee experience. That’s right. Leaders need to know about this, but keep humanity. So thank you for sharing this uh good information with us. And what is the main point you want those who are hearing this uh podcast or watching us live that you want them to take away from our conversation?

Kate O’Neill:
I think it it’s uh a couple of things that this whole leaders don’t need to be tech experts, but they do need to be using human-centered decisions when they make tech decisions. They they do need to be human-centered as they make tech decisions and I think that’s that’s going to be increasingly true. The more we find tech accelerating us and moving things in faster and faster ways, the more we need to be intentional and uh aligned with meaning and purpose in our leadership through through technology and beyond. So that’s the real opportunity.

Eddie Turner:
That’s wonderful. Thank you. And is there a piece of advice that you use that helps you to keep leading or a quote that you like?

Kate O’Neill:
I think one of the things that that I have a lot of quotes that I rely on, but but one distillation of this discussion that may be useful for folks is to just remember that every technology decision is really a values decision in disguise. And that might help for your next round of decisions that you have with your executive team, your board, you know, your peers, uh however, bring the values up, be overt and explicit about them and make sure that you’re having that conversation because somewhere or other someone is encoding values into your technology, so you might as well do it explicitly. Uh and I I think that’s going to make much better results for your organization.

Eddie Turner:
Every values every technology decision is a values decision. That’s right. Powerful. Thank you, Kate.

Eddie Turner:
Well, folks, I want you to go out and and visit KOinsights.com to learn more about Kate’s work. Kate is just phenomenal as as as as I mentioned at the beginning and hopefully the last 30 minutes have given you a chance to see why. Kate, thank you for helping us to understand what matters next.

Kate O’Neill:
Thank you, Eddie. I appreciate it. It’s been a joy to be on your show.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of the Keep Leading podcast everyone. I’m Eddie Turner reminding you that leadership is not about our position. It’s not about our authority. Leadership is an activity. It’s action. It’s not about uh leadership is not a garment that we put on or take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all that we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

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Managing Up

Episode Summary
Tune in to this live recording of the Keep Leading!® podcast, where I sit down with Melody Wilding, an acclaimed author and professor of human behavior, to uncover game-changing strategies from her book, “Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge.”

Discover how to build emotional intelligence, relational capital, and negotiation skills to thrive in your career. Melody shares invaluable insights for reclaiming control and achieving the recognition you deserve. Ideal for professionals at all levels, this episode serves as your guide to navigating office politics and excelling in remote work. Don’t miss it!

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About Melody Wilding
Melody Wilding is the author of “Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge.” For over a decade, she has assisted intelligent, thoughtful top performers in the world’s most successful companies—including Google, JP Morgan, and Verizon—achieve the recognition, respect, and pay they deserve.

She is a licensed social worker with a master’s degree from Columbia University, a professor of human behavior at Hunter College in New York City, and a former emotions researcher at Rutgers University. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and numerous other respected publications.

She regularly contributes to Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Fast Company, and CNBC. Melody is also the author of “Trust Yourself: Stop Overthinking and Channel Your Emotions for Success at Work.”

Website
https://melodywilding.com

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/melodywilding/

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https://www.instagram.com/melodywilding/

Leadership Quote
“The most powerful leadership tool you have is your own example.” – John Wooden

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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Transcript

Eddie Turner
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Keep Leading podcast. This is another live broadcast where I, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, am here to help introduce you to leadership development and insight through this Keep Leading program. I work with emerging and experienced leaders who want to have an exponential impact on the people, processes, and profits at the places that they have purview. And I do that through executive coaching, facilitation, and professional speaking. My goal here is to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading. I am broadcasting today on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. So I encourage you to hit that share button so that your colleagues can be able to watch this broadcast if not joining us live by being able to watch it later on as it will remain in their feed. This will also be a normal podcast that you can download wherever you download your podcast. And if you’re downloading from Spotify, you get the video as well as the audio. If you want to be a part of our conversation, join us. That’s the benefit of the live program. You can leave us a comment, tell us where you’re from. You can ask my guest a question live. And certainly, you can also use the emoticons for some folks who can’t interact with words, they use the emoticons and we appreciate that as well. If you are not already following my guest, I’m going to encourage you to do so. Follow her on all her social media profiles, which I’ll be sharing at the end of the show.

On this live recording, I am beyond excited to welcome back a guest that I’ve had before. On this broadcast of the Keep Leading podcast, I have with me Melody Wilding. Melody Wilding is the acclaimed author and professor of human behavior who’s just written a game-changing book entitled *Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge*. Now, why did I invite Melody Wilding? I invited Melody Wilding because of her extensive experience working with great companies like Google, JP Morgan, Verizon, and she’s also a licensed social worker with a master’s degree from Columbia University. And she is a professor at Hunter College. You’ve seen her work in the Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business Review. In fact, I think she had the top article not too long ago in Harvard Business Review. And also the Washington Post and many other respected outlets. And she is also a contributor on CNBC, Forbes, and Fast Company. In short, she’s everywhere. But right now, I have her right here. So Melody, welcome to the show and thank you for coming back.

Melody Wilding
Oh, Eddie, I’m so happy to be with you again. I always love our conversations. You were on my podcast recently, so this is just such a treat to be back.

Eddie Turner
Oh, indeed, indeed, indeed. I enjoyed the opportunity to be on your podcast episode number 19, *How to Seize Opportunities at Work Without Stepping on Toes*. So if you haven’t listened to the Psychology at Work podcast, I definitely encourage you ladies and gentlemen to subscribe to that. And then while you’re doing that, please check out episode number 19. And I also, I say she’s my return guest, one of the few people I’ve had because when *Trust Yourself* was released, Melody was a guest on the Keep Leading podcast. She was guest number 112. So, Melody, I’d be remiss also by not mentioning that the person who told me about you was Fred Amador. He says, you got to, he went to your program. He says, you got to invite her on your show and interview her. So I want to give a nod to Fred as well. So now, please, Melody, tell us about *Managing Up*.

Melody Wilding
Yes, well, Eddie, you were mentioning that I came back on or I came on the show for the first time a few years ago when *Trust Yourself* came out. And that book came out during the thick of the pandemic. We all remember what was happening then. We had the great resignation. A lot of us were rethinking our approach to work. There was also a lot of change. And we also all know that pace has kept up. There I have clients who have gone through three, four reorgs in just a year or two and they’re shifting priorities every single day. And so I was noticing people felt like they were at the whim of everything that was happening around them. They were just being jerked around by all of these changes, the different personalities. They didn’t feel like they were in the driver’s seat or feel in control of their careers. And there’s some interesting research to back this up that since the pandemic, the number of people that feel helpless, that feel out of control in terms of their career trajectory, their relationships, it has doubled. And so that huge impetus for this book is I believe you can have or you can operate rather from a position of personal power at work even when you don’t have positional power. And that’s what *Managing Up* is all about. Is helping you get the recognition, the respect, the compensation that you deserve.

Eddie Turner
Very interesting. And I love this phrase “positional power” and you address this a lot in your book. This book, before I get, I want to dig into that a little bit, but before I do, I must say that for those who are watching this, others will hear it in the audio version. If you’re watching this, you see I have the book on the screen, *Managing Up: How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge*. If you were to go to Amazon and try to buy this book right now, there’s something interesting you’d find. In your cart, it would say, hey, you might also want to get *Trust Yourself*, her first book. But this book and Melody’s work is so powerful and impactful that the other book it recommends, it’s being recommended right next to Mel Robbins. How about that, Melody Wilding? That’s how amazing your book is.

Melody Wilding
Well, that makes my day to see. And it’s so interesting because yes, this is a book on it is a book about the tactics. There’s tons of in-depth scripts. I mean dozens and dozens of scripts and tactical strategies for influencing, for persuading other people, for building that relationship with your manager and other higher-ups. But the deeper message of the book is that you teach people how to treat you at work. And so I wonder if that’s why Mel Robbins’ book is being recommended alongside of it. I’ll take that, by the way. That’s awesome. But it’s really so much deeper than just I think we think of managing up as this kind of something you do earlier in your career and you grow out of it. But fundamentally, this is about reclaiming a sense of agency at work and really shaping the perception around you, the dynamics around you, the opportunities you have and not just letting that happen, but you being more of an active agent in all of that.

Eddie Turner
Now let’s pull those together then. Being an active agent, using your positional power or not relinquishing, however that you want to put that together. Tell us more how we do that in this Managing Up process.

Melody Wilding
Yes. Yes, so the book is based around these 10 conversations for managing up because what I noticed is when whenever I would ask people about this skill set or what they had been told about it, you would get these very fragmented, pithy one-liners about be proactive, come with solutions, not problems. And managing up is so much more robust and in-depth than that. And it really spans everything from how do you get on the same page with your manager to make sure you’re working on the most meaningful, promotable work all the way to how are you advocating for your advancement and your compensation in that organization. And even the last conversation in the book is the quitting conversation because even when we are exiting an organization or a team or a certain responsibility, we still need to be managing our relationships and our perceptions. And so that’s where these 10 conversations came about. And the first five are the most foundational. I can talk about those in a minute. But they create the groundwork and they lay the foundation for the later five conversations. So we have to start out with things like the alignment conversation, the styles conversation, ownership, boundaries, feedback. We need all of that to build trust, rapport, to understand what makes the people tick around us so we can make our proposals and ideas more persuasive that resonates with them. And then once we do that, then we can get to some more of the advanced things like networking, visibility, advancement, money. And so that’s really the framework. And I think it also helps people realize, okay, where do I need to focus first? Am I more in a stage with my manager or in the organization where I need to have the ownership conversation? That’s what I need to focus on right now. Or boundaries is a really big thing for me because we just laid off a couple thousand people and now I’m doing three folks’ jobs where before I was doing just my own. And so it also helps you pinpoint with more precision, where are you and exactly how do you need to manage up to get the best and maximum results.

Eddie Turner
Yes, and given what’s unfolding in the world around us at this time, your book, much like your first book, came out precisely when the world needed it. I believe that this is going to be the answer for a lot of people in the midst of what’s unfolding. And this idea that you have written it in the style of a conversation, it becomes very apparent in the book. Both in how you’ve named the chapters, but also in how you conduct the conversation throughout your authorship. And I love the sections as you have there. You call it “steal the scripts.” So you then after you’ve explained to the reader what should be the case through real-life stories and through your research, you say, hey, I’m not going to leave you alone. Here’s what you can say exactly. So I love that section.

Melody Wilding
Yes, and that I rewrote the book actually three times because it took a lot to get down to that level of specificity. And I think that’s what people want now. Theory is only helpful to an extent, right? It’s easy to say, okay, have the alignment conversation with your manager. Get on the same page. But there’s a lot of nuance in what questions you ask, how you ask them. And even something like, let’s take feedback again. When should you give feedback versus when should you hold back? Should you wait 24 hours? Should you not? There’s all of these nuances. And I also find now we are all so overloaded. And there’s also a lot of hesitancy to have these conversations. And so having those really specific scripts and phrasing, and I give lots of options in the book because you can then adapt it to your style and your voice. But at least it gives you a starting point. So you get over that hump, that fear of, okay, that sounds good, but I don’t know what to say or how to say it. Now you have a guide.

Eddie Turner
You have a guide and that’s why I love that you included that. Especially as you mentioned here this idea that is happening, many people because of the displacements are not just doing their job anymore. They’re now doing their job, someone else’s, and in some cases, two someone else’s jobs. You talk about the fact that that may lead some people to want a job change altogether or at a minimum, hey, I’m going to do all this. Can I get a title change? Can I get a promotion? Can I get more compensation? Walk through your advice that you provide to people in the book who find themselves in that situation.

Melody Wilding
Yes. Well, I also wanted to add yes, we’re all doing the job of multiple people now. But also, managing up has to extend beyond our direct supervisor. That is the environment where most of the people listening to this will be operating in is highly matrixed. You have dotted lines. You may have project leads. You may have interactions where you have to manage up to someone at a client or a vendor or a regulatory partner, for example. And so I think we also need to expand our thinking and our conception of what it even means to manage up because you put yourself in a precarious position when you are only focused on your direct supervisor. And that actually leads into the advancement conversation because you want to make sure you have those other allies, those other advocates. You need to understand and be talking to people about how does the promotion process work here? Or when you were able to get a stretch assignment, how did you pitch that? Who did you have to talk to? Who had to be on board? You have to understand the political landscape and do a bit of that research before you just come out and say, I want this thing. You have to know the details of where you’re operating. So that’s one thing. And then second, actually, this is how the conversation can start to interweave and we can loop back to these. But if you haven’t had the alignment or the styles conversation at least in some form, it’s going to be hard to have the advancement conversation because alignment helps you understand what’s important to my manager or the organization. So then I can tie how I want to advance to those objectives. And then also the styles conversation helps you then frame it in terms of wording and terminology in a way that will resonate with them more. So we can loop back to that. But probably the biggest mistake I see people make when it comes to advancement is that they do not start early enough. They assume that their work is going to speak for itself and the rewards will come, people will see it. And so it is important to be having the visibility conversation, but it’s also important to be making your ambitions and your aspirations known early on because your manager needs to be factoring that into leveling conversations and resource planning and budgeting. And if they are not aware, those decisions may be made without you. And if you wait until your performance review conversation, that ship has likely sailed. That is not the time to bring up, well, I would like a promotion. Your manager cannot make that type of decision on the spot there. And so whenever you want to start, add about three or six months ahead of that. And just like you were saying, a big part of the advancement conversation is planting seeds is starting with, let’s say you have a big win where a project goes well. In your next one-on-one, you can just subtly and very gently bring that up and say, I loved working on this initiative. It was really fun to get to work on the strategic planning side or get to partner with this other department. That’s something I would love to do more of in the future. So you’re just planting the seed about things you would like. That way when you have, yeah, when you have the formal advancement conversation, you can say, all right, we’re mid-year right now. By the beginning of next year, I would love to move from a, let’s say director to a VP or from a manager to a senior manager level. What would you need to see to make that possible or to be comfortable with moving me to that next level? And so that way you’re starting to surface objections, you’re starting to contract around what exactly does your manager need to see? So you have more of a plan to work against.

Eddie Turner
Beautiful. Thank you for that strategy. That’ll be helpful to many people, no doubt. And you highlighted the idea that managing up doesn’t just involve your direct manager, but also skip level. We have to take those relationships into consideration. When you’re talking about this managing up and involving people outside of your layer of management, you’re talking about promotional conversations or even conversations of navigating other departments in your existing organization. Sometimes the fear that people have is, wow, I don’t want to make my direct manager upset, but I need advice from other managers. Or I don’t want them to think I’m disloyal, but I would like to explore other opportunities in the organization. Do I tell this manager first, then go ask these others or should I go directly to these others? What have you seen?

Melody Wilding
Well, there’s going to be nuance here depending on the culture that you’re in. I have plenty of folks that I work with where that sort of cross-pollination or talking to other leaders is encouraged and is institutionalized into the culture. So it depends, but I hear that type of hesitation all of the time. And actually in the first chapter on alignment, I talk about skip level conversations in particular where you are talking to your manager’s manager. And how do you do that without making your direct manager feel excluded out of the process? So in most cases, I will say you at least you want to give your direct manager a heads up. But you want to frame it in how you speaking to their boss is a win-win. And so you may say like, I’m interested in getting a broader understanding of what we’re working on right now and some of the things that are being discussed at the leadership level. Would you be open to me grabbing 20 minutes with your boss to talk about this? Or you can start smaller. You can say, do you think your leader would be open to joining one of our one-on-ones or even one of our team meetings? So it feels less threatening that you’re meeting with this person one-on-one without your manager being there. That can be sort of a softer sell, a gentler way that still gives you exposure to that person, the ability for them to know your name, for you to ask them questions, but it’s a little less threatening.

Eddie Turner
All right. Thank you for that. Well, I am talking to the amazing Melody Wilding. She’s the author of *Managing Up* and *Trust Yourself*. And before I take this pause, I want to acknowledge that Fred Amador actually did join and he is also sending you an emoticon. I don’t think you see it on your side, but I want to let you know that. So thank you Fred for being a part of our session today.

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I’m enjoying my conversation with Melody Wilding, the author of *Managing Up*. So, Melody, one of the things that you talk about in your book that I really thought was important is you highlighted toward the end there this idea about the visibility conversation. And the idea that your good work doesn’t just speak for itself, which too many people think is the case or they’re just afraid of coming across as being a person who’s bragging. I don’t want to be a self-promoter. Talk about the advice that you give people in the book when it comes to the importance of self-promotion.

Melody Wilding
Yeah. Yeah, this is a controversial one because a lot of people I work with will say, like I said before, I want my work to speak for itself. I’m introverted. I want to be more behind the scenes. But here’s the thing. I want to challenge you to rethink self-promotion more rather less as selfishly bragging. That’s not what you’re doing here. Instead, you are just giving fact-based reporting about what you and your team are accomplishing. And that is actually a duty that you have in your role because the people above you, even across from you, they need to understand what’s happening at your level, the milestones that you’re getting, the skills you and your team have in order to make the most informed decision. So when you don’t speak up about those things, you’re actually withholding information that they need. So that’s the first thing. And then the second is that so much of good self-promotion or being visible, it comes down to stronger storytelling. And there’s so many simple frameworks for that. I mentioned a couple in the book. One of them, my favorite, again, very simple, but it helps you conceptualize and be more organized and concise when you are trying to be visible is problem, action, solution. And you can do this in a way that adds value to others. Like let’s say you speak up in a meeting and you share an anecdote about how your team redid some process. You could say, actually, we have some experience with this. Here was the situation. We had clients where renewals were falling through the cracks. That’s the problem. Then you describe what was the action that you took. And so we named a point person who rejiggered X, Y, and Z. And then the solution, what was the result of that? And so you are subtly self-promoting, you’re also promoting your team, we’ll get to that, but you’re also giving value to other people through kind of this teachable moment. So again, it becomes this win-win opportunity.

Eddie Turner
What’s the danger if I don’t do that, Melody?

Melody Wilding
The danger if you don’t do that, you will be overlooked. Everyone is so busy right now. I think the one of the stats I came across in the book was that the average person gets 120 new emails a day, the average person. So think about an executive or a higher-level leader in an organization, probably double or triple that. And then you have Slack messages and meetings and it we are just inundated. And so if we are not being intentional about putting our results in front of someone, then we’re going to be looked over, right? Our work cannot speak for itself. And also we want to make sure our managers are equipped to advocate for us at the higher leadership levels. And so you want to essentially hand your manager, hey, here are some of the milestones we’re getting so that when you have that budget discussion, you have a way to justify that yes, we need this head count. We need this software, whatever it is. So you want to make sure you’re doing that because ultimately it makes you and your team more successful.

Eddie Turner
Absolutely. Thank you. And one other danger I’ve seen from my female executive clients is the idea that sometimes the other danger is that people will take credit for your work if you don’t speak up and advocate for yourself. Hey, listen, I’m excited to see that Hung Yock Chapman has joined us from Thailand. Thank you. And talk about self-promotion. I’m going to promote for her because she just wrapped up an amazing week. She’s the president of the International Coaching Federation and they did a phenomenal job. Their leadership team there and she led the charge of celebrating International Coaching Week there where she brought together four different chapters there in Asia and they just did fantastic work celebrating the power of coaching. So thank you for joining us live, Hung Yock. We are so happy to have you.

Well, Melody, I wanted to also highlight another point that you brought up in your book is the most effective way to have the money conversation. So once you’ve taken the steps to make sure you’re seeing you wanted to ask for a promotion, you don’t want to let your work go unnoticed, how do I ask for what I deserve?

Melody Wilding
Yes. Yes, when it comes to the money conversation, this is pretty loaded, right? Because we don’t want to come off as entitled or ungrateful. Sometimes we may not have as much visibility into what’s happening financially for the team or the organization. So it can even be a bit tricky to gauge this. And there’s many different pointers and kind of subtleties to look for to assess that in that chapter. But again, I’ll talk about some of the pitfalls that I see happen the most with this. And by and far with the money conversation is that people focus too much on the past and using what they have already accomplished to justify a pay raise. Instead of focusing, yes, past accomplishments do suggest future results, right? But you also need to future pace. You also need to project and help your manager create the case that if I am promoted to this next level and given the compensation that comes along with it, then that will mean it opens up these opportunities. It means that I will have the ability to oversee bigger accounts, for example, that will have a bigger ROI for the organization. So you have to talk about the future ROI as well. It’s the past, but it’s also the future and what you will be capable of going forward. And then the second thing on that is I don’t think anybody goes to their boss and says, you know, I’ve been doing this job. I deserve a raise. That may be true. You may and I would say I’m sure there are a lot of people listening who are undercompensated and very deserving of that, but that is not going to be a convincing case. It is much better to use language that is grounded in fairness. And so what I mean is using phrases like, I would like to discuss adjusting my compensation to reflect my current level of performance. That is totally different than saying, I’ve worked hard, I deserve it. It’s more so coming from this frame of we’re righting the scales, right? And as humans, we are much more disposed to wanting to do that. We want things to feel fair for the other person. So if you can use language around adjustment, I want to make sure it’s reflective or we’re in sync with market rates, that my compensation is commensurate with my colleagues, whatever it is, that language is going to go over much better.

Eddie Turner
Thank you for that. We appreciate you sharing that, Melody. Very helpful to a lot of our audience. And yes, Hung Yock, you’re quite welcome. We appreciate your acknowledgement there as well and again being a part of our live discussion.

Melody, what is the most important message you want those who have joined us and who will hear the podcast replay later to take away from our conversation?

Melody Wilding
Yeah. Two things I mentioned earlier. That idea of you have more power than you think. You can have and operate from a position of personal power even when you don’t have positional power. And you teach people how to treat you. If you are advocating for yourself, if you stand behind your ideas diplomatically and tactfully, then other people respond to that and they see you as leadership material. And that was something we talked a lot about on when you came on my show on the episode of the podcast. And I just think that is such a powerful message for people to realize that we can shape the dynamics around us and how people perceive us.

Eddie Turner
Excellent. And what is the favorite piece of leadership advice you’ve received or your favorite quote that you use that helps you to keep leading?

Melody Wilding
Oh, let’s see. What is the phrase that never be the smartest person in the room? I had a manager say that to me earlier on in my career and that has stuck with me ever since. So I try to make sure I am constantly surrounding myself with people that are wiser, smarter, more experienced than I am and just soaking in that wisdom.

Eddie Turner
Fantastic. Thank you for sharing. Ladies and gentlemen, I’m going to encourage you to visit Melodywilding.com, connect with her on social media. Get your copy of *Managing Up* and *Trust Yourself*. Melody, thank you so much again for being a guest on the Keep Leading podcast.

Melody Wilding
It was my pleasure. Thank you so much, Eddie.

Eddie Turner
And thank you for joining. That concludes this episode of the Keep Leading podcast everyone where we learned today about the power and how to manage up from Melody Wilding. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is an action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 164 | Melody Wilding | Managing Up appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Keep On Pushing

Episode Summary
Are you ready to be inspired by an extraordinary tale of resilience, determination, and triumph? Listen to this episode of the Keep Leading!® Podcast, where I have the honor of interviewing Devon Harris, a legendary figure who embodies the spirit of perseverance and leadership.

Don’t miss this captivating interview that motivates and prepares you to push through life’s challenges.

Stay inspired, stay motivated, and Keep Leading!®

Keep Leading!® Live

Keep Leading!® Video Shorts

About Devon Harris
Devon Harris grew up in a violent ghetto in Kingston, Jamaica, but his positive attitude and determination led him to success. He graduated from the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in England, received a Queen’s Commission in 1985, and served as a Captain in the Jamaica Defense Force until 1992.

He joined the first Jamaican bobsled team and competed in the 1988 Olympic Games in Calgary, inspiring the Disney movie Cool Runnings. He also competed in the 1992 and 1998 Winter Olympics.

Devon founded the Keep On Pushing Foundation in 2006 to support education in disadvantaged communities and currently runs breakfast and school supplies programs. As an athlete ambassador for Right to Play, he supports child development through sports in refugee camps. Devon has been recognized as an Olympian For Life by the World Olympian Association. He authored the motivational children’s book Yes, I Can! and the semi-autobiographical motivational book “Keep On Pushing: Hot Lessons From Cool Runnings.”

Website
https://devonharris.com/

Other Website
https://keeponpushing.org/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/keynotespeakerdevonharris/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/keeppushing

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/officialdevonharris/

Leadership Quote
“If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.” —John Quincy Adams

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Connect with Eddie Turner
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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie
Hello and welcome to another live recording of the Keep Leading podcast. A program dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speeches. My goal is to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading.

I’m streaming live today on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. If you’re joining us, please let us know that you’re here and where you’re joining us from. We want to know which part of the world that you are in. And share your reactions. Some folks are able to type a comment in the comment section, or if you have a question, type your question in the in the comment section and we’ll answer your question. If you can’t do that, uh some let us know how they’re feeling by reacting with an emoticon. We’ll accept that as well. Hit that share button and you can share this to the feed of your colleagues so that they can see the recording that will stay here on uh the social media channels uh afterwards.

If you’re not following my guest already, you’re going to want to do so. I encourage you to follow him on social media.

Are you ready to be inspired by an extraordinary tale of resilience, determination, and triumph? If so, you’re in the right place. Because today I have the extraordinary honor of interviewing Devon Harris, a legendary man who embodies the spirit of perseverance and leadership. He is an international keynote speaker and the one of the founding members of the original Jamaican Bobsled team. Now, he grew up in a violent ghetto in Kingston, Jamaica. But his positive attitude and determination led him to success. He graduated from the Royal Military Academy in England and received a Queen’s Commission in 1985. He then went on to serve as the captain in the Jamaican Defenses until 1992. He joined the first Jamaican Bobsled team and competed in the 1988 Olympic Games in Calgary, inspiring the famous movie, Disney movie, Cool Runnings, one of my all-time favorites. He also competed in the 1992 and 1998 uh Winter Olympics.

Devon Harris founded the Keep on Pushing Foundation in 2006 to support education in disadvantaged communities and currently runs breakfast and school supply programs. As an athlete and ambassador for Right to Play, he supports child development through sports and refugee camps, and he is the author of the book, Keep on Pushing, Hot Lessons from Cool Runnings.

Devon, welcome to the Keep Leading podcast.

Devon
Eddie, thank you so much for having me, man. I absolutely love uh the title, Keep Leading. You know, my my mantra is keep on pushing and so clearly there’s a some synergy there, the keep. Um but I think what both both of us are saying is that whatever when it comes on to success, Eddie, it’s it’s not a one and done, right? It’s consistency. You don’t just lead once. You you don’t just, you know, push towards a goal once. It you have to keep at it. So, yeah, I’m I’m really happy to be here with you.

Eddie
Well, I’m it’s an honor to have you and I’m glad you uh honed in on that because I absolutely or it’s a never when I saw the title of your show that uh you were so kind to have me on. If you haven’t seen this episode, folks, uh Devon had me on the Keep Pushing talk show. Keep on pushing talk show. And yes, uh this idea that success, uh leadership, pushing for perseverance, it is not a one and done. It is something we must continuously do. So we’re on the same wavelength there and I labored long and hard to come up with my my title and that was my thought. So it’s good to know that we’re we’re right here, my friend.

Eddie
Now, I I I got to ask you, you know, I talked about it in the in the intro, you know, most people uh who are tuning in and who will hear this or as the as a regular podcast and not just see this video, they have seen Cool Runnings. And I have talked to you a couple of times, but I have not asked you this question until now.

Devon
Mhm.

Eddie
Which member that is on there, uh and I’m going to show right now for those who are listening to audio, you won’t see it, but video, here’s the original Bobsled team, Jamaican Bobsled team members…. And in the Disney movie, which one represents you?

Devon
Well, Eddie, you know, I like to tell people I was the handsome one, but you know, whenever I do that, people just burst out laughing. They’re like, there’s nothing handsome about you. So what are you going to do? Um the truth is that the characters in the movie are very different from real life characters. So if I had to choose one, I would say I was Yul Brenner, played by Malik Yuba that Really?

Devon
Well, you may remember, he’s the guy that wanted to go to Buckingham Palace to live. He was a dreamer. And that’s how I see myself as well, a dreamer. And and so I I see my personality, my character, uh my personality most uh closely aligned to his.

Eddie
How about that? See, now I was thinking, okay, I knew from your background, you wouldn’t have been the the the the rich kid. But I thought you were more the gruff one and so I thought you were going to tell me you were Derice, okay?

Devon
Yes. And and that’s the thing though, you know, when you I’m sure we can all see elements of our own personalities and characters in the different characters in the movie. You know, Derice was a leader, he was a team captain. I was a captain in the army. On that very first team though, Dudley Stokes was the driver and team captain. Uh so but yeah, I’d say um Malik, not because he was a mean one and you know, I am a little bit intense when I compete, there’s no doubt about that. But yeah, I love the fact that uh you know, he he was very frustrated with his current situation in life and wanted better and was eager, let’s say, to get better. So I related.

Eddie
Yes. He was also the strongest one on the team, right? He was the toughest one.

Devon
up here, yes. I I would say I was the strongest one on the team, but you know, I did have some muscles. I had a few.

Eddie
I have to tell you something. Uh until I was getting ready for this interview, I had never watched the actual original footage. I only knew what was in the movie. So I watched that original footage and it I was even more impressed with what you all accomplished because as as as uh if you watch the original footage from the Olympic uh team, you see how you all came around that bend and it wasn’t just that that thing flipped over. You guys could have really been seriously hurt or even killed.

Devon
You know, that’s the thing. I I remember when I just started uh Bobsledding, Eddie, my dad was watching some footage and he just sat there in silence staring at the screen, right? And then he goes, but this thing is really dangerous. And I go, yeah, that’s why we wear a helmet.

Eddie
Oh my goodness.

Devon
But um yeah, you know, here’s the thing, the the the crash um looked way more violent than it felt. I’m not saying it wasn’t violent. I mean, there’s no way you’re going to crash in a bobsled and not be prone to injury or even death, you know? And and definitely that crash in ’88 was right right up there in terms of how badly it could have ended. But uh you know, honestly, I was in the sled, like my hit my head hit the ice and all I felt was embarrassment, man. I was like, oh my God, we crashed in front of the entire world. How embarrassing, how awful it was, you know, but yeah, we walked away. Like hey, did that.

Eddie
You got up, you walked away and you walked away with uh new lessons. Tell us about some of those lessons you walked away with.

Devon
You know, well, um I want to the first thing I want to say about that is just, you know, how far a little bit of gratitude um and um graciousness can can take you. You know, when we were walking up that breaking stretch, I was as embarrassed uh like nobody’s business and trying to exit stage left and you know, the the the crowd there in Calgary at the track that day were they were so gracious, Eddie. People just started to cheer. We love you, we love you. I remember one guy reached over the track to shake my hand and I had to shake practically every other hand as I tried to get off.

Eddie
I noticed that.

Devon
Yes…. And I’ll tell you this as a kind of a side note, you know, when a Jamaican tells you soon come, be worried because that could be five minutes, could be five years, could be 30 something years. Okay. Because after that crash, they asked me, I think ABC was uh the channel at the time carrying the Olympics. They asked me to come do an interview. And think about it though, I’m 22 years old. I just failed in front of the entire world. What the hell do you say to on live TV? I didn’t know what to say. So I told them soon come. I haven’t been yet. I think that’s I think they’re still looking for me. Oh my.

Um the the one there are many lessons, but I think the one thing that all of us took away from that particular crash was um this was not the end. It made us more resolute. We were so much more determined now because we we actually believed in ourselves and we were annoyed with ourselves for crashing, failing, in our mind um bringing disgrace to our country, but perhaps even worse, giving credence to the people who believed we could not do this. We were not we did not belong. And so um ending like that with a spectacular crash just made us more determined, more resolute to come back and prove the naysayers wrong.

Eddie
Yes, you were carried literally the weight of the world on your shoulders as you mentioned because of not just your own personal and familial pride, but the pride of your nation, especially being the first. But you still accomplished so much. So much so, you made a you wrote a great blog a couple of days ago where you talked about the role that failure plays in success. Can you just talk about how that dovetails off of what you’re talking about here?

Devon
Yeah, man. I actually, you know, as a motivational keynote speaker, I do have these conversations around failure and I use that crash and, you know, ask the audience how many people have ever failed? How many people have ever failed and felt like a loser on international TV? And that’s exactly, if you watch the footage, that’s what it felt like. Um but here’s the thing about failure. Yes, it sucks. It doesn’t feel good. Nobody, no honest person will tell you, yeah, it’s fine. No, it doesn’t feel good, but it’s such a necessary part of our success journey. And if you are not failing, it means that you’re sitting in your little comfort zone and you’re not dreaming enough, you’re not trying enough, you’re not you know, pushing yourself hard enough uh to forget, you know, achieving something spectacular. You’re not pushing yourself to become all that you can be. And and so you might sit there thinking, well, this is nice and comfortable and I’m doing okay, but you’re you’re inadvertently failing because we do live in a a world that is constantly changing and if you’re not growing, you’re regressing, you’re failing. So, yeah, I would encourage challenge everyone to yeah, kind of step out there, you know, keep keep on pushing, keep pushing the boundaries, keep pushing what is possible for you. And yes, um every now and again you’re going to experience these setbacks, these failures and you use them as um as a learning tool. You use them as motivation to push yourself forward.

Eddie
As you did and you set the example by getting up and competing two more times in the Olympics. Uh most people can’t say they’ve done it once. You’ve done it three times and so uh you’re living what you preach.

Devon
Well, you know, I hit my head on the first one and uh I’m not responsible for my actions after that.

Eddie
Well, uh we won’t uh gloss over the fact that you mentioned that this is something you talk about in your keynote speeches. So we mentioned in the bio and we’ll mention it again here that Devon Harris is an international keynote speaker where he spreads his message and to book him, you uh visit his website Devonharris.com to be able to book him.

Devon
And thank you for that. I like to think that I’m the easiest guy to find, Eddie. So yeah, Devonharris.com.

Eddie
Excellent. Well, we have uh joining us from LinkedIn, Troy Ottmer. Troy says thanks for sharing. Troy, thank you for joining us and thank you for letting us know that you’re here and sharing your reaction. If you are listening to this conversation with Devon Harris where we’re talking about the need to keep on pushing, uh we invite you to share your reaction and if you have any questions, ask him as well.

We will pause just for a moment to acknowledge the sponsor of the Keep Leading podcast. If a single employee’s indecision can cost an organization $10,000 to a million dollars, imagine the potential financial impact when more individuals are added to this indecision equation. It can spiral out of control very quickly. The solution, Decision X…. It’s a bespoke on-demand service designed to help your leaders overcome indecision and move forward with their work. Visit Papillon MDC and discover how you can help your team get unstuck, shift perspective, and advance today. And for those who are listening to the audio and not seeing the graphic on the screen, that’s Papillon, p a p i l l o n mdc.ca. Uh my wonderful friends there in Canada. And as a reminder, the Keep Leading podcast is uh available not just in this video format, but on audio and it is part of the C Suite Radio Network. Together, we’re turning the volume up on business. Visit c-suiteradio.com and listen to the Keep Leading podcast and all the other great business podcasts we have there.

All right, Devon, well, I am absolutely enjoying uh this conversation with you as we learn more about this idea of keep on pushing and it’s a continuous action. Please tell us a little bit if you will about the great work of your foundation that you created.

Devon
Indeed, thank you. Um the Keep on Pushing Foundation. I notice everything has this keep on pushing thing. Hey, I’m a Bobsledder, man. That’s all we know how to do. Um but you know, I I I think you mentioned that I’m from a rough neighborhood in Kingston, Olympic Gardens, believe it or not. Uh one of the uh really challenging, impoverished, violent neighborhood. And so this is back in 2006, I was visiting Jamaica, went back to the old neighborhood, went to my old elementary school and was speaking to the principal and um he proceeded to tell me that a lot of the kids attending school were turning up in the mornings without breakfast. They were hungry. And I think we know that if you’re hungry, you don’t learn. If you don’t learn, you don’t get educated. You don’t get educated then it’s kind of difficult to become a uh uh contributing member of society. And in Olympic Gardens and places like that around the world, you know, if you’ve missed the bus, if you miss the bus, you’ve missed the bus, as it were. And I know what that, you know, growing up in that environment uh felt like.

So we started the the the the foundation, Keep on Pushing and we started supporting a breakfast program at the school. We have we have fed about six 6,500 students there now so far um in that one particular school, but we have had a school supplies program. So every September uh the every child in the school gets a book bag with school supplies in it, you know, notebooks, pencils and so on and so forth. We have supported about 10 schools and in the old neighborhood over the years. Um we’re actually in the process of we just established a computer lab at the school actually and in the process of doing a second one at another school. And the goal here is not just to provide the digital training for the kids in the school, but eventually to provide uh similar kind of training for to the young people in the neighborhood who are, you know, clearly not in school, but who could benefit from that kind of knowledge and hopefully develop them to the point where they can be contributing in the job market and or starting their own business.

Eddie
Well, I applaud you and the great work that your foundation is doing and I saw some of the staggering numbers of how many people you’ve helped and that’s just people you’ve put food in their mouths. But I don’t think you even know the impact you fully have had on people because of what they’ve been able to do as a result or will do in the future.

Devon
I think all of us I think though Eddie benefit from that, you know, call it pay it forward if you will, but I think that, you know, you and I have had mentors in our lives who um we don’t know how many generations back it went where somebody did one this one little thing for someone else who helped somebody who helped somebody and here we are, you know, benefiting uh from that uh kind of support and and and help. And so if I can do something to help one child, one person, then I’m happy to do it.

Eddie
Outstanding. And I want to acknowledge we are um broadcasting on LinkedIn, YouTube, and Facebook. Uh we have Dr. Terry Jackson joining us on Facebook and he is uh sending you an emoji saying thumbs up. He likes what you’re saying, likes what you’re doing. So outstanding work there.

Now, when you talk about when you how you went back to help and you realized that this was the biggest area that you could help in, it’s not easy to escape the kind of circumstances you were able to escape from and then to succeed. What advice do you give other young men who find themselves or young people who find themselves facing similar circumstances as to how they can do the same?…

Devon
Yeah, it’s you know, it’s uh it’s when you’re in the middle of it and you’re looking out and dreaming, it can seem like a world away and the circumstances that you find yourself in can feel somewhat overwhelming, you know, quite daunting. But I would encourage them not to stop dreaming, you know, to to recognize that yes, there is a world outside of your immediate circles, your immediate circumstances. Um and not to be discouraged or be allow yourself to be phased by it. Um but then to follow up that dreaming with working. Like, you know, you there’s work that needs to be done. So uh you know, I tell kids all the time, your most important job right now is to get educated. So focus on um getting as much as you can out of school. Um and allow that work that you’re doing to fuel the dreams that you have uh you know, beyond school after after you’ve gotten up. And and then don’t don’t allow others to trample your dreams. Don’t allow them to discourage you, you know, they there are a lot of people who are afraid to dream big and to push themselves outside of of of what they know. Um and sometimes when they are trampling on your dream, is not because they mean you any ill will, they are projecting their own insecurity and lack of belief in themselves. Don’t allow that to stop you. Keep pushing yourself.

Eddie
Excellent advice. Thank you for sharing that. Now, in in this ties back to what you were also saying uh about which character you played, right? Because you’re you’re a dreamer and you’re a vision. Now, some people can only dream as far as what they have seen or experienced or heard of. Is there any advice for how to have a dream when you haven’t even seen it? Like you went on to become a military uh leader, you know? Is that something you’d seen?

Devon
Uh certainly heard of. So so here’s the thing. I I I something I I I heard a while back um and I’ve said it many times, go as far as you can see.

Eddie
Mhm.

Devon
But when you get there, you’ll see further. And if you think about just in the physical.

Eddie
Go as far as you can see and when you get there, you’ll see further.

Devon
You will. You absolutely will. And when I was growing up in in the hood, um yes, I I I dreamt of being an army officer. And then I also had this dream of being an Olympian, not a winter Olympian to be honest, but um I became an army officer and then I’m like, whoa, what are you going to do with the rest of your life? I’m 21. Oh yeah, the Olympics. And then I ended up on the Bobsled team. And I started to see a world that I never could have imagined from my vantage point back in the old neighborhood. Uh but because I had the courage and I put the work into to go as far as I could see at the time, being an army officer, that then opened up new doors, opened up a new vantage point from which I could look further out into the world and here we are. You and I having a conversation.

Eddie
Here we are indeed. Wouldn’t be otherwise. So that’s excellent advice. I like that. I’m going to actually share that even separately because that that’s that’s a powerful piece of advice because as you said, it’s not it’s one thing to dream, but you have to put work behind the dream. Mhm. Right? And so this is if you’re not sure where to get started, I’m just going to have to say it again because that’s so so beautiful. Go as far as you can see and then when you get there, you’ll see further. Excellent advice.

Well, I uh I I also want to share with with folks something else that I saw that you wrote here about the idea of the the the the mindset that it takes to become an Olympian and how that mindset gets transferred to other areas of life as you have done. Mhm. Tell us about that that mindset.

Devon
You know, they say that most Olympians, Eddie, are inspired by other Olympians. So you’re a young kid and you see a guy or a girl and you’re like, wow, I want to do that. I don’t know if I could do that. And that’s true for me. Long story short, I’m 15 years old and I’m watching this program ABC Wide World of Sports, Road to Moscow because the Olympics were coming up in 1980 in in Moscow. And I’m seeing, you know, when you think of an Olympian, you think of these superhuman people. And I realized that they were very average and ordinary. But but they had these extraordinary dreams and they had these an equally extraordinary desire to do the work to realize those dreams. And and so when you think of an Olympic, having an Olympic mindset, it it is this dare to dream kind of mindset…. That’s where it starts, you know, with this clarity of what you want to achieve and then having the discipline, having the drive, having the determination, um the resilience to go after it. It’s definitely not an easy road and nothing that you dream of that that is huge. If you want to achieve in an extraordinary way, you are going to be challenged. Life is going to test you and you have to now be willing to be frustrated and then pick yourself up and keep on pushing.

Eddie
Keep pick yourself up and keep on pushing. Excellent. Devon, I could talk to you for hours. But tell me something, what is the most important message you want those who are listening to us live, uh watching us live or who will listen to this later on as a podcast, what’s the most important message you want them to take away from our conversation?

Devon
You know, all of us um Eddie, as individuals and as teams as well, you know, because we’re talking to leaders who are leading, you know, people in their charge. We have to we all face these situations, circumstances that are beyond our control, right? We didn’t create them, but we have to deal with them. Um and I want them to know that your current circumstances don’t dictate where you can end up. It might dictate if you allow it, it will dictate where you end up, but it doesn’t have to. And that’s you know, part and parcel of this keep on pushing mentality. I don’t want to sound too much like a cliche here, but it’s just to kind of you know, as we talk about dreams, you have to be able to take some time to visualize that that other world that you think you’d want to, I should live, that you deserve to live. And then look, it’s not an easy road. Uh it requires effort. It requires you bouncing back from setbacks and and all of that and also collaborating with other people. So hey, don’t settle for where you find yourself. Team up with some people, go pursue some big dreams and I promise you if you stay in the game long enough, you’ll make it happen.

Eddie
Don’t settle for where you find yourself. I love it. Excellent. And I always ask, what is your favorite quote or piece of advice you’ve received that you use that helps you keep leading?

Devon
Um uh jeez, I’m drawing a blank here. It’s uh it says what I’m paraphrasing, what’s inside of what’s behind you and in front of you is totally and in and completely insignificant to what lies inside of you.

Eddie
Beautiful. Thank you very much. And we want to reiterate, folks, that uh Devon Harris has a book available. That book is Keep on Pushing, Hot Lessons from Cool Runnings. And of course, if you haven’t seen the movie Cool Runnings, you’ll definitely want to check it out uh especially now. And uh he is a keynote speaker. You can book him by visiting uh I was going to say keeponpushing.com. By visiting Devonharris.com and you’ll see the picture there of his website where he’s talking about how you can learn to keep on pushing. Devon, thank you so much for being here today. It’s been an encouraging, inspiring conversation uh to have you here.

Devon
Eddie, thank you for having me and yes, keep on leading, my friend.

Eddie
Thank you. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of the live recording of the Keep Leading podcast. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 163 | Devon Harris | Keep On Pushing appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Leading In the New World of Work

Episode Summary
Join Eddie Turner on the Keep Leading Podcast for an insightful conversation with Dina Smith as they explore the evolving landscape of leadership. Discover why the expectations and emotional demands on leaders have reached unprecedented heights, and learn about the concept of emotional labor and its impact.

In this episode, Dina presents an intriguing analogy to illustrate leadership dynamics. Through Dina’s unique framework, you will gain valuable insights into effectively managing triggers.

Stay inspired, stay motivated, and Keep Leading!®

Keep Leading!® Live

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About Dina Smith
Dina Smith is a seasoned leader and executive coach with a 25-year proven track record of helping individuals and teams excel. Utilizing her executive experience and expertise in organizational psychology, Dina coaches senior leaders and teams at world-renowned brands such as Adobe, Netflix, PwC, Gap, Gilead, Dropbox, Stripe, and numerous high-growth companies.

Dina has authored over 60 articles on leadership and career success for publications like the Harvard Business Review and is frequently featured in international media outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, Newsweek, and the BBC. She is also the author of “Emotionally Charged: How to Lead in the New World of Work” (Oxford University Press, 2025).

Website
https://www.dinadsmith.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dina-denham-smith/

Dina’s Book

Leadership Quote
“You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn to surf.” – Jon Kabat-Zinn

Best advice: Sleep on it

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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner
Hello.
Welcome to Keep Leading Live.
Keep Leading Live and the Keep Leading podcast are dedicated to leadership development and insights.
I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator.
I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional keynote speeches.
My goal is to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading.
Today, we are broadcasting on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube.
If you are joining us on one of these channels, please let us know you’re here by commenting in the comment section.
You can ask a question.
And if you’re not already following my guest today, I’m going to encourage you to follow my guest.
You’re going to want to stay connected with my guest today, and you’re going to find out why in just a moment.

Uh, DDI just released a report, their leadership report, the leadership landscape, and it’s the longest one of its type, uh, that’s been running for the last 11 years.
And in it, they revealed what is impacting leaders today unlike ever before.
And what it shows is that there are a lot of vulnerabilities and there’s some apprehension among leaders about what they need to do to lead more effectively in the world of work.
Uh, never before have you seen perhaps where it’s no longer, hey, we’re going to eliminate the low performers.
Now we’re actually eliminating top performers who are doing well.
Why?
AI.
There’s just certain things you don’t need managed anymore if it could be automated.
So there’s a lot of uncertainty.
How can we as leaders deal with it?
How can you and I learn how to lead in the new world of work?
To answer that question and to explain it, I have the expert for us today.
My expert guest today is Dina Denham Smith, and she has written a new book entitled Emotionally Charged, how to lead in the new world of work, where she’s going to provide us the answers.
Dina, welcome to Keep Leading Live.

Dina Denham Smith
Hey, Eddie.
It’s good to be here.

Eddie Turner
It is so good to be with you.
I’m excited to have you.
Uh, it’s been a while since we saw each other.
The last time we saw each other, uh, we were with great friends in London.

Dina Denham Smith
We were.
We were.

Eddie Turner
For those who might hear the podcast later versus seeing it live, uh, us with our great friends in London at the Thinkers 50 celebration.

Dina Denham Smith
Oh, so fun you pulled that photo up.
Yeah, there we are, huh?

Eddie Turner
Yes, yes.
It’s a great memory that makes me smile.
So I wanted to share that.
It’s so good to have you back and to be together for this conversation.
Uh, I I told people that you’re the author of a new book that’s on Oxford University Press.
I did not tell people, however, that you are, um, an author, prolific author, uh, with HBR, Fast Company, and Forbes.
And in fact, I just shared your new article that got released yesterday.
Uh, fantastic article that you released.
So tell us a little bit more about you that I may have left out that our audience needs to know.

Dina Denham Smith
Well, gosh, uh, like you, an executive coach, uh, based in a different geography.
I’m up here in the Bay Area of California.
Um, and then, of course, we’re so much more than our professional roles, right?
So I’m a mom, I’m a wife, I try to be a great friend.
I’m a foodie, an equestrian, um, an optimist, and uh, love socializing.

Eddie Turner
All right.
[laughter]
Well, we know that you excel at all of the above, and today you’re going to help us understand, uh, just why we need to adjust, uh, uh, what we can do to adjust to be able to lead in the new world of work.
And so I’m going to actually share that with, uh, with our our our folks who are watching so they’ll be able to see this book so that they know what they’re going to need to look for on the Amazon bookshelves, uh, out there.
Tell us, what made you write Emotionally Charged?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, well, so, you know, as an executive coach, I really have the the honor, um, and the privilege of being on the front lines with, you know, senior leaders every day, um, of every week…. And what I noticed, especially over the course of the pandemic, was the extent to which the workplace has changed.
So I was a leader, um, in sort of before I became an executive coach, and the striking difference in terms of the emotional demands on leaders was just super apparent.
So I stepped back from that and I thought about like, well, what exactly is happening here?
And there were sort of four major shifts that have amounted in these exceptional emotional demands on leaders.
So first, um, you know, we do so much more work through virtual technologies.
There’s the rise of AI, as you’ve already mentioned.
There’s so much fear and sort of rapid obsolescence in the workplace.
We have heightened employee expectations for supportive leaders and mentally healthy workplaces.
And then we have an increasingly diverse and polarized workforce.
Well, managing sort of within and across these new trends has dramatically increased the emotional demands on leaders, right?
It’s harder to build trust, um, and motivate people from a distance, for example.
It is there’s more conflict in a more diverse and polarized workforce.
You there is a clear expectation that you support your employees with personal struggles, but you’re still there to drive results.
So the real problem is that leaders to this point have not been equipped with sort of the skills and the resources to be successful against these emotional demands.
And so what my co-author, Alicia Grandy, and I did was write a book to solve for this gap.
And so Emotionally Charged is, um, really chalk full of science-backed, proven, practical strategies for navigating these new emotional complexities that leaders are dealing with day in and day out.

Eddie Turner
And that phrase gives some leaders, um, an uncomfortable feeling when they just we just say the word emotions.

Dina Denham Smith
Mhm.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, it’s true.
It’s absolutely true and and it’s a real shame.
Um, there are so many myths and misconceptions, um, that are so sticky, um, you know, despite just decades of evidence about like the value of emotions in navigating our careers and improving relations and improving our performance, in leading more effectively and being more inspiring.
Like the evidence is so complete, um, but there’s just a bunch of myths and misconceptions that have stuck around in the workplace that have led to people sort of ignoring, suppressing, um, and devaluing emotions.
And meanwhile, anytime you have a human in the room, you are going to have emotions, right?
And thinking’s great for logic, but emotions are what lead to action.
Um, and so to ignore them at work is really to your peril.

Eddie Turner
Thank you.
Yes, many leaders feel like, especially from a certain time period, that, you know, I don’t have time for emotions.
I need people that show up a certain way and they think what’s strong and what’s tough, right?
But as you said, anytime you have people, they have emotions, whether you’re forcing them to suppress them or you’re allowing them to be nurtured and to use those emotions effectively at their place of employment.

Dina Denham Smith
Right.
Both your own, both your own emotions, right?
And other’s emotions.
Like leaders are the emotional architects of their organizations.
Um, and so they have a super important role just not only in regulating their own emotions and unpacking and understanding those, but also working with the emotions of other people at work.
Um, so it is it’s a very substantial aspect of their role, but it’s nowhere on the job description.

Eddie Turner
Yes, and so we define that as emotional intelligence when we have the understanding of our own emotions and others and then how to, uh, navigate them and successfully use them in that manner.

Dina Denham Smith
Mhm.

Eddie Turner
Now, you make a point in your book that you refer to as the emotional labor.
How does that surface in what we’re talking about here and balancing emotional intelligence and the effective use of leading our teams?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah.
So emotional intelligence is sort of like this general capacity.
Um, and emotional labor is actually the work that we do to display the right emotions at any given moment at work.
So all workplaces have these unwritten rules about what emotions are okay, in what amounts and displayed by whom.
Emotional labor is sort of the work we’re doing behind the scenes to conform to those unwritten rules.
And so for leaders, what this can look like is, you know, rallying their team even though they’re exhausted or they’re unsure they even believe in the goal, right?
It looks like code switching across all the different stakeholder groups…. You know, how you show up with the board is going to be very different than how you show up with your team versus your peers.
So it’s it’s managing that.
We have these paradoxical emotional expectations for leaders these days that are that are truly superhuman.
Be confident, but be humble, right?
Be sensitive and caring, but drive results.
Be composed in the face of challenges, but just enough human, right?
Like we are asking for emotional gymnastics.
And then leaders face some really weighty decisions where they’re affecting other people’s lives, layoffs, letting people go, um, because of performance.
You know, doing this requires emotional labor.
So leaders actually do this obscene amount of emotional labor in their roles, especially in the new world of work.
Um, but it is hasn’t been acknowledged really heretofore.
Um, and so it goes un sort of untrained.
And the real problem with that with that is, um, then the first line of defense quite naturally is to hide, ignore, suppress, or fake emotions.
Um, that makes perfect sense, right?
And sometimes it’s actually the right answer in a given moment, right?
But, um, but it largely goes untrained and so leaders don’t necessarily have the skills that they need to manage all of the emotions that they’re expected to manage well.
Um, so where can they get these skills?

Dina Denham Smith
Well, my book, Eddie, that’s what this book is filled with.
It is filled with the skills that one needs to understand and regulate their own emotions, um, as well as understand and regulate the emotions of others in the workplace.
And there there are all of these different tools and these different tools are fit for use.
So there’s certain things, I actually just did a short little HBR on it as well.
Like what can you do if you know you’re going into an emotionally charged situation?
There’s specific tools for that versus.

Eddie Turner
Give us one.
If you’re going into an emotionally charged situation, what’s one strategy we can employ?

Dina Denham Smith
I highly recommend that you employ one of the greatest tools that athletes use, which is visualization.
So what I want you to do, if you are going into a meeting where you know the temperature is going to run high, is in your mind, mentally rehearse that situation.
Think about how you’re going to open the meeting.
Think about the meetings of potential like the the moments of potential tension.
Think about how you’re going to handle those.
Think about the how you want to show up in those moments and like really like close your eyes and see in your mind’s eye that meeting playing out in the way that would be most successful, right?

Eddie Turner
Excellent.
So visualization is one strategy we can use.

Dina Denham Smith
Mhm.
Absolutely.

Eddie Turner
Is there, uh, is there another strategy that you might want to use if visualization doesn’t quite work for you?

Dina Denham Smith
Um, yeah, absolutely.
Um, if you’re not into visualization, I which I I honestly recommend you try it.
It’s been proven to work for professionals, not just athletes too.
But, um, you know, another thing to really think about in advance is how can I modify this situation that I’m going in to bring down the emotional temperature for both me as well as other participants.
So let’s say you’ve got a very difficult decision or really bad news you need to be communicating to your team.
Um, think about like strategically ahead of time, the who, the what, the when, the where, like how can you set this meeting up in a way where like you’re kind of like setting the tone from the beginning, um, to, you know, like so instead of defaulting to the conference room next door, maybe you actually want to book a really sort of private space, you know, down the hall or on another floor.
Maybe you want to invite your HR partner or your your manager to join the meeting, right?
Like think about.

Eddie Turner
Well, that’s a good strategy.
That’s another good option for us to consider.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, no, there’s so that’s um that’s the whole.

Eddie Turner
So you gave us two good ones there.

Dina Denham Smith
Okay, good.

Eddie Turner
Good.
Thank you.
So, you know, I was trained under Dr. Heifetz at the Harvard Kennedy School and one of the things that he talks about, one of his famous sentences is about learning to disappoint people at a rate that they can stand.
And to do that, he uses the illustration of, uh, a containment of a pot where you allow it to boil to a certain point, boil, boil, boil, and then right before it’s about to explode before it gets out of control, you take the lid off and you allow it to decompress.
So when I saw your opening chapter in your book from a simmer to a boil, how working leadership have changed, you had me right there because I immediately thought back to Dr…. Heifetz.
So tell us about that, going from a simmer to a boil.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, so the the workplace trends that I mentioned a few minutes ago about sort of the rise of, um, virtual technologies to communicate, the rise of AI, these increased employee expectations for supportive leaders and mentally healthy workplaces and an increasingly polarized workforce.
Those those trends were sort of like simmering in the background and the pandemic just turned up the gas on all of them.
So I think back even to my coaching practice.
Before the pandemic, I had a few clients that I would occasionally see on Zoom or Teams or whatever.
But a lot of people didn’t even, they weren’t even all that fluent in, you know, video teleconferencing.
And now everybody, right?
It’s it’s crazy to me.
Like sometimes you have people in the same building who are actually on video together.
Right?
So right?
So, so the pandemic was this inflection point.
So, um, sort of instead of the trends simmering along and allowing everybody to kind of like slowly over time get used to these trends, it just like boom, went to a boil.
Um, and it became so much for leaders so quickly.
You know what’s super fascinating though?
We did a, um, we did a survey of over, um, a couple hundred leaders for our book and we were looking at a variety of things including emotional burden and perceived stress and burnout in the leader population.
And it’s actually higher now than it was at the height of the pandemic.

Eddie Turner
Really?

Dina Denham Smith
And I yes.
And I think what that, um, strongly suggests is the cumulative effect of leading in this environment without being equipped, um, with sort of some of the skills for for handling the emotional complexities and then recovering, um, from a a role that is demanding in a new way.

Eddie Turner
How about that?
Well, thank you for sharing that startling statistic with us that does give us a lot of insight and, uh, amplifies the reason that the insights in your book are so important for us to keep in mind and follow.
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All right.
So, uh, want to switch back to our conversation here.
I am talking to the amazing Dina Denham Smith.
She is an executive coach, author, keynote speaker, and she writes for HBR, Fast Company, and Forbes.
And we’re discussing her book Emotionally Charged, how to lead in the new world of work.
One of the items that you help leaders with in your book, Dina, that I want like for you to explain to us, is this concept of being triggered.
How can we lead in the new world of work when we are triggered as a leader?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah.
Well, let’s just, um, say we all get triggered, right?
Um, we get triggered at work.
There are people, there are events, there are our environments that are personally triggering, right?
And oftentimes the typical reaction is either to sort of shut down and lock up how you’re actually feeling and paint on a smile, or or you react a bit quickly and possibly say or do something you regret.
Um, and ultimately both these reactions are not that helpful.
So then the question becomes in the face of a trigger, like how do you maintain your composure, um, without suppressing or ignoring your emotions?
Um, and so one of the, um, one of the frameworks that we offer in the book deals with specifically this.
And the framework is, uh, called Brave.
Um, and it stands for, um, proven, um, quick ways to deactivate yourself in the face of a trigger…. Um, and these are ways to, uh, regulate your emotions and maintain your composure sort of helpfully in ways that are, um, uh, that are beneficial for your performance.
So I’ll walk you through it really quick.
Um, so B is for breathe.
Sounds basic, sounds simple, right?
But in the face of a trigger, what typically happens is our breath gets really short, that spikes our spikes our heart rate.
And so what you want to do is just take a few deep breaths, lengthening your exhale, right?
This helps move you more into your parasympathetic nervous system from your fight or flight system.
R is for refocus.
Ground in the in the sensations in your body or what’s happening in the room.
The idea is to get your mind off of the trigger and onto something else.
Again, this is proven to help ground you.
A is for acceptance.
Too often, what we do when we feel something that we feel like we shouldn’t feel, like I’m so mad, I’m mad again, right?
We are just we are just escalating our emotions.
So acceptance is a scientifically proven strategy.
Um, and it’s so simple.
It’s just accepting how you feel as normal and natural given the circumstances.
So accept your emotions.
Uh, V is for verbalize, not necessarily out loud, but find a couple labels for how you’re feeling, um, because this helps shift you out of your limbic system into your prefrontal cortex.
So breathing, refocusing, accepting your emotions, and finding a couple labels through verbalizing your feelings are four ways that you can sort of quickly, quickly down regulate.
Um, and they’re they’re simple and that’s the point.
You can literally run through these in 30 seconds or less.
So let’s just say we’ve got a situation where you’ve been blindsided by somebody, um, in a meeting or your manager takes credit for your work or there’s some triggering situation and you just feel that like clench of your body or the rush of.

Eddie Turner
When you’re getting all tense.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, like we all feel it in different places, right?
But like we all know like when when all of a sudden we’ve gone from like zero to 60, right?
When you feel that, you know, ideally like run through these things, but if not, like one is better than none.
So take a couple deep breaths.
I like to just like feel the, um, my, uh, what are they?
Like my fingerprint.
Like have you ever tried that?
Like you can actually feel your fingerprint or look out the window, whatever it is, but get your mind off of it really quick.
And then say, um, of course it makes sense that I’d be feeling like frustrated and exposed right now.
Like boom, in 30 seconds or less, you will have really shifted your internal physiology in a way that enables you to be sort of calm and carry on.
E is for engage, right?
Which is, um, the idea that like move forward once you’ve had a chance to deactivate.
So.

Eddie Turner
All right.
Well, thank you for sharing that with us.
That’s helpful for us to keep in mind and it’s easy to remember.
And, uh, we have folks joining us from YouTube, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
On LinkedIn, Gary Bomzer wanted to, uh, amplify a point you made earlier that sometimes we might be in the same building but still on virtual.
And there are reasons for that, of course, but he, uh, is agreeing with you that it does a disservice to professionals to avoid human interaction.
So Gary, thank you for weighing in and being part of our discussion.
All right.
Now, I would like for you to tell us for folks who are listening to our conversation, Dina, and they’re taking in all this information and the good insights you share with us, what’s the main point you want them to walk away remembering?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, I think what I want, um, leaders to understand is, you know, emotions are not squishy.
They are fundamentally information and data that you can use to advance your career, to improve your relationships, to increase your performance, and and benefit your health.
So, um, by all means, like start tuning into them more and working with this.
It is it is only to your benefit to start attending to this other source of incredible intelligence, um, that that you can use for your benefit and the benefit of your team.
That would be one thing.
The second would be emotion skills are learnable.
Everything in our book is proven, it’s practical.
So no matter where you are on the spectrum of feeling like, um, this is really scary stuff.
Like I have never been trained in in emotions and how to deal with them to maybe you’ve got a lot of confidence in this area, we can all learn more.
Um, and so just know, have a growth mindset about this.
No matter where you are, you can advance yourself.
Um, and and the last.

Eddie Turner
And that is very important.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah.
Yeah, and the last thing real quick that I’d want leaders to understand is there’s something called the recovery paradox.
And that is the fact that the people who need the break the most are the least likely to take it.
So when you find yourself pushing through because like the mountain of work just never subsides, when you’re pushing through lunch, when you’re working in the evenings, when you’re putting in a bunch of hours on the weekend, you’re probably stuck in a stress spiral and this over time only degrades your performance and leads to burnout.
So, um, we didn’t get to talk about it, but I am such a huge proponent of leaders really taking care of themselves, um, because it benefits not just them, but everybody else in the workplace.

Eddie Turner
Outstanding.
Thank you, Dina.
And want to acknowledge Gary, uh, appreciate the comment earlier.
So thank you, Gary.
We appreciate you listening, watching, and being part of our live discussion.
Well, Dina, I always ask on the Keep Leading podcast, what is the quote that you use to help you keep leading?

Dina Denham Smith
Um, I I specifically love this quote from John Kabat-Zinn and it’s you can’t stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf.
I think it’s just such an empowered way to think about, um, how we can all rise to the challenges, which will just keep coming.

Eddie Turner
You can’t stop the waves, but you can always learn how to surf.
I like that.
Dina, thank you so much for being a guest today.
We want to remind everybody to go out and get a copy of, uh, your book Emotionally Charged, how to lead in the new world of work.
Uh, we’ll encourage people to go out and also to visit your website, Dina D Smith.com for those who are not seeing this on the screen, who’ll hear it on the podcast later.
Uh, stay connected with her, get with her on social media and learn more about her incredible body of work.
Thank you again for being a great guest, Dina.

Dina Denham Smith
Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Eddie Turner
And thank you for listening.
That concludes this episode, everyone.
I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position.
Leadership is action.
Leadership is an activity.
It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader.
We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all that we do.
So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 162 | Dina Smith | Leading In the New World of Work appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Ask

Episode Summary
Join Eddie Turner on the Keep Leading!® podcast as he interviews Jeff Wetzler, co-founder of Transcend, former international business consultant, and Teach for America executive.

Discover the transformative power of The Ask Approach™, a method Jeff reveals in his book Ask. This method emphasizes understanding what others genuinely think, know, and feel.

Learn how to:

• Awaken curiosity
• Pose quality questions
• Listen to Learn
• Make it safe for others to share
• Turn conversations into actionable insights

In a world rapidly evolving with AI, mastering these uniquely human skills to connect and learn from others has become more crucial than ever. Don’t miss this enlightening episode!

Keep Leading!® Live

About Jeff Wetzler
Dr. Jeff Wetzler is an author, entrepreneur, and highly sought-after keynote speaker. His book, “Ask: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You,” was an Amazon Editor’s Pick for Best Books of 2024, a Next Big Idea Club Top Leadership Book of 2024, and a “Must Read.” It quickly became a #1 new release in multiple categories.

Dr. Wetzler’s work is consistently showcased in publications ranging from Harvard Business Review and Fast Company to Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Psychology Today. He has provided guidance to business, NGO, and government leaders globally. He has delivered speeches at major corporations such as Microsoft, Google, Nestlé, and DaVita, as well as at startups and prominent nonprofits.

Blending a unique set of leadership experiences in business and education, Wetzler has served as a management consultant to some of the world’s top corporations, as a learning facilitator for leaders globally, as Chief Learning Officer at Teach For America, and most recently, as co-founder and co-CEO of Transcend, a nationally recognized and fast-growing innovation organization.

Jeff Wetzler earned a Doctorate in Adult Learning and Leadership from Columbia University and a Bachelor’s in Psychology from Brown University. He is an Aspen Global Leadership Network member and an Edmund Hillary Fellow.

Website
https://www.askapproach.com

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeff-wetzler-9ba3824/

Jeff’s Book

Leadership Quote
“Anyone who isn’t embarrassed by who they were last year probably isn’t learning enough.”
― Alain de Botton

Subscribe, share, and review on Apple Podcasts!
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Subscribe, share, and review on Spotify
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Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner
Hello, welcome to Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live, which is another edition of the Keep Leading podcast, is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of masterful keynote speeches, professional coaching, and facilitation.

We’re streaming live today on Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn. If you are joining us on one of these platforms, please let us know you’re here. Be a part of our discussion. If you have a question, feel free to type it into the comments and ask that question. If you are not able to ask a question, we are still excited when we see you respond with the emoticons. That lets us know how what we’re saying is landing with you.

If you’re not already following my guest today, you’re going to want to do so. My guest today is phenomenal and his thought leadership has him plastered everywhere. He’s won several awards for his book and it’s just receiving rave reviews from other thought leaders in the industry. How much better would you be as a leader if you genuinely understood how others think, how they feel, and what they know? What impact would this have on your personal and professional human interactions? If you believe there is value, you will want to listen to what my guest today says.

My guest today is here to help us discover the transformative power of the ask approach, a method he reveals in his best-selling book. My guest today is Dr. Jeff Wetzler. Dr. Jeff Wetzler is an acclaimed author, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker known for the book Ask: Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You. It is considered a top leadership book. In fact, I believe Kiplinger’s, the big finance folks, said it is the most important management book you will ever read. And that’s quite a statement to be made. His work is featured in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and other prestigious publications. He is the former chief learning officer for Teach for America and a host of other accolades, awards, and recognitions.

For this reason and others, I am extremely excited to have with us today Dr. Jeff Wetzler. Jeff, welcome to Keep Leading.

Jeff Wetzler
Thank you so much. It is wonderful to be with you.

Eddie Turner
Jeff, tell me what else I may have missed about you and your wonderful background.

Jeff Wetzler
Oh, well, you gave a very generous introduction. I don’t think you missed much. I’ll just say, I have spent my career toggling back and forth between the world of business and the world of education and that’s because my deepest passion is learning. I truly believe that learning is one of the most important superpowers for any person, especially any leader, especially at this moment of rapid change. I am just a complete nerd and junkie for learning of all different kinds, and in the book Ask, which we’ll talk about today, really learning from the people around us.

Eddie Turner
Well, that’s one of the reasons I fell in love with your work and you as a person because we share that passion, that geeking out about learning.

Jeff Wetzler
I can tell. Yeah.

Eddie Turner
Well, phenomenal. Well, you’re not the only impressive best-selling author and doctoral holder in your family. You are also married to the amazing Dr. Jennifer Wetzler, who was guest number 107 on the podcast.

Jeff Wetzler
Oh, look at that. That’s amazing. I am very, very fortunate and blessed to be married to Jennifer. And I know she really enjoyed the time speaking with you as well.

Eddie Turner
Well, it was wonderful to have her share her insights with my audience as well. So we want to definitely give a nod out to her. So Jeff, tell us about Ask.

Jeff Wetzler
Yes. Well, I’ll say first of all, what’s the problem that Ask is trying to solve? You alluded to it in your intro, but the problem and the reason I wrote the book really is that every single one of us is surrounded by people in our lives. That might be our co-workers, our bosses, people that we manage, our investors, our clients, partners. And the people in our lives hold tremendous insights and ideas and feedback and perspectives, and I believe that if we actually could find out what was in their head, what they really know and think, we would be so much better off. We would make better decisions together. We would innovate better together. We would save time, we would reduce errors, we would be closer in our relationships.

The problem is, far too often we don’t actually find out some of the most important things they are thinking and feeling. And we pay a huge cost for that. And that is prevalent all over the place in organizations. That’s the problem.

Eddie Turner
And in your book you cite that as the problem and the reason is that we don’t ask. Is it really that simple?

Jeff Wetzler
Well, I would say there’s a prior reason, which is the reason is they don’t tell us. One of the reasons why they don’t tell us is that they don’t think we’re curious. They don’t think we want to know. Okay. There are other reasons too. For example, they might be afraid to tell us their truth. They might not be sure how it’s going to be received or if we might resent them or take it out on them. Sometimes what they know doesn’t occur to them in words. They just have a gut feeling. It’s an intuition that they have and so they can’t put it into words. Sometimes they want to tell us but they’re too busy and they just feel like I’ve got too much going on.

So there’s a whole bunch of reasons why they don’t tell us. But the remedy to all of them is asking. And not just throwing questions at them, but asking in the right ways. And so we can talk about what are the different steps or approaches or practices of the ask approach to really tap into what other people think and feel and know.

Eddie Turner
Well, you said a lot there, and I’ll just pull one thread, and that is in my work in knowledge management, that’s part of what we used to say, Jeff, what you mentioned, at times people don’t know what they know.

Jeff Wetzler
Yes, that’s right.

Eddie Turner
They have so much experience and they’ve been doing a particular set of skills for so long and they’re experts that they’ve forgotten about those earlier stages and they’re on automatic. So it takes someone to come along and interview them and pull that knowledge out of their head and be able to catalog it into a repository for others to benefit from.

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, and I believe, I mean, that yeah, of course, the fancy word for what you’re saying is that their knowledge is tacit as opposed to being explicit. And when you help someone excavate their tacit knowledge and actually put into words what they know deep down, I believe it’s not just something you gain, it’s a gift to them too. It helps them actually see how much they do know and be able to package it and communicate it better to other people.

Eddie Turner
Excellent, excellent. Yes, we pull out the tacit knowledge, make it implicit.

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, explicit. Exactly.

Eddie Turner
I love it. So let’s look at the framework that you created to make this easier for people. You call this…

Jeff Wetzler
I have lost you, Eddie, if you’re talking, but I can talk through the steps of the ask approach.

Eddie Turner
Let’s try that again. Okay. I am going to show this in a different way. There we go. I think it’s going to appear now. All right, go ahead and just start explaining it now. I’ll give it on the screen for those who are watching.

Jeff Wetzler
Okay, perfect. The ask approach is a set of five practices that are all based in social science research, all tested out in action across different kinds of contexts and when put together give us the greatest chance of really unlocking that wisdom, unlocking the insights that other people know but may not be telling us. So I’ll just walk through each of the five steps very briefly.

Eddie Turner
Yes, and then for those the benefit of those who are going to get this as a download later on, I’m showing it as a graphic here, Jeff’s framework.

Jeff Wetzler
I will go through each step very quickly and then Eddie, if you want to go deeper on anyone, just let me know. Absolutely.

Number one is choose curiosity. This is really about awakening our own authentic desire to learn from the other people around us. If you don’t truly feel curious, none of the other steps matter. But if you do genuinely feel curious—and I believe curiosity is something we can choose—you will radiate an energy that other people know that you want to learn from them and that they will want to share with you. That’s number one.

Number two is called make it safe because it’s a recognition that even if I’m curious about you, maybe even if you want to share with me, you may not always feel safe sharing with me. You may be worried about the impact of what you have to say. So making it safe is all about lowering those barriers. You could think about it as paving the road in gold for people to actually want to share with you, so that it’s safer, so that it’s more comfortable, so that it’s more appealing. And there are very specific and concrete things that you can do to increase that safety.

Number three is pose quality questions. That’s the heart of the ask approach. Not everything that has a question mark is a quality question. My definition of quality questions is very simple: they help you learn from other people. A quality question is a question that helps you learn. So few of us are actually taught what makes for a quality question and what are quality questions. If you’re training to be a surgeon, you’re going to learn about the scalpel and the sutures and all the different tools that you have. Yet most of us in our lives ask questions and make statements for a living. That’s all we do. But so few of us have ever been taught, here are the best questions. And I don’t think there’s like thousands or even hundreds that we have to memorize. There’s about 10 or 12 great question strategies that if you can learn, you will broaden your repertoire so much that you’ll be able to uncover so much more. So that’s what pose quality questions is about.

Number four is called listen to learn and it’s a recognition that even if you ask the best possible question, it all comes down to how well you listen. Do you actually hear the answer? So listening to learn is about really taking in the most essential messages that someone is saying to you and sometimes even that they’re not saying to you as well. There are again very concrete ways that we can listen to learn and learn to listen so that we can do that.

And then the final step of the ask approach is my favorite step. It’s called reflect and reconnect. It’s my favorite step because I, as I already confessed earlier, I’m a junkie for learning and reflection is how we learn. Reflection is actually how we convert our experiences into insights and our insights into action. And how we take away the right things from the conversation. And I think a lot of times reflection gets a bad rap. People think, I don’t have time to reflect. I’d have to go on a meditation retreat, but the truth is it can be very simple and very practical. So I introduce a method called sift it and turn it, which is a way to really help get the right takeaways. And then I say it’s reflect and reconnect because the reconnect is so important. That’s going back to the other person and saying, here’s what I learned from our conversation. Here’s what I’m going to do about that. Anything different you would hope that I would learn? The impact of that reconnection on the other person is profound. And it really increases the chances that learning and sharing is going to continue to happen over time. So, that’s the ask approach in a nutshell.

Eddie Turner
Outstanding. We could do a 30-minute podcast segment on each of these steps. But I just want to pull apart just a couple of these. Let’s start with the final thing you said. We’ll go to primacy recency theory since we’re doing this, right?

Jeff Wetzler
Okay, we’re going to the recency effect.

Eddie Turner
You mentioned here the aspect of your favorite being the importance of reflection. And one of the most powerful statements made in this area that I learned from my coach, as a professional coach, I was trying to learn Marshall Reynolds. She cites the work of John Dewey. Yes. And John Dewey says, we don’t learn from our experiences. We learn from reflecting on our experiences.

Jeff Wetzler
Yes, yes. John Dewey is one of my intellectual heroes. And he thinks so much about the role of experience in learning. But I completely agree. You could have an experience but not get the meaning from it if you don’t do the work of reflection. Reflection really is about making sure that we squeeze every bit of insight out of the experiences that we’ve had. I think it’s the difference between someone having 20 years of experience in a field versus having one year of experience in a field 20 times. It all comes down to reflection.

Eddie Turner
So well said. So I had to pull that thread. Thank you.

Jeff Wetzler
I love it.

Eddie Turner
Phenomenal. Now, here’s the other component. Obviously, as a coach, when I saw your section on posing quality questions, my antenna went up because that’s one of the core components of our training. But what about folks who are not coaches and they don’t care about any coach training, but this aspect of what you mentioned that I need to ask quality questions and you said there are probably 10 or 12 that folks might know. Can you give us just two quality examples of quality questions?

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, I’ll start with one strategy that I call request reactions. Request reactions is really simply a strategy that allows you to access the other person’s thinking about your thinking. So that if they see a hole in your thinking, if they disagree with your thinking, you’re going to be much more likely to find it out. And you might be thinking to yourself, well, they’re just going to tell me if they disagree or they don’t like what I have to say. But for all the reasons that, you know, people don’t say things and most, you know, predominantly lack of psychological safety, it’s quite often the case that someone’s not going to tell you if they disagree with you or if they see a hole in your thinking. So requesting reactions can sound like simply, hey, what’s your reaction to that? How did that land with you? How does that sit with you? What does that make you think? What might I be missing? Any of those strategies is a strategy that opens you up to what’s called disconfirming data. Essentially information that might push against what you believe or what you actually said.

Eddie Turner
Wait a minute, disconfirming data? Why as a leader do I want disconfirming data? I only want the opposite, right?

Jeff Wetzler
I love that question. The yeah, I mean, here’s the thing. We already know what we think and believe. So we may but we may or may not be right. And you bet you’re far better off knowing if you’re wrong before you send the troops into action, before you implement whatever you’re going to go implement, before you pitch something that may or may not land with the customer. And so disconfirming data is going to give you a lot greater chance of finding that out much sooner so that you can do something about it before it’s too late.

Eddie Turner
So group think isn’t always a good thing, is it?

Jeff Wetzler
Group think can get you into trouble sometimes.

Eddie Turner
Yes, yes. No, and I love that Jeff because when I as an executive coach working with leaders, in many cases I have found that that is what gets a lot of leaders in trouble is that they either believe they know all the answers already, right? Hey, that’s how I got the job in the first place. Or it’s they have a reticence to show what they consider weakness and that they don’t know all the answers, that they have to ask a question, they look weak.

Jeff Wetzler
Yes. Yeah, I mean it’s particularly dangerous as a leader goes up the ranks because the higher they get, the more people treat them as if they’re right and don’t push back on them. And so it can get into a leader’s head and make them think, I do have the answers because look how much everybody agrees with me. They’re telling me what a great idea I just had and how much they like what I’m doing. And so it’s especially important that you are seeking out disconfirming data. I mean, I’ll tell you a quick story. When I was a brand new manager, one of my early management assigned relationships, I had just learned this question and I had just given some direction to the person who worked for me and I remembered to myself, maybe I should ask him, what does he think? So I said, hey, before we go, what’s your reaction to what I just asked you to do? And he got quiet for a second and then he said, if you really want to know what my reaction is, I am completely demoralized by what you just asked me to do. Whoa. And I was floored. I thought we were good, but it turns out that we had very different information about what our clients thought and needed and based on what he had, it made no sense what I was asking him to do. And so in the space of about 10 minutes, we got back on the same page, we came to the right path forward and we were good. But had I not asked that question and by the way, it took me less than three seconds to ask that question. Had I not spent those three seconds to ask that question, we would have wasted weeks of time and our relationship would have suffered as well. So that’s it. The client’s expectations would have suffered. The work would not have gone well for the client. So sometimes people say, I don’t have time to ask the question. And I always say you don’t have time to not ask the question, but it doesn’t take that long to ask a question like that as well.

Eddie Turner
So that reveals something about you as a leader, your emotional intelligence and your humility and the understanding that there is no, shouldn’t be a fear in asking questions and getting behind what other people think, feel, and know as you outline in your book.

Jeff Wetzler
Yes, and I mean that’s why it starts with curiosity because I wouldn’t have been able to ask that question authentically if I wasn’t actually genuinely curious to know what did he actually think. And so I always come back to curiosity as the starting point.

Eddie Turner
Curiosity is the starting point to getting to know, wanting to know, so then we will then ask the appropriate question. Excellent.

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, go ahead.

Eddie Turner
No, great. Just I’m enjoying this conversation with Dr. Jeff Wetzler, author of the book Ask. And at this point we are going to take a short pause to acknowledge the sponsors of the Keep Leading podcast.

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All right, Jeff, I’m really enjoying our discussion about your book and we talked about your framework and your questions and your perspective as a leader and how you’ve deployed these questions for that reason. Is there a place, however, when we’re talking about these questions in your framework with other people, is there a place for us to apply this to ourselves internally?

Jeff Wetzler
Absolutely. You can apply the entire ask approach to yourself, to learning from yourself. How do you get curious about your own experience? How do you make it safe for you to actually do that looking and reflecting internally? What are the kinds of questions that can open up? So it absolutely, I believe it applies internally to ourselves, externally with other people and also at the team and the organizational level for sure. In many ways, I think the work starts with ourselves. You can’t even choose curiosity whether you are talking to somebody else or to yourself without a little bit of introspection as well. And I try to make that practical in the book.

Eddie Turner
Yes, and that’s why I wanted to highlight that because sometimes when we’re looking at something like this, especially a wonderful framework, we’re thinking about, here’s how I can’t wait to apply this to this person and apply this with that person. But really as I was reading it, that’s something that kind of came through is like, well, I need to start internally. So then I can go external.

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah. And part of starting internally is taking a look at what is the story I’ve got going on here about myself? What’s the story I got going on about the other person? Where does that story come from in my own deeper stuff? How do I begin to inject question marks into my own story? Not to say my story is wrong, but to say what else might be true? What else might be going on that I wasn’t thinking about? And that type of deep introspective work is powerful both for applying it internally and with other people.

Eddie Turner
Indeed. Well, I’m going to go back to geeking out intellectually and that is the other thing that was impressive to me about your book is that the forward was written by Dr. Amy Edmondson, who when I met her, I geeked out. I felt like I was meeting academic royalty.

Jeff Wetzler
She is a rock star and amazing.

Eddie Turner
And she coined the phrase psychological safety, which you’ve used a couple of times today already. And this is so critical when it comes to asking questions. Can you talk about the impact it has when we might go, well, how we stay in the bounds rather of making it psychologically safe when we’re asking questions so that we don’t veer over into another lane where the question is crossed into an area that’s not necessarily as we’d say in the modern colloquialism, we’re being nosy.

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, yeah, totally. I’ll say a few things. I mean, first of all, I think leaders almost universally underestimate the lack of psychological safety of the people around them. And I know when I have been in operating line leadership roles, I myself have been thinking, why didn’t they tell me that? If they could have just told me that, I would have been able to help. I would have rolled up my sleeves. When they’re thinking, if we tell him that, he’s going to fire us or he’s going to demote us or get us in trouble. And so we cannot overestimate the importance of trying to build that kind of psychological safety with other people. And I would actually say, to the point of your question of what’s the balance of being nosy, the more safety you build, the deeper your questions can go with someone. The question of what’s nosy is actually not an absolute question, but it’s what’s appropriate relative to the amount of safety that you’ve built with someone, relative to the depth of your relationship and trust, relative to how much you have opened up yourself before you ask the other person, relative to how much you’ve demonstrated to them that you are interested and able to handle their truth, no matter what. If you do those things, people are interested in sharing deeper and deeper. There is a lot of interesting research that shows that human beings overestimate the degree to which other people will feel that their questions are intrusive. And so we hold ourselves back from asking questions that sound nosy, when other people are thinking, thank God they’re taking an interest in my life. Like I actually want someone to be asking me about my hobbies or my interests or my family or whatever else might be. But people also do have boundaries. And I think, especially given power differentials with leaders, it’s important to respect those boundaries. One of the ways to know those boundaries and to respect those boundaries is to say to them, this is an optional question. Or are you interested in talking about this? Or let me know, and so you can actually use questions to understand where someone’s boundary is as well so that you don’t cross it.

Eddie Turner
Excellent, excellent advice. Well, folks who are listening to our conversation either live or who will listen to the download later on, what’s the main message you would like to make sure they take away from what they’re hearing?

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah. I would say the main message is that the people around you have such important insights. The answers to your biggest challenges as a leader, chances are they reside in the room or in your team or in your organization and that you’re not hearing them, but that you can do something about that. And if you do that, if you ask the right question in the right way, it can change everything.

Eddie Turner
And to ask that question in the right way, in your book you say you must become a world-class asker.

Jeff Wetzler
Yes.

Eddie Turner
Tell us about that, please.

Jeff Wetzler
Yeah, that is basically to say that this is a learnable capability. This is not something that someone’s born with and other people don’t have. In the book I lay out, here’s the process to get there. It doesn’t take decades to do it. It doesn’t happen in five minutes, but it’s the same as learning any other skill. You understand, hey, here’s what I’m not doing well right now. Here’s something I can do better. Let me try it out. It might feel awkward at first. Let me practice it a little. As I start to get better and it starts to feel more natural. And then I just go back and say, all right, what’s the next piece of this? What’s the next question I want to learn how to ask? What’s the next listening strategy I want to be using? And as you do that over and over again, that’s how you level up to the point where you actually have this as a superpower.

Eddie Turner
Excellent. Jeff, what is the most important leadership advice you’ve ever received or the leadership quote that you use that helps you keep leading?

Jeff Wetzler
So I have many, but one of my favorites comes from a philosopher named Alain de Botton. And he said, if you’re not embarrassed by who you were last year, you’re not learning fast enough. And to me, that flips it on its head. It’s kind of like now that I see what I could have done better, I don’t need to take shame in that. That embarrassment is a sign that I’ve learned. Now I see something I didn’t see before. So to me it’s a liberating quote and one that is motivating to look at our shortcomings so that we can say now I see them. Now I can do something about them.

Eddie Turner
I like that. If you’re not embarrassed by who you were last year, you haven’t learned enough. Yes. Now, I’m going to butcher the name. Say the name for me one more time.

Jeff Wetzler
Alain, a-l-a-i-n, and then it’s de Botton, d-e b-o-t-t-o-n.

Eddie Turner
Excellent. Thank you so much. Jeff, I could talk to you for another hour easily.

Jeff Wetzler
Likewise.

Eddie Turner
Tell us where folks can learn more about you and your great work.

Jeff Wetzler
So everything about Ask is on a website called www.askapproach.com and I’ve got some articles and resources and you can sign up for tips and newsletters and videos, all kinds of things are free on the website. I also love to connect with people on LinkedIn, so feel free to just LinkedIn me, Jeff Wetzler as well.

Eddie Turner
Excellent. So for those who are watching the video, you’ll see it typed here, askapproach.com. Jeff Wetzler is amazing. If you’re not following him on LinkedIn, change that right now. Hit that follow button, connect with Jeff and continue to learn from his great work.

Jeff Wetzler
Thank you. So great to be with you.

Eddie Turner
Jeff, thank you so much for being here. What an honor.

Jeff Wetzler
Really enjoyed the conversation, Eddie. Hope we do more.

Eddie Turner
That concludes this episode, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on or take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So let’s use the lessons we learned from Jeff today so that we can ask quality questions and become a world-class asker so that we can get the most out of people around us so that we can keep leading. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 161 | Jeff Wetzler | Ask appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Become a Bookable Speaker

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Keep Leading!® Podcast Eddie Turner interviews Christa Haberstock, the dynamic Founder and President of See Agency. Christa is a renowned speaker and industry expert and the best-selling author of the transformative book, “Become a Bookable Speaker.”

Episode Highlights

• Discover Christa’s new book, Become a Bookable Speaker, which has captivated the industry, achieving Amazon #1 bestseller status for four consecutive weeks and securing a spot on Forbes’ list of the 5 Must-Read Books for Personal and Professional Growth in 2024.
• Explore Christa’s journey of earning over $40 million in speaking fees to revolutionizing speaker management and branding through her groundbreaking ventures.
• Discover actionable strategies from Christa’s book to help speakers achieve long-term success in the ever-evolving events industry.

Keep Leading!® Live

About Christa Haberstock
Christa Haberstock, the CEO and Founder of See Agency, Bookable Speakers, See Agency Consulting, and Plan See, is a driving force in the events industry with nearly 30 years of expertise. Her numerous achievements and accolades speak volumes, with her agencies recognized on the Inc. 5000 list and Christa herself receiving the Above and Beyond Award and Dottie Walters Helping Hand Award. She was also a 2023 finalist for Best Female Entrepreneur by The Stevie® Awards for Women in Business.

Website
https://christahaberstock.com/

Other Website
https://justgreatspeakers.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christahaberstock/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/seeagency/

Christa’s Book

Leadership Quote
“Don’t ignore the obvious.”

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Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner
Hello everyone. Welcome to this live edition of the Keep Leading podcast. The Keep Leading podcast is dedicated to leadership development and insights. The goal is to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of professional keynote speeches, masterful facilitation, and executive coaching.

Today, we’re broadcasting live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. If you would like to hit the share button to allow your colleagues to join our conversation, we welcome you. We want you to be a part of this interview, so you can ask questions, share your reaction. If you don’t have a question, and you can’t communicate in the chat, you can send emojis. We love seeing that if you can’t do that as well.

And if you’re not following my guest today, I want you to hit the follow button, connect with her on social media. She’s someone you’re going to definitely want to stay connected with. As soon as this session ends, the recording is available to you right in the social broadcast you’re seeing it on, and in a week or so, you’ll find this available anywhere you download your podcast.

As a professional speaker, I am often asked, “How do you become a professional speaker?” And after giving an answer about what it takes, people say then, “Well, how do you get to move from being a free speaker to a fee-based speaker?” So I typically have been up to this point referring people to one specific person I consider an expert in this space. But now, I have another expert I’m going to start sending people to.

I am so excited about my guest today. When I saw her book, I reached out to her and said, “I have to talk to you. I want my audience to get to know you,” and her book answers so many of the questions that I’m asked.

My guest today is the amazing Christa Haberstock. Christa is the author of the best-selling transformative book, Become a Bookable Speaker. She is—let me just add her to our stage so we can see Christa as I’m talking about her.

Christa Haberstock
Hello everyone.

Eddie Turner
Hello, Christa. She’s a renowned industry expert. Now, this book, the title tells you everything you need to know, in my opinion, which is why I got so excited. But this book has become number one on Amazon and it stayed there for four consecutive weeks. It earned a spot on Forbes list of the top five books you need to read in 2024. And that was authored by my good friend, Dr. Ruth Gotian.

Christa Haberstock
Oh.

Eddie Turner
And she’s a prolific author, and anything that she writes, I believe.

Christa Haberstock
She is very, very cool. I met her through LinkedIn and I just—she speaks on mentorship. She lives, she’s amazing.

Eddie Turner
Isn’t she the best?

Christa Haberstock
Mhm.

Eddie Turner
So that’s the credibility of where that comes from. And so that’s why I wanted to highlight that. Christa has also, she’s been so successful in her work as the CEO and founder of the C Agency, Bookable Speakers, and CHC Consulting, that she has generated over $40 million in speaking fees. And her agencies are recognized on numerous prestigious lists and awards.

With that, I want to officially say welcome to the Keep Leading podcast, Christa. Thank you for being here.

Christa Haberstock
You’re so sweet. Thanks for inviting me. This is very cool.

Eddie Turner
Well, tell me what I missed.

Christa Haberstock
Oh.

Eddie Turner
I mean, I think you got it and then some. If anything, I would dial it back. It’s just, you know, I’ve been in the trenches grinding it out for 27 years in the event industry, working with speakers and finding myself in a lot of ways, you know, you really—if you do anything long enough, I think instead of refining the job you’re doing, it refines you in a lot of ways. And that’s what this job has done to me, and done for me. It’s been, you know, it’s been up and down. The events industry is not for the faint of heart. I’m sure you know as a keynote speaker that it is, uh, you know, you get out of it what you put into it, and sometimes you got to put into it for a long time to get anything out.

So, um, I’m really enjoying it. It’s interesting. Recently, I’ve been—people used to ask me what I did, and I’d say, well, generally you just say, “I work with motivational speakers,” because that’s easier, right? It’s like, “I run the represents motivational speakers.” And I have found myself recently saying, “It’s really fun.” Like, huh, looks like the pandemic is behind us if I can start saying it’s fun again.

Eddie Turner
Excellent. Well, you’ve already given us the quote of the day. “If you do a job well enough, instead of you refining it, it refines you.” And certainly you’ve done that. So thank you, Christa.

Christa Haberstock
Yes.

Eddie Turner
I also want to say thank you to a couple of folks who have joined us from LinkedIn. Uh, we have Dr. Vashanda McLean, who’s someone who I know personally. She’s one of Houston’s finest. She’s a police officer, but she also is a professor who is herself just given her first keynote speech recently. So welcome, Dr. McLean. We’re happy to have you with us.

Christa Haberstock
Great.

Eddie Turner
And, uh, also from LinkedIn, Leanne Schultz. She says, “You’re amazing.”

Christa Haberstock
Yes, well, I’m only amazing because Leanne’s amazing. She and I, we go way back. That’s so cool. She’s joining in. Hi, Leanne.

Eddie Turner
Well, splendid. Thank you for tuning in and for letting us know you’re here, Leanne. We appreciate your support and affirmation of Christa.

So Christa, everybody who’s joining us wants to know the million-dollar question.

Christa Haberstock
Yes.

Eddie Turner
How do we become a bookable speaker?

Christa Haberstock
We got to buy the book. The end. Just kidding. Um, so becoming a bookable speaker is, as anything that’s worth having is hard work. And being a speaker is no exception. It is, I’ve heard it referred to as the easiest profession to get into and the hardest one to actually become successful at. It’s very—there’s no school for it, there’s no Ivy League, there’s no, you know, bachelor’s or master’s. No masters of—I was going to say bachelor of something and I confused the two of them. You’re welcome for swearing on your show accidentally. Bachelors of anything or masters of anything. Um, you know, it’s a lot of school of hard knocks. You know, maybe a communications degree could help you, maybe not.

I would even say that for this side of the industry, the agents, we all kind of fell backwards into it as far as I can tell. There’s one person that I know that’s actually using their degree in their profession, which is really kind of interesting. But it’s much the same for speakers. So you, um, you know, it’s your story that qualifies you, but more than that, it’s what you learned from your story that qualifies you to speak to other people.

Eddie Turner
Isn’t that… So when a speaker gets on stage, I hear this a lot from speakers, “I have a great story and I feel like I need to share it.” That’s true. That’s meaningful for that speaker and their story. Is it meaningful for the audience? That’s the bigger question. So is the audience learning something from your stories?

So what I say oftentimes to your question, to answer your question about becoming a bookable speaker, is, how, why are you on that stage in the first place? Why are you holding that microphone? And to feel like you need to be on a stage, that’s one thing entirely, but what you’re going to say is completely another thing. And I would hope the reason that a speaker is on the stage is because something has qualified them to be there… Not a degree, not a master’s, not a bachelor’s, but an experience that can teach or help other people and make their existence better or easier or more meaningful or have purpose and impact.

So that’s at the fundamental level of what makes a speaker bookable is the foundation of authenticity.

Eddie Turner
The foundation of authenticity in a nutshell. Thank you. That is really good to know as we kind of start to dig down a little bit further. I just wanted to kind of get that high level. And of course, yes, we absolutely want people to buy your book. No question about it. So certainly, folks, here is the book, Become a Bookable Speaker, and Christa, that lovely cover, definitely get a copy of that wherever books are sold.

Additionally, we have someone else who just wants to let us know they’re here from LinkedIn. Good morning from UAGC, the University of Arizona Global Campus is what that stands for, by way of Southern Mississippi. A pleasure to learn from and she great. And this is Chivas. Chivas, thank you very much. He’s one of the top students there in his program. I sit on the board there, so that is, I just met him. So thank you for tuning in and supporting Christa. We appreciate that.

Christa Haberstock
That’s very nice.

Eddie Turner
All right, wonderful. Now, you said something that I thought was really, really interesting along the lines of becoming a bookable speaker and what you said about the foundation. You, I talked about the amount of revenue you’ve generated in my intro, but you literally have a skill of identifying folks and then helping them become bookable. So much so, your trademark is, you take people from no name to Hall of Fame.

Christa Haberstock
Mhm.

Eddie Turner
Tell us about that.

Christa Haberstock
Happily. Now, remind me to tell you about the second book that I accidentally wrote last week and I…

Eddie Turner
Oh, okay.

Christa Haberstock
You’re going to kick out of it. I don’t want to start with that, but I do want to talk a little bit about my experience. I have, again, fell backwards completely into this industry. In 1997, I moved from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada to Dallas, Texas. I moved—in Edmonton, I was an elementary music teacher, trained, got my arts degree in music and my elementary music degree and in education. So I was teaching up there in Edmonton.

Moved to Dallas and the circumstances as they were with immigration was that teachers couldn’t really get a visa very easily to teach in the states. So I had four offers from schools and the one that I chose started trying to get me a visa and it just never worked. So as a result, I was kind of stuck in Canada. I had quit my teaching job. We were going to move to Dallas and we were actually stuck in Edmonton for six months with, you know, we had sold our house, we had done everything.

Well, in October, which is when Canadian Thanksgiving is, my brother and sister-in-law, who live in Dallas, they came up to Edmonton for Thanksgiving. Now, it’s important to note that my brother, Vince Pacenti, is a Hall of Fame speaker in two countries. He was in the 1992 Winter Olympics as a speed skier. Did very well and his Olympic story has gained him, you know, this Hall of Fame New York Times best-selling status. It’s pretty incredible.

So he was a fledgling speaker at the time and his wife, Michelle, they met and married in the events industry. She ran a speaker’s bureau. So they came up to Edmonton and I was telling them what was going on with us. It was hard, you know, to—I called it life’s hallway where the door behind us was closed and the door in front of us was also closed and we didn’t know what to do from there, you know, give up or what we should do.

And so she called me. She got back to Dallas. She said, “Hey, so I just fired somebody and I think you might be able to do their job and get a visa for it.” Fast forward a week later, there I am in Dallas, working for a speaker’s bureau with zero sales experience, zero understanding really what the events industry was. Like, I thought it was wedding planners, what did I know, right? Speakers, I didn’t know.

So at like, long story short, quick half a day in the file room… She took me for lunch. I explained to her what a speaker’s bureau was. Okay. And she said, “Let’s go.” So I started planning showcases. And I started working with speakers.

Now, when you come into this industry or any industry, I would say, when you make a hard gear shift from elementary music teacher in another country and go to selling these thought leaders and sports celebrities and God knows what else, there’s a lot to learn. And I think it was a blessing. In fact, I know it was that I really had no experience because you pave your own way, which is what I did. I had to use my skills and what I now know as my obvious advantage. I used the things that came naturally to me, which was a love for connecting and a love for making things make sense to people.

So when you have a classroom of 30 students, you have to have the ability to make things make sense to each individual personality style. And that’s at the fundamentals of selling. But I also had to figure out how to make these speakers, what I now call bookable. So I would take their materials and I’d say, “Okay, how can I make this make sense to this one event planner?” And I would reverse engineer their materials into what the event planner needed and wanted and I became top producer for eight of my 10 years.

This was, yeah, this was an obvious advantage that was not obvious to me until I’m going to tell you in the last four or five years, I realized what I’ve been doing. And then I transferred it over to the agency. Look at you. So I was with the speaker’s bureau for 10 years and then I went on the representation side. Actually worked for one of the greats, Karen Harris, CMI, speakers in Calgary. I worked for her for a couple years. And found that I was entirely too entrepreneurial for my own good. And I also had a, you know, as you do, I had a different approach. I was just approaching things more creatively. I’m a musician and I’ve done stand up and improv.

Eddie Turner
So you were a teacher, a musician, stand up, improv. And I bet you were a great teacher. I did not know that about you.

Christa Haberstock
Oh.

Eddie Turner
I can totally see that. Well, listen, you’ve done that and you’ve gone into this area and you’ve had this big career shift, this big pivot.

Christa Haberstock
Yes.

Eddie Turner
And that’s a big deal for a lot of people. Now, when you’re working in the, in the, as in this, in the bureau, the big thing that we’ve learned in this industry coming up as speakers is, it’s hard to get into a bureau and the bureaus typically won’t represent you until you really don’t need to be represented by a bureau. So how do we get on your radar? That’s always what people want to know who are becoming professional speakers.

Christa Haberstock
Right.

Eddie Turner
Well, let me address a couple of things of what you just said and I think it might help with the answer. So as you’re coming up, it is hard to get the attention of a speaker’s bureau or a speaker manager like me or anyone who might be influential in the speaking industry.

So during my time with the speaker’s bureau, which was before I went on the actual representation management side, the speakers that got our attention did it in a few different ways. Now, this is something you don’t really have control over as a professional speaker, but it is really attention getting when you lose a booking to another speaker. So it’s, you know, you put all these names in a proposal and then the client comes back and says, “Well, sorry, we booked Eddie Turner,” and you go, “Who’s Eddie Turner?” Well, boy, that’s a very quick way to get an agent’s attention, isn’t it?

In fact, that’s how I found my speaker, Doc Henley was. I lost a booking to him for another speaker of mine and I called him up right away and I said, “We need to know everything about you.” And 16 years later, we’re still working together.

Eddie Turner
How about that?

Christa Haberstock
Yeah, yeah. So that’s, that’s one thing you don’t necessarily have control of. I definitely think, you know, and again, I will approach this more philosophically than more than, and practically, I hope, but philosophically, I want to point back to something that I learned actually from Steve Martin, not directly, I wish. He’s one of my heroes. He was in an interview. This was years and years ago… In an interview, he was asked, “How do you become a successful entertainer, performer, artist?” And he said, “Be so good, they can’t ignore you.”

Eddie Turner
Yes.

Christa Haberstock
Critical for speakers, to be so good that they can’t ignore you. When you lose a booking to another speaker, well, they don’t ignore you anymore. If you’re so good that a client comes to you and says, “Listen, have you heard of Eddie Turner?” And you’re like, “No, I haven’t heard of him, but I better look him up.” Um, so again, there are some ways to engineer that. If you have a client, Eddie, you know, or any professional speaker, if you have a great client that works with a speaker’s bureau as well, then you would say, “Would you mind mentioning my name to them because you’ll have their ear better than I will.”

And it’s really so much like, um, the one thing that I would love for speakers to take away from this practically too, is that, um, not every agency bureau—that those terms are kind of used interchangeably—are going to be a really good fit for them to.

Eddie Turner
Is there a difference in those terms? You said they’re using interchangeably. But you’re right, agency, bureau. Is one better than the other?

Christa Haberstock
Well, let me rabbit trail on this because that’s a good question. So let me just rabbit trail very quickly. Um, the definition of an agent or an agency is a person that represents. So let me just differentiate. You actually said it when you were setting up the question. You said, “How do I get a bureau to represent me?” Bureaus, unless you have an exclusive agreement, they don’t represent you, they list you.

So an agency, which is why I call my company C Agency, because we are the definition of an agency. You know, we represent our speakers. In this side of the industry, you call it a speaker manager, speaker manager or speaker management company. It’s kind of morphed into speaker management agency, which I like because that’s what we do. We’re managers and agents, 100% of both.

But a speaker’s bureau, now, there are, and I don’t want to get in the weeds too much, but I think it’s important that some of your listeners will appreciate this. So there are bureaus that represent speakers exclusively. That bureau would be their agency, right? But if you are listed, simply listed on a speaker’s bureau website, they do not represent you. I want to repeat that.

Eddie Turner
That’s a really good distinction, Janelle. That, I’m glad you answered that.

Christa Haberstock
Yes.

Eddie Turner
Now, another closely related distinction we need to make is, what’s the difference between a professional speaker and a public speaker? A lot of times you look at LinkedIn and folks will say, “I’m a speaker, I’m a public speaker.” How do you differentiate?

Christa Haberstock
You know, I’m going to probably get myself in trouble because I don’t 100% know, but I do know that public speaker is not the right definition for what you do. I think by the very definition of the word professional means that you earn your living from it or you earn money from it. And a public speaker, I don’t know. I think it’s just somebody who speaks. Not 100% sure. So I’m not, I really have never differentiated there, but I would encourage the use of professional speaker if this is something that you’re endeavoring to do as a career.

If it’s a hobby for you and, um, if you get money for it, you’re probably still a professional speaker, but I would encourage any speaker who wants to really, really make a good living out of it, it has to be a full-time job. You have to be dedicating the 40, 50, 60 hours a week or else it’s a hobby in my opinion.

Eddie Turner
Okay. Good to know. Thank you for that clarity. We appreciate that. And earlier you made a comment about it being the foundation of authenticity.

Christa Haberstock
Yes.

Eddie Turner
And Dr. McLean says, “I love it.” So we want to share that. Thank you, Dr. McLean for tuning in and also sharing your reaction. And then Troy Ottmer, he’s also based in Houston and he says he loves this. So everybody’s tuning in for you.

Christa Haberstock
Well, I hope that I can answer any questions they have. So, oh, look, he just asked, is there a blueprint?…

Eddie Turner
Yes.

Christa Haberstock
Chivas asked a question, “Is there a blueprint to building credibility to becoming bookable or does it come with time and experience?”

Christa Haberstock
Oh, what a good question. Allow me. This is so great. So is there a blueprint? I hesitate to say blueprint. I’m not going to correct you on just, you know, the semantics of it, but I’ll just tell you for me and for my money, I don’t say blueprint, I don’t say roadmap. Um, it’s not a straight line and it’s not the same for any speaker, as it shouldn’t be. So I think that the second you sense that there is a quick start or a potential assembly line that you can hop on, that’s when we lose the authenticity.

And this is, in my opinion, again, I’m an artist, I’m a creative. I don’t see things maybe scientifically as I should because, you know, professional speaking, the business of professional speaking is an art and a science, 100%. But from the art perspective, I see it very much as a person’s who they are coming out into what they say on stage. Who they are coming out into what they say on stage.

Let me just say this about that. I want to be very clear that a lot of speakers, the pendulum is swinging golly back and forth. Okay, the pendulum has swung over a little bit to the assembly line, okay? Like the quick start speaker in a box because technology is so easy to make things, you know, AI. I’ve been using AI on my PowerPoint presentation that I’m using on Thursday to speak. I’ve been using AI. I had AI write me a book last week, you know, it didn’t write it for me, but we wrote it together. And so I’m in the final edits on this crazy little book that should have probably taken me at least a couple months to write, but it, you know, fast tracked everything.

Now, this power could be used for bad, I guess, or for good and for evil, but to make a speaker look like someone they’re not or they haven’t done the reps. So the speakers who are authentic and doing the reps and have a stage craft and have a great story and they’re out there all the time, but their materials might be unselling them. You have to pay just as much attention to your materials and your brand as you do your stage craft. And let me flip that. You have to pay just as much attention to your stage craft as you spend on your brand and materials. They both have to be a level excellence to make it right now in 2025. I promise you that. It is highly competitive and both go hand in hand.

So the authenticity on stage, the realness of your story, the reason that you’re on stage has to match the quality of your materials and your brand or you’re probably going to be losing bookings to someone who’s done it better on either side of that.

Eddie Turner
Excellent. Thank you for that, thorough answer. And thank you, Chivas for tuning in and asking that question. We appreciate it. And Dr. McLean shares with us again her reaction. “Miss Haberstock, I’m so thankful for your gift of shared knowledge and thank you, Eddie Turner.” We appreciate that feedback, Dr. McLean.

Well, listen, I’m going to take a break now a little bit later than I normally do to acknowledge the sponsor of the Keep Leading podcast. If a single employee’s indecision can cost an organization $10,000 to a million dollars, imagine the potential financial impact when more individuals are added to this indecision equation. It can spiral out of control very quickly.

The answer is Decision X. It’s a bespoke on-demand service designed to help your leaders overcome indecision and move forward with their work. Visit Papillon MDC and discover how you can help your team get unstuck, shift perspectives, and advance today. And that, for those who listen to the podcast, you’ll find that at papillonmdc.ca. My wonderful friends from Canada. And then also, the Keep Leading podcast is a part of C Suite Radio. Together, we’re turning up the volume on business. So visit us at csuiteradio.com. You can get the Keep Leading podcast there or wherever you listen to podcasts.

So, you made a good point there. It was going to be one of my final questions to you was about the outlook of the future of speaking and you already indicated how you’re using AI in your speaking, Christa. Is there anything else that you foresee in your work as an agent, as you also call yourself the speaker therapist? I wanted to know more about that. But as you look out into the future, is there anything else that’s impacting this business that we need to know about?

Christa Haberstock
Yes, for sure. So let me just address the speaker therapist thing really quick. So, um, it is a very short walk as I do my consultation with speakers between “What do you speak about?” And when they can’t articulate it, I say, “Well, why do you speak about that?” And they say, “Well, I don’t know.” And then I say, “Well, who are you as a speaker?” Then it’s an existential crisis. I’m telling you, it happens in the first thing. So, but I think to draw out the best in any speaker, you have to have a bit of therapist in you.

As far as what’s going on in 2025, I can give you what’s happening in the next six months probably. But, you know, we have this, the rapid speed of change is not unique to us. But I what I will tell you is that we are, event planners are prioritizing connection, audience interaction, authenticity, which was so nice for me to see on the list, and of course, AI and sustainability.

So, um, now, I want to just also point this out because I’ve only recently learned it. So I always want to, you know, as the teacher in me wants to make sure that you know all the stuff. But when you hear sustainability, I think a lot of speakers would say, “Well, I’m, oh good, well, I’m an environmental speaker. That means my day is here.” Not necessarily. The sustainability that they’re doing at their events is more of a priority for them than the actual topic.

So inspiration, motivation as topics, leadership will always be evergreen. I guess that’s a redundancy is evergreen. And, um, AI is just, it’s not going anywhere and the topic is at the top of the list right now. So that’s as far as topics. But as much as you can, connecting audience members, making sure that the evaluations and the feedback are high in terms of making everything more and more and more about the audience than a speaker ever has. That it’s critical that it’s a group experience and it’s not somebody with a microphone talking at the audience.

Eddie Turner
Making it about the audience and no matter how we’re incorporating the technologies. Outstanding. I could talk to you for hours. I have a ton of questions I still didn’t ask you. Listen, Troy says, who has joined us, Troy Ottmer says, “Great answer and advice.” Thank you for that feedback, Troy. And Dr. McLean says, “Miss Haberstock, I would love to connect.” So we’re going to encourage you to do that. And anyone who’s tuned in or if you listen to the podcast later, definitely tune in and connect with Christa Haberstock. She is amazing.

Eddie Turner
Can you tell us your website?

Christa Haberstock
Yes, sure. So I’ve got a few, but I think the one that you’re probably going to want to send people to is my first name last name.com. So Christahaberstock.com and that’s where I outline the obvious advantage for anybody and for speakers and for event professionals and for me.

Eddie Turner
Beautiful. So I’m showing that for the benefit of those who are tuned into this video. If you’re tuning into the podcast, it’s a first name last name as she said.com. Thank you so much for sharing the wisdom that you’ve shared with us today. You’ve given us a lot to think about.

Christa Haberstock
You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Eddie Turner
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of the Keep Leading podcast, everyone, where we’ve learned about what it takes to become a bookable speaker. Left us with many memorable quotes and perhaps one of the ones that stands out the most is about being authentic and also making it about the audience. So, this is a reminder that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 160 | Christa Haberstock | Become a Bookable Speaker appeared first on Eddie Turner.

What Lights You Up

Episode Summary

On this episode of Keep Leading!® Live, Eddie Turner welcomes Mary Olson-Menzel, an esteemed executive coach, business advisor, and speaker. Mary shares insights from her transformative new book, “What Lights You Up? Illuminate Your Path and Take the Next Big Step in Your Career.”

Whether you’re an industry veteran looking to pivot, a stay-at-home parent rejoining the workforce, or a college student finding your footing, Mary’s actionable advice will guide you toward a fulfilling and meaningful career.

Keep Leading!® Live

60 Second Videos

Bio
Mary is the Founder and CEO of MVP Executive Development (www.mvpexec.com), a national consultancy specializing in leadership, coaching, and organizational management, with offices in Connecticut, New York, and Illinois.

Before founding her company in 2012, Mary was a partner at two global executive search firms. She also served as the National Managing Director of Talent at Tribune Company in Chicago for ten years, gaining expertise in recruiting and coaching. In this role, she collaborated with 20 newspapers, 27 television stations, and numerous digital assets across the country to attract and retain talent. Prior to this, Mary worked in the technology sector and started her career as a television reporter.

Mary holds an MBA from Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management and a Bachelor’s degree in Communications and Public Relations from Illinois State University. Her book, “What Lights You Up? Illuminate Your Path and Take the Next Big Step in Your Career,” was released on October 8, 2024, and became a USA Today Bestseller.

Website
https://www.maryolsonmenzel.com/

Other Website
https://mvpexec.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-olson-menzel-mvpexec/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/maryolsonmenzel/

Leadership Quote
“Pace yourself, it’s a marathon, not a sprint!”

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Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello. Welcome to Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live and the Keep Leading Podcast are dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate their performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional keynote speeches. We’re here to help you stay inspired, stay motivated, so you can keep leading.

Please let us know where you are joining us from. You can type in the comments where you’re located, let us know what your reaction is to what we’re saying. If you see the option to hit share, you can share this with your timeline so that your colleagues can be a part of our discussion immediately or see the recording that’s available right after we complete this session. And if you’re not already following myself and my guests on social media, I’m going to invite you to do that. Follow us, stay connected to us. We’d love to keep the conversation going even after our session.

Are you an industry veteran who’s looking to make a pivot in your career? Are you a stay-at-home parent who is now ready to rejoin the workforce? Are you a college student who after spring break here in March, you’re going to be heading off to your first job and you want to get insights on what you should do? Well, today, we’re going to help you discover your career path by learning what lights you up. I’m going to do that by interviewing Mary Olson Menzel.

Mary’s an esteemed executive coach, a business advisor, and speaker. Mary’s going to share insights from her transformative new book. Now, why did I invite Mary? I invited Mary because Mary is the CEO of MVP Executive Development. She is also an executive coach, business advisor, leadership expert, facilitator, and the author of What Lights You Up? Illuminate Your Path and Take the Next Big Step in Your Career. Mary’s also one of Marshall Goldsmith’s 100 coaches and perhaps the most important detail, she holds an MBA from Northwestern University, my alma mater. Go Cats. Mary, welcome to Keep Leading Live.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Thank you, Eddie. It’s so good to be here.

Eddie Turner:
It is so wonderful to have you. Mary, I’ve been waiting to interview you and congratulations on the tremendous success with this book. I did not mention that you are also a USA Today best-selling author as a result of this book.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, yes. And Eddie, it has been a wild ride. A wild magic carpet ride as my friend Victoria Labomb says.

Eddie Turner:
What’s been the most surprising aspect of this ride once the book was released?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Oh, wow. Great question. I think the most surprising part is seeing people across the globe and seeing them actually getting inspiration and hope from this book.

Eddie Turner:
Okay. Well, you’re seeing people’s reaction, they were getting inspiration and hope across the globe. And in part, it’s been because you’ve been everywhere. I see you in the media. You have been a part of interviews nationally and you’re just everywhere. And the biggest thing that I saw in addition to your national coverage on major media is I mentioned you’re a Northwestern University alumna, but I didn’t mention that I woke up to an email that went out to all 260,000 Northwestern alum and what did I see? This notification to get Mary’s book. My dear friends. So I was so excited to see that you were featured and it went out to the entire Northwestern University community.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Oh, thank you, Eddie. I mean, I cannot say thank you enough to people like you, to the people like Northwestern and Kellogg, to people at the 100 coaches for helping to amplify and elevate this book because as you know, we’ve talked about this, I wrote this book to help people at all levels who don’t have access to a coach or don’t even have the means maybe to a coach. But, you know, somebody who doesn’t have time to invest in a coaching program right now, this book is for you because it’s all right there for you.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed. So if I’m one of those folks who I mentioned in my introduction, let’s start with, you know, this literally happened before this call, as a matter of fact, Mary. Someone sent me a message and, someone who I spent many years working with and she says, “Hey, I’m getting ready to make a career pivot. I need to talk to you. I want to understand what should I be doing?” And now I thought about it as I was getting ready for the show, I should have called Mary.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Perfect.

Eddie Turner:
What’s your advice you tell her or anyone who is getting ready to make a pivot in their career?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, yes. So the first thing you want to do is start to get very clear on where you want to go, right? And thinking about what you want, I mean, especially your friend, right? She’s getting ready for a pivot. But is she clear on where she wants to go, right? So to gain clarity like that, you have to pretty much take a deep look into who you are as a human being, what your hopes and dreams are, but also what your reality is at this very moment.

Eddie Turner:
All right, so get clarity, get clear. And once you have that, is there a next step?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, yes. So there’s so many steps, right? But you know, the book is based on a 10-step pivot program that I created about 12 years ago. And so the first step is clarity, 100%. Our friend Mitchell Levy loves that word. He’s the expert on clarity. But you know, clarity about where you are right now and where you want to go. From there, you have to brush off your resume. You need to make sure that your LinkedIn profile is up to date. You need to make sure that all of those pieces, the nuts and bolts of a job search are in place. Resume is clear and concise, LinkedIn profile is robust, and making sure that your network is strong. So those are the next steps.

Eddie Turner:
Okay, great. Thank you for illuminating that. And that makes a lot of us a little nervous. How do I know if the resume, my LinkedIn are looking the way that they should? You know, that’s a question people have.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, and it’s a valid question, right? Because even the process of a resume has changed so much in the years that you and I have been working, Eddie. So you think about what a resume was many, many moons ago when you and I entered the workforce. It was everything, right? You walked into an office and you handed somebody your resume. Now it’s almost like a calling card, right? The average recruiter looks at a resume for six seconds only. Six to ten if you’re lucky. So what you want is that clear, concise storytelling so that I can take a glance at a resume and I can see how amazing you are, Eddie Turner.

Eddie Turner:
Yeah, you’re so right. And I remember the days that not only was it your calling card, in a sense, like you said, you could walk it in. They don’t let you get that close anymore. Everything’s vetted through digital technology. So definitely new strategies are called for writing resumes.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes. And the beauty is that there’s so many people out there that can help you. Obviously, my book can help you, but there’s AI now, right? And AI is really, really helpful when it comes to resume writing. There’s a lot of great places where you can get a clear, concise, wonderfully done resume with a coach or with AI, but you want to make sure it has those keywords to your point, Eddie, where it can get caught into a database and put into the right spot.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely. That is absolutely critical and, attracting, being a magnet with it, in terms of both presence and aesthetic layout, but having the right words because otherwise you’re not going to be able to be found.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, those keywords are very, very important. And I know you asked me about the LinkedIn profile. That’s even more important now, Eddie. And you and I, we love LinkedIn. We’re on it all the time. It’s kind of our professional playground. But truly, your LinkedIn profile is even more important than your resume now because I will take a look at somebody’s resume or I will be going into a meeting with somebody and I immediately look at their LinkedIn profile. Who are they? What are people saying about them? Do we have any mutual connections? And then that’s where the power of your LinkedIn profile but also your professional network comes in.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed. And, people should obviously understand that before any decisions are made about you these days, before any meetings are taken, that’s the first place people go. They want to see who you are, what your digital reputation looks like and that is LinkedIn. That’s the first place they go.

Mary Olson Menzel:
It is. Yeah. I mean and, right? We’ve got Instagram and we’ve got TikTok and we’ve got Facebook. But the real, real, number one place of where it’s at is LinkedIn.

Eddie Turner:
Mhm. Absolutely. Now, let’s go to that other category. The advice you gave earlier about the transitioning professional, does that apply equally to a stay-at-home parent who now wants to re-enter the workforce?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Such a great question. Yes. And what a stay-at-home parent needs to think about is what are the things that they’ve been doing while they’ve been staying at home that are transferable skills into the workplace. And I can give just an amazing example that’s in the book is there’s a client and a friend down the street from me who was running the show, three kids, was re-entering the workforce. When she went on LinkedIn and actually when she put it on her resume, she put COO of, you know, blank household so that, you know, people understood that this is what she’s been doing and it’s a meaningful thing that she’s been doing and here are the skills, right? She was not only chief counselor, but head of operations and, you know, head of technology and head of transportation and logistics. So, you know, there are ways to kind of add a little bit of humor and integrity into being a stay-at-home parent and looking at what those skills are that are transferable. And there’s a lot of different places that can help you do that these days.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely. And, it’s not a stretch to say that there are significant transferable skills from being a stay-at-home parent to going back into the workforce. So thank you for highlighting that. And then for my college students, I do a lot of coaching on college campuses and I have a lot of seniors. What advice would you have for them when they come back from spring break as they get ready to head into the work world?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Well, first of all, this is an amazing time to be a college student because of people like Eddie and people like me and the career centers at your universities. But the first thing that I want you to think about is that your network is happening now. It is the people that you’re talking to. It is your professors. It is your classmates. It is your parents’ friends and friends of friends, right? So some college kids come out of school and they’re like, “I don’t really have a network yet.” And I say, “Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Look around you and start connecting with the people who are in your class, with your professors and with all of the wonderful people who really want to help you as you’re graduating from college.”

Eddie Turner:
Very, very good advice, Mary. And as one gentleman once said, I don’t remember who said it, but your network is your net worth. And so start to focus on that and tap into that right away. It’s good advice for our graduating seniors.

Now, also there’s a group of folks out here, Mary, that I’m really concerned about that I think your book will have wide benefit to, and that is we have a lot of folks being displaced from their employment right now as we look around. So be it whatever your displacement reason is, layoff or whatever it may be, what advice do you have for individuals who are dealing with that as they’re going to be looking to reboot their careers and bounce back?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Well, the first thing is you’re not alone, right? I mean, there are so many people going through this right now and there are places to get support, right? And, you know, surrounding yourself with people who can help you, but also surrounding yourself with people who are going through what you’re going through so that you can help each other. But what I would say, Eddie, is you don’t ever know for sure when you’re going to be displaced or laid off. So my advice is really keep that network strong, no matter where you are in your job, no matter where you are in your career because that network is going to carry you into what’s next. And for, you know, those of you being displaced, just lean in to people who can help you because people do want to help you.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, they really do. And the problem sometimes when it comes to help is simply being able to ask for it.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, yes. And in my book, Eddie, I give people advice. It’s uncomfortable for many of us to ask for help. So flip the narrative. Reach out, say, “How can I help you?” There’s always ways, right? And it’s hard when you’re coming at the world and your ego is rocked a little bit, your world is rocked a little bit. You’ve got this timeline that you have got to find a job in, but flipping that narrative and reaching out to people and just doing a genuine, authentic check-in. How are you doing? Here’s what’s going on with me. I wonder if we can hop on a call or Zoom for 15, 20 minutes to see how we can help each other.

Eddie Turner:
The law of reciprocity. Yes, what a nice way to make that request and to see what comes from it naturally. Sometimes those organic outgrowths are the best.

Well, thank you very much, Mary. I’m talking to Mary Olson Menzel. She’s a CEO and author of What Lights You Up?We’re going to take a pause for a brief moment now as I acknowledge the sponsor of the Keep Leading Podcast and Keep Leading Live.

If a single employee’s indecision can cost an organization $10,000 to a million dollars, imagine the potential financial impact when more individuals are added to this indecision equation. It can spiral out of control quickly. What’s the answer? Decision X. Decision X is a bespoke on-demand service designed to help your leaders overcome indecision and move forward with their work. Visit Papion MDC and discover how you can help your team get unstuck, shift perspective, and advance today. And that is spelled p a p i l l o n mdc.ca for those who will hear this as a podcast episode.

And speaking of podcasts, I want to remind everyone that this episode, although being available as a video on LinkedIn, YouTube, and Facebook, it will also be available to you in a couple of days or so on the C Suite Radio. The C Suite Radio is turning the volume up on business and I’m very delighted to be a member, and check out all of our podcasts, not just the Keep Leading Podcast, but visit csuiteradio.com to hear more business-related podcasts, the largest business podcast network in the world.

All right, so I’m back talking with Mary Menzel. And with Mary, we’re talking about her new best-selling USA Today best-selling book and that is, What Lights You Up. So Mary, when it comes to this book, What Lights You Up, tell us where the light comes in to our life.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, where if you think about it, Eddie, and you have young kids, right? Young kids are lit up from within, right? We’re all born with that inner light. And, you know, a lot of times as we grow up, whether it’s parents or teachers or anyone else, they kind of help you, you know, calm that down a little bit. And maybe it sometimes takes away your childhood exuberance, life, right? In general. But what I’m really urging people to do is to tap into what it is that makes them happy. And that truly is my favorite word, the Japanese word Ikigai, which is the intersection of what you’re passionate about, what you’re good at, what the world needs, and how you can make money. So to me, that is your light. Your light is your secret sauce that can get you to that really beautiful intersection.

Eddie Turner:
And if I’m having difficulty discovering what that is, what do I do?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Well, I would recommend that you create a light log. And what we do, what I do with my clients is I say, you know what, take notes, right? It doesn’t have to be on a notebook, it can be in your phone, but look at the moments of your day that are giving you joy. Look at the moments of your day where you’re feeling in the flow. Where are those moments popping up? And that starts to help you understand where you’re being lit up during the day. What’s getting you excited every day? What’s getting your head off the pillow? And then do this for a couple weeks, a couple months, and then start to look at the trends. Where are you seeing those patterns? And is there a way that you can get more of that in the workplace?

Eddie Turner:
Very nice. That’s a nice set of options for individuals to try to discover what’s lighting them up and then translating it into what you said that they can do and earn money with. In your book, you offer a framework and you call it the three Ps. Can you share that with our listeners?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes, that is one of my favorites, Eddie. The three Ps is, in essence, it’s turning your job search inside out, right? So many people who are looking for jobs will look at, you know, Indeed and LinkedIn and job boards and company websites to see what’s open. But what I’m urging people to do is take the reins. Don’t sit back and wait for the openings to come to you. Start looking at the companies in an aspirational way, the companies that you would like to work for. And so what I ask people to do is put that in a category of three Ps. And, you know, you and I went to Kellogg, we had the four Ps of marketing, right? So I call this the three Ps of your job search and what it is is the first P is your usual prospects, right? So for, you know, somebody, I like to use my husband as an example. He’s a great example for this. He works in media. He could look at other media companies in his usual prospects, right? Then there’s the pivots. Could he take his sales leadership expertise and pivot it into a company like Google, tech, right? Media, entertainment, still tech, Netflix, whatever it is. But he’s super passionate about the NFL and football. So what if the next area of his list is the third P, which is passions. Could he take his sales experience and sell for the NFL or for, you know, one of his favorite teams? Not that he’s looking. He is not looking. He’s super happy where he is. But you know, that’s an example, right? Media companies, tech companies, and then what is it that you’re passionate about and how can you tap into that?

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. Now, give us those three just one more time. Passion was the last one, but the first was prospects. I think I missed the one in the middle.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Pivots.

Eddie Turner:
Pivots. Okay.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes.

Eddie Turner:
So prospects, pivots, passions. All right.

Mary Olson Menzel:
You got it.

Eddie Turner:
Very nice. Now, Mary, you have developed a tremendous amount of expertise in this area because of your breadth of business experience. Is there one particular concept from your book or from your experience portfolio that you want to make sure that everyone who’s hearing our discussion leaves with today?

Mary Olson Menzel:
There are a few. One is that your career is in your own hands. You can’t sit back and wait for anyone to take control of it other than you, right? So that’s why the three Ps are so powerful because you’re being very intentional and deliberate about where you want to go. So throughout your career, keep that in mind. You are the driver of your own destiny, right? And only you can really push your career forward by training or networking or mentoring or anything else. But the second thing is be patient. The whole process is daunting. Looking for a job is a full-time job unto itself sometimes. And so understanding that not everything happens on the time frame that we would like it to, understanding that companies and corporations and organizations have other things going on behind the scenes that maybe we don’t know about. So if it’s two weeks before you hear from somebody, it’s okay. It’s okay. Give yourself the grace and have patience with the process because it’s not easy. It’s a lot of ups and downs and it’s a roller coaster.

Eddie Turner:
That is very, very true. And I want to acknowledge that on Facebook, we’re getting a little love from one of our fellow 100 coaches members, Oleg, if I’m pronouncing that correctly, Oleg, pardon me.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Hi, Oleg.

Eddie Turner:
So he’s giving you a thumbs up there, Mary, on Facebook.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Thanks, Oleg.

Eddie Turner:
Very nice. This is the Keep Leading Podcast, so I always ask the question, what is a quote or the best piece of leadership advice you’ve ever received that helps you keep leading?

Mary Olson Menzel:
So many. I’ve had so many great mentors. But one thing that I’m really, really talking about a lot right now is to put your own oxygen mask on first. You know, we as leaders, we as executive coaches, we as human beings, right? We are driven to give it 100%, 150%. We’re driven to help. And sometimes we need to actually sit back, take that deep breath and help ourselves in order to be able to help others to the best of our abilities.

Eddie Turner:
Fantastic. Thank you for sharing, Mary. And I’ve shared a couple of times here how people can find you, but can you just tell us again for the benefit of those who are going to hear this as a podcast and who aren’t seeing the banner on flashing, where can people learn more about you and your work?

Mary Olson Menzel:
Yes. Well, the first place, if you want to know more about me, my work, the book, you can go straight to MaryOlsenMenzel.com, which is m a r y o l s o n m e n z e l.com. You can also go to MVPexec, mvpexec.com to see more about our business and what we do from a leadership and a coaching standpoint. And you can connect with me on LinkedIn. As Eddie and I said, LinkedIn is where it is at. So please connect with us. We love that. And I’m just throwing you into that, Eddie, too. Everybody connect with both of us.

Eddie Turner:
Absolutely. Well, we definitely want to see you connect with us, ladies and gentlemen, everyone who’s tuned in from around the world. And, you have a copy of this and get the audio copy wherever you get your podcasts. We appreciate that. Mary, it’s just been so wonderful to speak with you. I’ve been looking forward to this and your great book. Congratulations on all your success and we look forward to seeing more people impacted as they learn what lights them up.

Mary Olson Menzel:
Thank you, Eddie. It’s been a delight to be on here with you.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of Keep Leading Live and the Keep Leading Podcast, everyone. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It is not a garment that we put on or take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 159 | Mary Olson-Menzel | What Lights You Up appeared first on Eddie Turner.

The Five Principles of Collaboration

Episode Summary

On this episode of Keep Leading!® Live as we explore the essential principles of collaboration outlined by Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim. Discover how trust, respect, willingness, empowerment, and effective communication can transform your personal and professional life.

Learn practical strategies to:

• Foster healthy employee-management relationships in the workplace,
• Overcome barriers to collaboration in social settings,
• Cultivate a strong intrapersonal relationship by understanding your life’s purpose.

Mastering these principles will equip you to achieve success through effective collaboration. Tune in for actionable insights and a practical guide to cooperative success!

Keep Leading!® Live

60 Second Videos

About Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim is a highly regarded executive coach, scientist-practitioner, and bestselling author. He is celebrated for his expertise in enhancing workplace relationships. He has contributed to prestigious publications such as Psychology Today and Forbes. His books, including the popular “The Five Principles of Collaboration,” have guided numerous executives globally.

Dr. Agbanyim earned his PhD in industrial and organizational psychology from Grand Canyon University and holds executive certificates from MIT and Harvard. A respected member of several international psychology and coaching organizations, he has shared his insights with audiences across the United States, Canada, Europe, the UAE, and Africa.

Website
https://www.fvgrowth.com/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-ibeh-agbanyim-ms-phd-ml-8513322b/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/p/J-Ibeh-Agbanyim-100063570607012/

Dr. Ibeh’s Book
https://amzn.to/3QcKnEQ

Leadership Quote
“If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.” – John Quincy Adams

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Full Episode Transcripts and Detailed Guest Information
www.KeepLeadingPodcast.com

Keep Leading LIVE (Live Recordings of the Keep Leading!® Podcast)
www.KeepLeadingLive.com

Connect with Eddie Turner
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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

Share the Inspiration
Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner
Hello everyone. Welcome to Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speaking.

Today we are broadcasting live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. If you’re joining us on one of these platforms, let us know. You can let us know by typing into the comment section to tell us who you are and where you’re located. And if we see that you’ve given us a question, we will absolutely entertain your question. Or if you just simply have a reaction to something you’re hearing, tell us what you think. Even if you disagree, let us know that too. We welcome you to be a part of the conversation.

Hit the share button. If you hit the share button, then your colleagues can join our conversation as well or have access to the replay immediately upon the conclusion of today’s session. And if you’re not following myself and my guest on social media, I’d like to encourage you to do so. Follow us. We’d love to have you as a part of our network and stay connected to you.

In today’s episode of Keep Leading Live, we will explore the essential principles of collaboration. We’re going to do so through the eyes, the lens, and the work of Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim. If we master these principles that he’s going to share with us, we’ll achieve success through effective collaboration and have an actionable guide that we can use and refer to over and over.

Now, why Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim? He and I met at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is a highly regarded executive coach. He’s a science practitioner and a best-selling author. He’s celebrated for his expertise in enhancing workplace relationships. Dr. Agbanyim earned his PhD in Industrial and Organizational Psychology from Grand Canyon University and holds executive certificates from MIT and Harvard. He co-authored Leading with the Heart, building successful teams with trust and compassion. He’s contributed to prestigious publications such as Psychology Today and Forbes.

Now, today we will discuss his very popular the five principles of collaboration, applying trust, respect, willingness, empowerment, and effective communication in human relationships. Dr. Agbanyim, welcome to Keep Leading Live.

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
I thank you so much, sir, Eddie. You are—you are the real McCoy.

Eddie Turner
Thank you, my friend. I am so excited to have you. It’s been too long since we’ve really hung out. So, tell us what I may have missed about your background that you want the audience to know about.

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
I think you got it all right. When you were introducing me, I was asking myself, that’s how good it was. So thank you so much.

Eddie Turner
Well, you’re quite accomplished and one of the most humble people I know. But I’ll tell you something. I really respect the work that you do and the impact that you’re having around the globe. And this book is a really good book and we would love to know, you know, the five principles of collaboration. What motivated you to write this book?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Yeah, thank you, Eddie. Before I answer that question, let me just put one or two things in your mind before I answer that question. Collaboration is desperately needed. In fact, collaboration is an essential requirement for human relationships. I’ll put it this way: Humans are—we are already busy. People are busy whether in a relationship, whether you’re hanging out with your friends or whether you’re an executive running an organization.

So imagine, recent research says that an average American makes about 35,000 decisions on a daily basis. 35,000 decisions on a daily basis. And other studies say that people process thousands and thousands of thoughts on a daily basis. And that starts—80% of them are negative thoughts. And 95% of them are thoughts. So we are constantly bombarded internally about what our mind. So you can imagine if you’re—if we are not collaborating or working with people, imagine how suffocated we can be with such information. So that’s why I say collaboration is very, very essential, is very needful, is very required if you want to be well-rounded.

And you know, as far as the neuroscience scientists go, neuroscientists, they said that—Dr. Bruce Perry said that our brain is a social organ. So people are wired to connect. So there is a high need of people collaborating in every facet of life.

What made me write this piece? I would say it comes three piece. One is observation, one is experience, and one is also research. So having traveled extensively, I realized that the act of collaboration is universal. You know, people mention those five principles that I tabulated in my book. In one way or the other, they mention them, you know, what they need to collaborate. So while traveling, I experienced all that from different parts of the world. You know, whether it’s the Southeast Asia or Africa or, you know, Dubai. For that reason, I felt like it would be a good idea to put it in writing. That way people can carry around with them. That’s why I wrote the book.

Eddie Turner
Interesting. All right. Well, you also answered one of the questions I was going to ask you and that is what is collaboration. So thank you for delineating that and what makes it important. And I like the interesting part that you said about the brain being a social—give me that part one more time.

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Our brain is a social organ and it’s right.

Eddie Turner
Social organ. I’ve never heard it referred to that before. A social organ. Very interesting. Thank you very much. Now, when you talk about the reason for writing the book and how you put this down for people to be able to refer to, you’ve given us five principles. What are they?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Thank you. The five principles that I found universal was—they are trust, respect, willingness, empowerment, and effective communication.

Eddie Turner
Is one of them more important than the other?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
I don’t think so, but they should come because if any one of them is missing in relationship, that area will be deficient. So clear each one of them has a role to play. So all we need to do is pay attention to how we, you know, how those five—if I may say that. I hope that makes sense, Eddie.

Eddie Turner
It does. Well, in your book, you started with trust and that’s one reason I asked the question. I didn’t know if trust was more important than the others. So talk to us about trust. What role does trust play in collaboration and communication?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Yes, trust is—it’s a very transactional construct. In other words, if you don’t extend, if you don’t prove trustworthy, it’s hard for somebody else to initiate same thing to you. So trust is transactional and it’s also mutual. You know, trust doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Has to be earned. And what do I mean by that? You know, trust is transit, which means it penetrates every area of our life. Whether it’s in a business area, whether it’s in a social area, whether it’s in a relationship.

Now, there is a study or survey that I conduct over the years and it keeps coming back over and over again that in business and relationship, trust ranks number one. So trust ranks number one in business and in relationship. Now, interestingly, it also ranked number two in those areas. But social—in a social setting, respect ranked number one. So when you think about it, it tells us that trust has—you can’t just generate your employees at work. They need from you. Yes, they do need trust, but individually, some of them need—maybe they need to be effectively—to effectively communicate with them. Or some of them, they like you to empower them to do more things. So you can’t just—trust doesn’t exist when it comes to—Sorry. I’m sorry. Sorry.

Eddie Turner
What do you do when trust doesn’t exist?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
It creates a vacuum. So creating an area—an environment of effective communication will be the first place to go to. You need to find out why are you not trusted. And again, since you mentioned that, there are three types of trust that I might like to share. So trust is not just one. There are different levels of trust. And one of them is what is called goodwill trust. Now, goodwill trust essentially means the fact that we are human beings, there is a fundamental innate expectations that we have of each other. So when you see a human being, another human being, it doesn’t matter where you see them. Your first reaction is not to run away. Your first reaction is to be cordial or, you know, that’s the goodwill type of trust. Supposed to—when you see a gorilla, 800-pound gorilla on the street or in an elevator, the natural do is to flee. So trust—the goodwill type of trust simply suggests that we have a fundamental expectation from one another.

Okay. And then you—when you come to contractual, the second one is contractual. Now, contractual type of trust can be verbal or written. So there are some people—when you talk about the contractual trust, you talk about agreeing to do things and then you stick to it. For example, we are having this podcast right now because we agreed without written or verbally. So we convey here and then we are doing. So if one of us didn’t show up, we have violated that contractual trust.

Now, the third one is called competence type of trust and is expressly based on skills. So especially when you—when I talk to my—when I go to my doctor, I don’t necessarily know him on a family level, on a personal level or relationship level. I’m going to him expressly because of his skills as a medical doctor. So I trust him based on that. If I’m flying an airline or if I’m taking a flight to a destination, I’m trusting the pilot based on competence trust. Yes. I don’t know other parts of his life, but all I know is he will take me—hopefully he will take me to my destination in good spirits.

So if you understand that there are different types of trust, it will be very difficult to discard another human being. Because when you say you don’t trust somebody—I hear it all the time when I go for coaching. People will say I don’t trust my manager. And I always go back and ask them, how come you don’t trust them? What level of trust you don’t trust them? And then they’ll ask me, what do you mean? Say, well, we have different types of trust.

Eddie Turner
So you gave us three of—I’m sorry. We have a little bit of a delay. So I’m sorry if I keep cross talking you. We have a little delay so sometimes I think you’re done and then I start talking and you’re still going. So my apologies for that.

So my big question is when there—now you’ve given us three levels. When either of these levels is impinged upon, how do we resolve it?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Thank you for that question, Eddie. You resolve it by—again, it goes back to effective communication. You have to communicate. It’s about communication, communication, communication. Otherwise you will have what they call response bias. And response bias is basically when you’re giving somebody the answers that you expect them to have. If that makes sense. So the way you—to fix that problem of distrust is to communicate with the person that you are distrusting. You can’t just let it go. You can’t assume. You have to approach it with effective communication.

Eddie Turner
Thank you. Now, you have a whole chapter on effective communication. Now, that means something different to different people. So what is effective communication?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
The essence of communication is to be understood. If you are not being understood, that means you have not communicated effectively. Effective communication is basically making sure that the language, the level of language that you are using in a communication is understood by whoever that you are communicating with. And there are different types of communication. But to be effective, you have to use the language that the person will understand. Otherwise communication has not taken place. So effective communication is you meeting people where they are and speaking in their language. When I mean language, I’m saying even if it’s in English language, you don’t use academic words or technical words to a person who is not in that—in your field of training. So you speak in a level that people can understand you. That’s what effective communication is.

Eddie Turner
Okay. Thank you for defining that. Speak in the other person’s language and make sure not to make assumptions, talk about it is what I’m hearing you say. So thank you for giving us that solution for those who may not know what to do. They now have a couple of actionable steps that they can take.

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Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim and I are talking today about the five principles of collaboration. And Dr. Ibeh is an executive coach, best-selling author, speaker, scientist, practitioner, a certified mental health and wellness expert and also a prolific author. We’re talking about his book, but I want to shift just a moment.

Dr. Ibeh, you’ve written a lot in Psychology Today and Forbes and I often read your Psychology Today articles. And in reading them, you’ve covered so much ground. Is there one of these articles you’ve written that is like your favorite or you find yourself sharing the most with people?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Yeah, I probably—I wouldn’t say there’s one because there are quite a few of them. But let me just highlight on one. The one I wrote about smiling, you know, smiling in the workplace. There was something about that—that article that got a lot of attention and it has been, you know, should I say republished by other magazines just by doing that.

And then the second one is the most recent one that I just published, the music. How music is very important in the workplace. And I mentioned something about 53 to 72% of surgeons, they listen to music. This study was worldwide. You know, the worldwide study that surgeons listen to music. 53 to 72% of surgeons listen to music while conducting their surgical procedures. So these are the two that I can just, you know, I can go on and on, but I’ll just leave it at that too. But yeah, smiling and using music.

Eddie Turner
All right. Well, the importance of smiling and the importance of music in our lives. Well, if you are not already following Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim, do so and check out those articles that he’s posted in Psychology Today for some incredible insights.

Now, I have someone joining us from LinkedIn, Ezra Miller. Hello, Ezra. Ezra is a loyal follower of the Keep Leading podcast. She’s—I share her tremendous support. She’s joining us all the way from Turkey. And so Ezra says, vulnerability is key for trust. If as a leader, I am not sharing my emotions, then I’m not opening it space for others to share their emotions. And if I am vulnerable, I am opening a space which is safe and brings trust. This is my experience. Thank you very much. I really enjoy listening.

Thank you, Ezra for sharing your reaction to what we’re discussing and sharing what your approach is. What’s your reaction to what Ezra, who’s a master certified coach, is saying here, Dr. Ibeh?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Absolutely. I agree with him. I agree with her. Vulnerability, of course, is a key and it takes—it takes humility to be vulnerable. If you’re not—it’s hard for you to be vulnerable. So trust and vulnerability, they go—they go hand in hand.

And I forgot to—though in what I missed. There’s something that they said—hearing is not the same as agree. You can hear things and disagree, but you are not entitled to disagree until you understand. And this was said by Supreme Justice Sonia Sotomayor. I’m sorry, go ahead.

Eddie Turner
All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Again, I apologize for—there’s a little delay for you and I. So for those who are just joining, so I apologize. I didn’t mean to cut you off there. So thank you for acknowledging what Ezra said there. We appreciate that, Dr. Ibeh. And Ezra Miller, thank you again, Master certified coach all the way from Turkey. We appreciate you and your loyal support of the Keep Leading podcast.

If you are listening and enjoying our conversation, please feel free to share your reaction as well, no matter where you’re joining us from, which platform.

All right. Now, Dr. Ibeh, you talked a lot about communication and trust and this whole goal of how this allows us to collaborate. And that can be difficult at times for people. So if there are barriers, what can we do?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Again, it goes back to—it depends on what the—but it goes back to communication. You can’t—you can’t tell, I mean, you can’t confront whatever issue you are having without communication. Now, communication, we have non-verbal and verbal communication. So we have to communicate. Communication brings down the barrier, especially when it’s effective communication.

Because I cannot tell you how many times I’ve been to workplaces for training to train their executives. And whenever they tell a story about how their employees are not or their managers or supervisors are not doing well, what I’ll ask them, have you mentioned it to them just like you’re telling me? They’ll say, well, I don’t have time and, you know, they are busy. They will come up with all kinds of excuses. I say you have to call them and let them know where they are standing. Because if you’re not, like Bob said that last time, that’s inhumane. When you don’t—when people don’t know where they are standing, that’s inhumane. So I believe communication is everything.

Now, erroneous assumption or untested assumption can lead us to that rabbit hole. You make all kinds of assumptions in your head and then most of the times you come out wrong. So the best thing to do is to learn how to communicate.

Eddie Turner
Thank you for that. And in your book, you make the point that there’s a role that empowerment plays when we’re trying to overcome these barriers.

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Yeah, of course, empowerment. If you don’t allow, if you don’t give people the green light or if you don’t validate what they are doing, it is difficult. It affects job satisfaction. It affects employee engagement, even affects motivation. So if I can simplify it, there is a need for us to empower our workforce, our team members. Now, when we fail to do that, leak one way or the other. You see people, you will see their, you know, they shift eyes. So there’s a need for you to allow your employees to express themselves at work.

I’ll give you another example. When I did a study about—in one of the companies. So what they did was most of the employees were the ones that feel comfortable and they were retained in the workplace. They told me that they liked their supervisors and they liked how they allowed them to do things, you know, make decisions. And because of that, there was a direct relationship between job satisfaction and empowerment.

So I always—I always encourage my clients to make sure that they communicate, number one, with their employees and also allow them to make decisions that affect them directly. I hope that answers your question, Eddie.

Eddie Turner
I apologize. I pressed the wrong button.

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Can you hear me?

Eddie Turner
It does indeed. Yes, I hit the wrong button there for a second. It does indeed, Dr. Ibeh. I appreciate it. Now, I’m really enjoying our conversation and I could talk to you for hours. But tell me, what’s the most important message you would like to leave our audience with?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
My message is very simple. There is not a—there is no difference between how you operate at work, you operate at home. If we learn how to humanize the workplace, what I mean humanize the workplace is when you treat people with utmost respect, when you treat people with absolute trust, when you empower people to do things, to do what they know how to do, or when you are—when you are—when you allow them to willingly—I mean, when you do all those things, you will eventually—they will willingly do work for you.

And companies are losing money. I’m talking about millions of dollars in work-related stress. And this stress, sometimes we generate them. I mean, what I mean generate, I mean the organizational management generate such stress. So if we learn how to humanize the workplace by respecting people, by giving them the benefit of the doubt and trust their judgment because you already train them, just allow them to do the job. And then let them have the willingness to exercise what they know.

If we know how to do that, I’m not about the technical skills because technical skills you already train them. But the soft skills is where—where companies lose the money. And somewhere about 300 billion dollars a year, what organizations lose in occupational-related stress. You know, workers comp, you know, absenteeism, presenteeism, all those things come together because we find a way not to dehumanize the workplace sometimes. So my campaign is to humanize the workplace that people will give you the absolute high productivity and performance.

Eddie Turner
All right, thank you. And on the Keep Leading podcast, I always ask, is there a quote or a piece of advice you’ve received that you use that helps you to keep leading?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Yes, there’s one that I always use. I travel around. I use it to close my workshops. It simply says, if you hear a voice within you say you cannot paint, by all means, paint and that voice will be silenced. That’s by Vincent Van Gogh.

All right, thank you. So basically employees—allow, yeah, allow your people to be and they will do the work for you. Don’t be afraid.

Eddie Turner
All righty. And I want to acknowledge that Stephanie Williams is giving us an emoticon. She’s giving us a heart. So we’ll give that right back to you. We appreciate that. She’s joining us from Facebook. So we appreciate that.

And if people want to know more about you, where can they find you, Dr. Ibeh?

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
They can—I’m very present in LinkedIn. That LinkedIn is my main go-to. And also my email address is partofengagement.net.

Eddie Turner
All right, very good. And we’ll let remind them that your website is FVGrowth.com and they can also learn more about you there as well.

Well, it has certainly been my honor and privilege to have you as my esteemed guest today, Dr. Ibeh. Thank you for joining me here on the Keep Leading podcast live.

Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim
Thank you, sir. Thank you so much, Eddie. I’m grateful.

Eddie Turner
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode, everyone, where we learned more about the five principles of collaboration and how mastering these can make us more effective in our personal and professional lives. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 158 | Dr. Ibeh Agbanyim | The Five Principles of Collaboration appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Leading With the Heart

Episode Summary

In this Keep Leading!® podcast episode titled “Leading with the Heart,” I interview Robert Ackerman, the retired Executive Vice President and COO of Crown Castle, about the importance of leaders demonstrating trust and compassion.

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About Robert Ackerman
With over fifty years of experience spanning government and corporate sectors, Robert Ackerman brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to any discussion on leadership and organizational growth. Robert’s career began with a notable tenure as Deputy Commissioner at the New York State Division of Housing and Community Renewal. In 1998, he transitioned to the private sector, joining Crown Castle, a then-nascent wireless infrastructure start-up and now a multi-billion-dollar wireless infrastructure company. His contributions were instrumental in Crown Castle’s evolution into the largest shared wireless infrastructure company in the United States. His roles at Crown Castle, including Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, exemplify his ability to manage complex operational groups and drive organizational success.

Beyond his executive roles, Bob has shared his wealth of knowledge as a guest lecturer on leadership and career development for various organizations. Additionally, he co-authored “Leading with the Heart: Building successful teams with trust and compassion,” reflecting his philosophy of leadership rooted in trust and empathy. His dynamic leadership, extensive experience, and global perspective make him a compelling voice in discussions about organizational growth, leadership strategies, and career development. Listeners will gain valuable insights from his journey and the impactful lessons learned over his distinguished career.

Website
https://www.bob3ackerman.com/about-the-book/

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-ackerman-b203178/

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/robert.ackerman.353

Robert Ackerman’s Book
https://bit.ly/40R1zoe

Leadership Quote
“We rise by lifting others.” Robert Ingersoll

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Connect with Eddie Turner
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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Inspired by what you hear? Share the episode with your network and help spread the message of empowerment and leadership. Use the hashtag #KeepLeadingPodcast and join the community of listeners who are dedicated to continuous growth and leadership excellence.

Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello everyone. Welcome to Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional speeches.

We’re broadcasting today live on LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube. If you’re joining us on one of these platforms, let us know. You can do so by emoticons, you can do so by typing into the chat and letting us know your reaction to what you’re hearing. You can ask us a question. We’ll give you an answer. Hit that share button so that your friends can join us or see the replay that’s available instantly when we’re done. I’m going to invite you to follow myself, but also follow my guest on LinkedIn if you’re not doing so already.

Today, we’re going to talk about leading with the heart. To do that, I’m going to interview the executive vice president and chief operating officer of Crown Castle, who’s now retired. He’s going to explain why leaders must show trust and compassion as they lead.

Now, why Robert Ackerman? He has over 50 years of experience spanning government and corporations. He brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to any discussion on leadership and organizational growth as a result. His career began with a notable 10 years as the deputy commissioner at the New York State Division of Housing and Community Renewal. In 1998, he transitioned to the private sector. And there, he joined Crown Castle, then a national wireless infrastructure startup that’s now a multi-billion dollar wireless infrastructure company. His contributions were instrumental in turning Crown Castle into the largest shared wireless infrastructure company in the United States. And as I mentioned at the top, he rose to become the executive vice president and chief operating officer, exemplifying his ability to manage complex operational groups and drive operational success. And he is the co-author of Leading with the Heart: Building Successful Teams with Trust and Compassion, which we’re going to discuss today.

Bob, welcome to Keep Leading Live.

Robert Ackerman:
All right, well, thank you, Eddie. I’m humbled to be here. That introduction is quite impressive and I hope I live up to everyone’s expectations. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Eddie Turner:
Well, you’re an impressive man and so I’m so excited to have you. Tell us what I may have missed about you and your impressive background.

Robert Ackerman:
Um, not much. I mean, usually when people ask me, I’m happily married for 30 years. I have five kids that keep me humble and honest and I’m always trying to push the boundaries. When you mentioned I retired recently from Crown Castle, I don’t view it as a retirement. I view it as a change of pace, not a retirement. I’m not sitting playing golf someplace. I’m always looking to do new adventures and help out wherever I can. So, it’s a good life. I wake up every morning, I feel blessed and it’s a great life that I’m leading.

Eddie Turner:
Outstanding. Well, many people may not know your company by name, Crown Castle, but they have experienced directly the impact of your company if they’ve gone to a sporting event. Tell us about it.

Robert Ackerman:
Oh yeah. Well, it’s funny. When I was first approached by a headhunter when Crown Castle, at the time it was only Castle Transmission and they were becoming Crown Castle, they approached me and said they’d gotten my name and they thought I’d be somebody that would be a good fit with this new startup company. And as they explained to me what the company did over breakfast at Denny’s, I’m like, I don’t know telecom. I’m not sure what you’re talking about. And they said, well, but you know real estate. And I did know real estate. And it’s really a real estate infrastructure business and it’s a matter of building towers around the nation and having customers that we’re familiar with like Verizon and T-Mobile and AT&T launch their networks off of that infrastructure. And I said, all right, I’ll give that a whirl and I signed on. Like I said, back in 1998, back then I thought it was like the Wild West. People are out there gunning around and shooting. I’m like, oh my goodness, what did I get myself in for?… And through time and experience and, you know, one of my favorite sayings is asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness. I asked a lot of questions of a lot of people and I found that people were very willing to help teach me both the business side of the tower company and help me mentor as a leader and a coach.

Eddie Turner:
Outstanding. So yes, when people go to big games and stadiums, it’s that infrastructure that allows them to enjoy their wireless technology and taking selfies and streaming and broadcast and things that they like to do.

Robert Ackerman:
And one of my best examples was, we do a lot of the infrastructure at stadiums. And we were in Phoenix for the Super Bowl and we had wired the entire facility at the Super Bowl when it was New England versus Seattle. And we hadn’t really—we tested it, but the true test as you said is at halftime or at kickoff. I invited, we had a suite there because we had just put the infrastructure in. I invited about 15 executives from Seattle from one of my primary customers. I won’t tell you which customer it was. But I invited about 15 of them down. So we go down there and at the kickoff, I have all this equipment that I’m looking at in the back and everything was going great. People are using it and seamlessly and then halftime the same thing, the halftime show and then comes the end of the—if you remember the Super Bowl, I have all these Seattle people in my suite watching the game, looks like they’re about to beat New England and the rest is history. So I said, I couldn’t get out of there quick enough and I’m like, oh my goodness, right? What I thought was going to turn into be a great customer experience turned out to be a huge upset. But yeah.

Eddie Turner:
Yes. The huge blown call where you think the ball’s going to Beast Mode and they throw it instead and a no-name player catches it.

Robert Ackerman:
Yeah, yeah. It got really quiet in the suite very quickly. But they’re still good as customers. They appreciated that I invited them down and I was happy that the whole infrastructure worked well during that whole event because it’s very important as you realize it’s coming up, you know, again this weekend.

Eddie Turner:
Well, so while things didn’t work out quite the way the Seattle fans had hoped, from your perspective, it was a successful game.

Robert Ackerman:
It was a success. It was a success, yes.

Eddie Turner:
Outstanding. Well, thank you for that priceless story. Thanks for sharing that with us. Definitely. So folks have a different appreciation for who Crown Castle is, who happens to be based right here in Houston, Texas, by the way, as they enjoy their game in the Super Bowl this year and other events going forward.

Well, you transitioned from that to becoming an author and you wrote with my good friend from Harvard there, Dr. eBay—uh, and we pronounce his last name properly, Agbanium.

Robert Ackerman:
Yeah, good for you. I always had difficulty. I’ve known him for years and then good job.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. So, Leading with the Heart: Building Successful Teams with Trust and Compassion. What motivated you two gentlemen to write this book?

Robert Ackerman:
Well, it—I mean, eBay, how we first met was I had moved from—I ran the East Coast for the company and then they asked me to go out and transition to run the West Coast. And the common denominator every day was eBay would come in and eBay was actually working for UPS and he would bring me packages, etc. and we struck up a relationship and it goes to show you, you never know who you’re dealing with. And you should always keep an open heart. And so one day eBay came into me and said, will you do me a favor? I said, of course, what can I do for you? He said, I’m writing my PhD and I want you to review some of the dissertation that I’m writing and tell me what you think along with a book that he was writing at the time too. I’m like, what? Really? And started up this relationship and then eBay and I became friends and he encouraged me to write two other books earlier. It wasn’t about leadership. It was about lessons learned and making important wise decisions. And then when I had heard—then when I announced that I was going to be leaving Crown Castle, I never realized how well thought of I was from our staff. I used to travel around. I had about 35 offices…. I’d travel around to two offices a week. During the winter, I’d go south, during the summer, I’d go north, right? And I got to know everybody because I think one of the key ingredients to being great leaders is getting to know people at—and there was probably a couple thousand people. So when I announced I was leaving, people said, how am I going to get my dose of Bob in the future? What am I going to do? Where’s that going to come from? And eBay and I were talking and eBay goes, it sounds like a piece of the next book that we need to do and he leads me through that writing journey and so really it became something that people said, how am I going to still get that dose? And I still hear from people. It’s so heartwarming to be—I’ve been out of it now for about two years and people still reach out to me all the time and I try and encourage them and give them some guidance. So that was the impetus behind writing this book, Leading with the Heart.

Eddie Turner:
Well, that is fantastic. I love that concept of getting another dose of Bob. And now if they’re attending the program today, they get a chance to get another dose of Bob. I see we have a few folks that have joined us on YouTube. So great. Thank you for sharing that. So tell us, you know, what really—what does it really mean to lead with the heart?

Robert Ackerman:
Well, like I told you, when I first started in the telecom company, it was like the Wild West and I didn’t know if I was going to fit in. I was concerned. But we all know—when I go around and I ask the different groups I talk to or the people within the company, who’s worked for a great leader? Who’s worked—who’s had a great mentor? What are those things that you’re looking for? And everybody knows, right? They treat me with respect. I feel empowered, right? They’re compassionate, right? They know about it. When I hear about people that are in an organization where you need to separate people from their bosses and not become personalized, it’s not in my gene pool. It’s not in my makeup. I need to know people. I need to see what’s ticking with them, what their concerns are. And I learned a long time ago, there are a lot of smart people around that knew telecom much better than I did. I started asking for that help, right? And so I always surrounded myself with people that are smarter than I am. I’d empower them, I’d encourage them. It’s not about me, it’s about them. And I think when you practice that, people get to see that it’s about you. Enabling the dreams of others is one of those other anecdotes I always go by. What can I do to help you within your job to become better? Because if I’ve spent a lot of time or I’ve had my manager spend a lot of time on hiring, it’s incumbent on you about how you motivate and train and encourage, right? We spend a lot of time and effort in that and I can’t not become compassionate with people that I work with every single day.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. Now, when you are building your team, are there certain qualities that you look for in the individuals that you select?

Robert Ackerman:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it starts with humility, right? People need to be humble. And then depending on the job, there’s certain jobs. Like we had a lot of engineers within the company. I don’t know anything about engineering, but I know that people need to have the soft skill, the interpersonal skill. When you’re an engineer, right? That’s not always, you know, I used to tease them all the time. Come on you guys, you know, explain it to me like I’m a seventh grader because man, they are fascinating, right? They know all the tower structural integrity, all this important information to keep my business—to keep it, keep towers upright. Let me put it that way, right? And so I always—you needed a good soft skill, a good ability to present to the common folk because a lot of the people that we used to have to deal with were local zoning and permitting people that didn’t like the—not my backyard. I don’t need a tower nearby. They need that telephone service when they have an emergency, but they don’t like that visual. So, I always look for people that were humble, that knew certain subject matter and that could work well with others, right? That could help explain to others what they’re trying to achieve.

Eddie Turner:
Now, you’re talking about compassion. You’re talking about humility. There’s some people that are listening that might say, hey, wait a minute, this is just a little too soft for my liking…. What do you say to that?

Robert Ackerman:
I used to get that pushback when I first went into the telecom business. I used to hear that pushback. And I just—I used to have a short little pyramid. If you hire and train the right people and they’re compassionate and they lead with the heart, they have soft skills where they can communicate well, our customers will feel it. I don’t want to have employees that customers feel like, well, you’re the contractor that I need to deal with. I want them to feel like we’re part of the same team for the same goal. And when our customers view us compassionately, that we care, we care about your company as much as you do. In fact, I used to encourage people, know more about our customer than their employees know. I want you to know how they’re doing. Are they having hard times? Are they struggling in particular areas of the country? And show it in a compassionate way. And when you have great employees, customers feel it, and when you have great customers, then financially you’ll become successful. Publicly traded company, we need to get a return for our customers, but I always thought you get that through the first stage of hiring the right people that work well together.

Eddie Turner:
Very nice. I have a mentor who used to say that the customer experience will never exceed the employee experience. So to your point, the employees have to have a feel a certain way about the organization and therefore must show up a certain way before they can then transfer that to what your employee and what your customers will feel and experience.

Robert Ackerman:
Well, I was always fortunate too. Like the stadiums we did, at the time we weren’t allowed to talk about it, but I can now because I’m not at Crown anymore. We used to do all the infrastructure for Disney, for Disney World, Disneyland, Disney in Hawaii. And I got to meet with a gentleman that some people probably know, Lee Cockrell. Lee Cockrell, he was in charge of Disney World. He wrote a lot of books and we used to go and I’d bring my management team there on an annualized basis and talk about customer service. I mean, Disney, Lee would tell you, we know we’re not—we know we’re not inexpensive. We know and 80% of their customers were repeat customers. So customer service became critical and we used to learn from Lee and his staff as what that meant for customers. And that was always a worthwhile trip every single year. And we used to let our company, our employees bring their spouses and their children and it was part of a team building exercise that always paid huge dividends.

Eddie Turner:
Well, from world class stadiums to working at the happiest place on earth, sounds like you really had one of the best jobs out there, Bob.

Robert Ackerman:
I did. I loved my job. From the first couple of years I was a little nervous and then when we started hitting stride, I loved my job. It was time for me to leave just because I had some other ventures I wanted to go to, but I miss those people and that company every day.

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing. I’m going to pause here, Bob, so we can acknowledge the sponsor of the Keep Leading podcast.

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I’m talking to Robert Ackerman, the retired executive vice president, chief operating officer of Crown Castle. And we’re talking about leading with the heart. Please let us know if you’re here, if you have a question, you want to just share a reaction to what you’re hearing. We’d love to have you be part of our discussion.

So there’s a lot in the news today about changing opinions, viewpoints when it comes to diversity, Bob. So when you’re talking about how you build these teams and how it involves compassion and trust, is there still a role for diversity?

Robert Ackerman:
Well, there is. And within the company when I was at Crown, it became apparent to me that diversity not only helped within the organization itself, it helped from a perspective of customers. A lot of customers have very diverse workforces and we needed a diverse workforce. And it had nothing to do with, as you hear a lot of today, compromising on credentials. There are a ton of people with lots of great credentials. Go find them and hire them and a diverse workforce absolutely can provide a better experience for your company, for your employees and therefore your bottom line. So I know people get hung up today. I hear it all the time. And I used to have—there used to be a gentleman I learned a lot from a long time ago. He was from Trinidad Tobago. He was a labor union. His name was Joe Barato. And Joe used to say to me, Bob, we all know what’s fair and equitable. We all know. We come about it from a different viewpoint, but we all know in our hearts. And he and I used to sit across the table from each other negotiating labor contracts and union contracts. And a lot of his labor force was very diverse and at the time, my company was trying to become more diverse and Joe would tell me, it’s about people, Bob. It’s not about quotas or anything else. There are a ton of people out there that have all sorts of qualifications. You’d be better served if you come together from different viewpoints and different social experiences, and ultimately you’ll end up being a better company and shareholders will be rewarded with a better bottom line.

Eddie Turner:
Yes. Well, thank you for sharing that and coming from an executive leader like yourself, a prestigious company, that certainly is an interesting viewpoint to have and to share with our listeners. So we appreciate that.

When you have a conflict on a team, what role does leading with the heart, trust and compassion play in resolving the conflict?

Robert Ackerman:
Oh yeah. I mean that—it’s critical. It reminds me, I used to use the example, everybody’s seen America’s Got Talent or Britain’s Got Talent, right? Everybody saw it. Everybody knew who Simon Cowell was. I used to use the example when I spoke to people about Simon Cowell, he was at Britain’s Got Talent and they had a young gentleman, a red-headed Ed Sheeran looking guy come out and he went to sing. And you could tell he was extremely nervous. He had fans out in the audience. And he started to sing and he had a good voice and Simon did the thing where people always get very upset with him and they kind of waved off the music and the music stopped, right? And I used to use this as an example for people. What Simon did was he said, you know, the gentleman’s name was Gilth. You know, Gilth, I think you have a good voice. I think you’re very nervous. I think you need to calm down and I don’t like the choice you made with the song. Go get a drink, come back, pick a different song. And what he did, he did it in front of all these people, right? So all of a sudden you have an audience that is now rooting for Gilth, right? Gilth is going to come back out, he’s going to sing again. He picks a better song. And I used to use that as an example when I worked. I said, look, we had an executive, an Indian gentleman, Ram Karan, come into our company. And he talked to us about feedback and everything else. And he came up with a saying that I’ll always remember: if people don’t know where they stand, it’s inhumane, right?

Eddie Turner:
Yes.

Robert Ackerman:
Simon took that and Simon went and said, Gilth, I don’t like what you’re doing now. I think you have talent, right? Go back and start again and he let everybody know what he was doing. It wasn’t out of cruelty, it was out of compassion that he wanted—Gilth went on to get the golden buzzer. Gilth went on to get a music contract, right? And if it wasn’t for giving him critical feedback at that time, at that moment—not at a six-month review, not at the end of the year—people need that compassionate feedback at the time. If someone is being disruptive in the audience, in the office space, I want to talk to them about, is there something more going on in your life that I could help with if you’re comfortable with because when we spent all the time and effort to hire you and motivate you and train you, we didn’t think this was going to be an issue. How can we help resolve? And as a manager, if you don’t do that, then you’re the person that’s becoming the issue for me that you need to be a compassionate leader and use those type of examples to help with that workforce environment.

Eddie Turner:
Okay. Well, thank you. For those who are listening to this discussion and say, you know, I just—I struggle with this. If they’re struggling with leading from the heart, with trust and compassion, what advice would you give them?

Robert Ackerman:
I say give it a whirl. I’m sure when I first started and I saw what was going on in the telecom business, there were companies. I’ll name one. There’s a company called Omni Point. You may not have heard of them anymore because they don’t exist anymore. And those were the gunslingers in town. And when they started and we had to interact with them, they were not compassionate people. They were not—they didn’t view us as teams, tower company with their telecom business. They didn’t view it as teamwork. They were little dictators. They were, you’re not doing good enough. They were hard to deal with. It took up much more time on a percentage basis than other customers would take up. They were struggled to deal with and they struggled as a company, right? If you’re not in touch and in tune like Lee Cockrell was at Disney World with his staff, then I’m predicting that there may be the exceptions. Somebody may do well, some company may be good being a bully and having dictatorial practices and you work for me and right? Ultimately, I think nine times out of 10, that’s not going to become a successful company that’s going to attract talented people. One of the best things that happened with me when I was at Crown, I would have customers knock on my door. I want to come work with you guys. And that was because they saw the way we dealt compassionately with customers and with employees.

Eddie Turner:
All right. Well, thank you for that. What is the main message you want to leave our listeners with for today?

Robert Ackerman:
One of the things I keep at my nightstand. It’s a little saying and I believe in it. Sometimes it makes me a little emotional when I talk about it. And it said, we rise by lifting others, right? If you’re in it for yourself, if you’re not—I get more satisfaction out of doing things for other people, for other entities. Part of what I’m looking to do now is to help other people in a new amusing way that at some point I’ll let people know. But I’ve never ever regretted helping someone else and it always lifted me by doing that. And enabling the dreams that other people have. If you don’t even know what their dreams are, I’ll give you a really quick little example. There’s a woman we hired that we thought was going to be really great and she was struggling. And I went to her and I said, what seems to be the issue? And her passion wasn’t to be in the telecom business. She didn’t want to do that. She wanted to write children’s books. And I said to her, okay, I’ll help you figure out a way that you can write children’s books and I’ll reach out to see if there are other people that could help you with it. She became a better employee. Eventually, she left, but she knew I cared about her and her passion and by helping her to achieve that, she went on to open up her own little day nurseries, preschool nursery and named some children’s books that ended up getting published, right? So when you help other people and—and that—I tell that story, it warms my heart that Rebecca achieves her goals and her dream.

Eddie Turner:
We’re someplace Rebecca sitting there better off because you chose to rise by lifting her up. So thank you for sharing that. And what excellent words to use to help us all keep leading. Where can people learn more about you, Bob?

Robert Ackerman:
Well, I’m about to launch a web page. You can friend me on Facebook. You can learn about me on Instagram and on LinkedIn. But you can friend me on Facebook and I’m going to be converting that Facebook page into a new venture I’m doing. Actually, I’ll give you a little sneak preview. After I left, I was bored. When I left Crown, I was bored. I started, I bought 150 acres out in South Carolina and I started, I thought I was going to just do some ATVing and doing some things out there. I’m turning it into a children’s amusement park.

Eddie Turner:
Oh.

Robert Ackerman:
And I want children to go there for free. I’ve reached out to local churches and local schools to have them out there. I built Jurassic Park. I built the Wild West town. I built a castle. I built zip lines and you can go digging for dinosaur bones. I’m doing all of this and I hope to launch that this spring by bringing children out there to spend a day supervised by their parents and mentors and all because it gives me a great feeling.

Eddie Turner:
Well, wonderful. It’s been such a pleasure to have you. What an honor to have you. We’re going to encourage everybody to follow you on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram as you suggested, to get a copy of Leading with the Heart: Building Successful Teams with Trust and Compassion by you, Robert Ackerman, and Dr. eBay Agbanium. It is truly an honor to have you and wishing you continued success in your retirement and with your golf game there.

Robert Ackerman:
Thank you so much, Eddie. It’s been a pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity to be with you.

Eddie Turner:
Thank you. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of Keep Leading Live. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or position. Leadership is action. Leadership is an activity. It’s not about once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 157 | Robert Ackerman | Leading With the Heart appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Leading With Purpose and Empathy

Episode Summary

Join me on the Keep Leading!® podcast for an enlightening episode on “Leading with Purpose and Empathy.” I interviewed Bill Davis, Chair of the University of Arizona Global Campus Chair—Forbes School of Business & Technology Bachelor of Arts in Operations Management and Analysis (BAOMA) Advisory Board. Bill emphasized the critical need for leaders to embody care, empathy, and compassion by taking initiative and embracing servant leadership.

Whether you are a seasoned leader or just starting your leadership journey, this episode will equip you with the knowledge and tools to lead more effectively and compassionately. Tune in to discover how you can make a lasting impact by leading with heart and vision.

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About Bill Davis
Bill Davis, Chair of the University of Arizona Global Campus – Forbes School of Business & Technology Bachelor of Arts in Operations Management and Analysis (BAOMA) Advisory Board, boasts a distinguished career in both the corporate and academic worlds. Over three decades at PepsiCo saw him in numerous leadership roles, transitioning seamlessly into academia, where he has dedicated the last 20 years to teaching over 300 courses online and in-person. His extensive background spans consulting, management, leadership, sales, marketing, strategic planning, human resources, and organizational change.

Bill has earned numerous accolades for teaching, leadership, and scholarship in academia, including the Distinguished CAP Award for Excellence in Teaching and the Institute of Certified Professional Manager’s (ICPM) Managerial Excellence Award. He has authored and co-authored over 160 articles and two books, contributing significantly to higher education and business knowledge. Bill’s dedication to student success and academic excellence is evident through his numerous educational roles and achievements.

Website
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LinkedIn
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Transcript

Eddie:
Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live and the Keep Leading podcast are dedicated to leadership development and insights. I am your host, Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and keynote speeches.

We’re streaming live today on Facebook, YouTube, and of course, LinkedIn. If you are tuned in with us, we want you to be a part of our conversation. Feel free to drop a question in the comment section. Tell us where you’re from. We want to hear from you. And hit that share button and then your colleagues can be able to join us as well or be able to see the recording instantly as it concludes. And if you’re not following me and my guests on social media, I’m going to invite you to do that. We’d love to have you join our community.

Well, of course, on the Keep Leading podcast, I love talking about leadership. And there are a lot of ways to exercise leadership. There is no one formula. There’s not just this perfect way that we can summarize all the great ways to exercise leadership. However, there are many. And my guest today suggests that one of the most effective ways of leading is to lead with purpose and empathy. Joining me today on the Keep Leading podcast, Keep Leading Live, to discuss leading with purpose and empathy is Bill Davis.

Bill Davis is the chair of the University of Arizona’s Global Campus, Forbes School of Business and Technologies, Bachelor of Arts, Operations Management and Analysis. He’s also the chair of our board. He boasts a distinguished career in both corporate and academia. Over three decades at Pepsico saw him in numerous leadership roles and then he transitioned into academia where he spent the last 20 years teaching over 300 courses.

Bill has earned numerous accolades for his teaching, leadership, and scholarship in academia. He’s authored and co-authored over 160 articles and two books. Now, I did not know Bill when I lived in Chicago, but I have to tell you that any of my interactions with Bill, one of the nicest men you’ll ever meet, always reminds me of home. He is the epitome of all things Chicago, especially the Bears and the Cubs. Here with me today is Bill Davis. Bill, welcome to Keep Leading Live.

Bill:
Eddie, thank you so much for that great introduction. It’s such a pleasure and an honor to be here. I look at this as a platform to pay it forward. Your show is first class. I’ve watched your podcast before and I’ve certainly enjoyed working with you on our Board of Advisors and I appreciate you for all the input and insights you’ve given us and, you know, you’re a lifter and I’d be remiss if I did not start with this quote. I like to start my days with a leadership quote now and then. But one of the things you said Eddie a while back and I read your book, and here’s what you said. You said, “Leadership is about making people feel valued and included while inspiring them to be their best selves.” And that came from your book, 140 Simple Messages. And what I’d like to say is you are giving me a platform here to be my best self because I love teaching. I have a passion for leading. I love leadership. I love marketing. I like seeing progress and to be on your show and also to teach at the University of Arizona Global Campus is an honor and a pleasure for me because I’m able to reach people and help people coach. You know, I consider myself a leader coach and I just do the best I can to further others’ success. So thank you very much, Eddie.

Eddie:
Well, thank you for those kind words and thank you for sharing that, Bill. And we have several folks who have joined us across platforms. The platform LinkedIn did not pass the ID, but one person who’s joined us says, “Greetings and good afternoon. Keep the positive energy and vibes going.” So we want to thank that individual for sharing their comments with us. We appreciate that. Another person says, “Hello from Southern Mississippi.” I’m going to assume the MS stands for, “representing the University of Arizona’s Global Campus.” So you have a colleague there or a student. I’m not sure which capacity.

Bill:
Excellent, excellent.

Eddie:
And I said Mississippi because in my mind I hesitated because I’m like, is it Mississippi or Missouri? My two-state abbreviations lack of knowledge there is showcasing itself….

Bill:
And I’m going to say based on our Champs program, that could be Larissa Armstead. She is a great leader in our Champs program, you know, where they do mentoring and coaching for students. So if that is her, welcome Larissa, but I know we’ve got a good audience here, so very nice.

Eddie:
Well, since you brought it up and since folks have chimed in from that aspect, I was going to ask you about this at the end of our interview. Let’s talk about it now. For folks who are not aware, please tell us what does it mean for—and let me see, I’m not sure if this is going to show right. Let’s see, there we go. What does it mean to pursue a Bachelor of Arts in Operations Management and Analysis?

Bill:
Well, I will tell you this prepares you for so many opportunities and what I really enjoy about this particular program, you know, it helps individuals to become general managers, operational managers, analysis, quality managers. You know, we have 15 core courses in here that can prepare you very well. And thanks to some of your inputs too, Eddie, in the Board of Advisors, we’ve even added a leadership and motivation course in there because you have to deal with people, right? But this particular program will give you, you know, skills in decision modeling, accounting, finance, it’ll give you statistics. It’s all there bundled in those 15. And of course, you go through your gen ads, but when you get into these particular courses we have, such a great selection, project management, it’s all there, you know, like I said from accounting and you know, the good thing that Chuck Muse said that was one of the executives in Beyond Meat in one of our recent meetings to a student. The student said, you know, some of the 15 courses I do extremely well in and some I’m kind of average and he inputted in there and he said this and I thought it was pretty profound, so I’d be remiss if I didn’t repeat it. He said, you know, as he was an executive, you know, he said the first thing is show up with the right attitude, you know, come in. He says and you’re not going to be exceptional in every course. He said, but if you know how they fit into a business and you understand the purpose of accounting, finance, if you understand, you know, leadership, marketing, and the ones you’re good at, you’ll shine in and you’ll grow in. So that’s kind of the one thing that we do here is we just prepare for careers. We want our students, we want adult learners to be successful, to be able to thrive. We are there as coaches. You know, I mentioned the Champs program. I think that’s very good. Our Chris Services. We’ve got so many components that bring it all together as one team and we’re all better together in terms of helping students move forward. And Eddie, you’re part of that. And our board is a part of it. I’d be remiss if we didn’t recognize Scott Mullen, Chuck Muse, Dr. Sophia Satterwhite, Dr. Avisha Sadi Jihad, and of course yourself. So what a great dynamic, what great support for the greater good. So thank you.

Eddie:
Well, thank you and you do an outstanding job leading us and this program is truly transforming lives. I love being a part of it because of seeing the real-life results in the lives of students and how their lives are better and what they’re able to do with employment after the program and how their careers truly are changed as a result. So kudos to you for the job you’re doing, kudos to the university for having this a program that really answers a need in the marketplace.

Bill:
Yeah, thank you.

Eddie:
And of course, you do a great job leading our board. We’re some really accomplished people on there. Now, Bill, there’s some other folks who have joined us who want to comment here. Let me see. Oh, this was affirmation of comment earlier. She says, “My pleasure. Bill is an inspiration. I’m happy to call him a friend and cohort.” Very nice. Thank you for sharing that. And yes, this person is affirming that it is Mississippi and this is Chivas Matthews, who I believe I met on one of our board advisory calls. Some great work that he’s doing. He’s another success story from the program. So thank you, Chivas, for your input there…. Leo Patrick. He’s joining us on LinkedIn. Greetings from Scottsdale, Arizona. Go Cards. Thank you, Leo. We appreciate you. Karen Jensen. She says, “Hi, Bill and Eddie.” Karen Jensen here. I can personally attest to the fact that Bill and his leading with purpose and empathy as I work with him at UAGC. Thanks for this great event. You got a lot of fans, Bill.

Bill:
Thank you, Karen.

Eddie:
Thanks, Karen. And I can certainly attest that Eddie, says another LinkedIn user. And finally, one person says here, “Bill’s exemplary leadership knowledge really helps you adapt your current leadership style with a proven corporate leadership success. With his advice, I can maintain what the Navy taught me with what is expected in the corporate sector.” So beautiful. So I’m not sure why I’m not getting the names today. I got Leo’s, but all these others I’ve been come through. Thank you for your contribution. We appreciate your affirmation of Bill, which is one of the reasons I invited him on here. I think the world of Bill, but also let us know how the program has helped you. So we appreciate that, folks, very much.

Bill:
Mhm.

Eddie:
So Bill, let’s talk about that, man. This idea of leading with purpose and empathy. Tell us what makes that important.

Bill:
Well, I, you know, so important to have purposeful goals. You know, for example, I’ll stay current here with education and one of the things that I’ve done is embraced our vision and that is to empower, enrich, support, and graduate students. You know, so the one thing that I try to do is keep my objectivity and understand my purpose, you know, to share, to care, to give back and that drives me. So when I look at the students and I look at my commitment and dedication and my colleagues and friends’ dedication and on the team to further student success, that is very synergistic. I mean there’s great synergy there, there’s momentum and I just love what I do. And when you love what you do, you’re more creative and you model those behaviors, you know, but you have to be committed and dedicated to leading with purpose and to find that purpose. And, you know, Eddie, I’ll just as an easy example, just seeing the intro to your show demonstrates to me that you love what you do. You have a strong sense of purpose for educating and paying it forward and helping people. But purpose is just our understanding our why. Why do we do things and, you know, again, mine is to inspire and guide others. I’ve developed a lot of leaders throughout my career from the bottom up when I’m talking about my careers in the Joyce Beverage 7 Up Independent Distributor to my management executive roles at Pepsi to transitioning all into the higher education in the marketplace. You know, I like seeing people succeed and I like to lead, lift, equip, and support others so they’re successful. And also too, it doesn’t end there though. You kind of nurture them in their transformation. So you’re always engaged, you know, to manage yourself and also help them grow and lift. And purpose anchors a leader. It anchors you and it provides direction and resilience and that passion I have has always allowed me to bounce back during challenges or times maybe when it didn’t quite go right, but it’s all about, you know, alignment, aligning to the organization that you serve, you know, the goals, the critical goals, the things, keeping those top in mind. When I was younger and all I always said, you know, truth in business is the bottom line. So I was always anchored, you know, we got to have business acumen too and I have that. But I also understand too it’s so important on the people’s side to develop that rapport, find that common ground, align to the mission, help people understand how they impact that mission and also letting them know to talk the walk and walk the talk and realize that people are watching more how you walk it than you talk it. The first way you establish credibility is through your words. The next part is through your actions. So you have to remember that you’re on all the time, whether that’s a discussion in the car, whether that’s coaching someone in a store, helping someone, whether it’s a student on a one-on-one, whether it’s in a classroom, you’re on and people are mirroring your reaction sometimes. So when you lead with EQ and you lead with purpose and you put yourself in their shoes and it’s not hard to see where someone might be at because we were there. You know, and we realize that this journey brings challenges. So you can remember, I can remember for example back when I was pursuing my college education and I had the wonderful jobs in Chicago on the south and north sides and I’d get in the car to go to my class that was in Oakbrook or somewhere and, you know, I was always on the go, but I understood all those challenges and the one thing I have to say about UAGC is our culture care that we have ingrained a whole caring outlook to how we do things. You know, we pause. We understand students and we understand the students that are thriving and how to give them the right words at the right time so they continue or give them the coaching they need. So I hope that kind of covers it because what are some—

Eddie:
It does. It does. You know….

Eddie:
It does, Bill. Thank you. And you gave me a lot there. So let me just unpack that a little bit if I might. First, you slid something in there I’ve never heard, Bill. You said I have to lead, lift, and equip. That’s a beautiful way of saying it. And to your point about how we lead by example, yes, my grandmother used to say, “Don’t preach me a sermon, show me one.” So it’s so important to model effective leadership and clearly by all the comments that we’ve received here today, you are doing just that. In fact, we’ve had a couple of other people weigh in here. We’ve got Daniel Castell, who I believe is in Panama. I actually just got his book recently and I promoted that book. Yeah, so Daniel’s new book just came out in English and Spanish. So Daniel, thank you for letting us know you think this is a great episode. Rebecca Good. She says, “Thank you for this interview, Eddie. Bill is sharing such valuable insights on leading with purpose and empathy. His perspective on servant leadership is always truly inspiring.” Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, Daniel. And then also, we have Rodney. Rodney Donley says, “Greetings from Dixon, Illinois. Go Cubs.” We appreciate that, Rodney. Thank you. Now, Rebecca brings up a good point there. Another aspect of leadership, Bill, that you’ve written about is servant leadership. How does that factor to this concept of leading with purpose and empathy?

Bill:
Sure. One of the things I dedicated myself to early on and it probably has to do with the mentality that I picked up about customer service and care in my early days. You know, I knew that if I didn’t be reliable, credible, you know, store door delivery, working in different business channels as I serviced accounts like supermarkets and convenience stores. I’m talking about the front line as a front line performer that I knew those fundamentals and I knew that those things had to be at a standard. So that’s the one thing that I learned is service means sales, right? And that’s something I kind of took with me into the market. But establishing credibility so people saw you as reliable, honest, dependable, could count on you because that worked really well in relationship marketing. Now, to take that into my administrative roles and to grow in organizations like Pepsi, etc. and move up the ladder and get more responsibility, I realized that serving people was the utmost priority, you know, to be there, to be reliable. You know, in servant leadership, I adapted and embraced a long time ago and to work selflessly with followers, you know, your teammates, your employees, everyone to achieve the shared goals that we’re all looking for and that’s when I talk about alignment to organizational goals, strategies, because that’s so important and it improves the collective rather than individual welfare. Now, I always tried to use equity in there, understand that everybody is a little different so I have to reach people differently too. But I wanted to stand for something. I wanted to stand for my ethical leadership, for example, a system code of conduct based on moral and legal duties and obligations. That’s something that I remember through the years. I’ve got pretty good mental acuity so I’ll be popping in some of that here and there and I don’t mean that from an ego side. It’s just that I’ve been taught by so many great leaders and I’ve learned on and through and off the job that I love those concepts, but I really truly believe in ethical leadership.

Eddie:
And that’s one of the great values you bring to the organization. You’re not just someone who’s an academic, which is nothing wrong with that, but you have this excellent corporate career that you’re able to kind of fold in the practical aspects of leadership and how that looks inside an organization, which is really important in a program like this….

Bill:
Yeah, and I appreciate that Eddie because, you know, I have so much respect for people that have achieved all of these accomplishments, you know, and I credit education for my success too because it gave me my master’s degree and business administration degree gave me the tools to anchor on and understand those theories. But the thing that I always understood too is to how to break that down so it’s practical so that people could apply this, you know, on and through the job so it would lift and so forth. But the whole idea of serving people, those servant leadership, that’s one aspect of me that I’ve embraced. I believe in being a servant leader, but I also believe in being an ethical leader. I believe in being authentic and genuine and to model consistency. You know, and that goes back to that phrase that I talked about and I’m going to give John Maxwell credit for that because I went to his training and he always would say, you know, model consistency, lead and lift others, equip them for success and have always have a positive attitude and nurture them in their transformation. So that kind of thing became part of my DNA and, you know, and I just try to serve. I mean, I am lined up to UAGC. I love our leadership. We have, and I learn from everybody. You know, one of the things that I’ve learned in my career and I’ve had a long one is that I learned from people I haven’t met. I watched their videos, podcasts, read their books. I’ve learned from people maybe that I might not have been 100% aligned for, but I had to work for them and I did work for them and serve them well, but maybe they taught me things that maybe I would do or not do. And then also too, the people that took an interest in me like you did here to allow me to be on your wonderful podcast and to thrive, to pay it forward. So all of that I value and I truly value the experiential learning that I’ve obtained as well as the formal learning, but I just try to make it practical and break it down. So.

Eddie:
Thank you for highlighting that, Bill. That’s so important. So that aspect of servant leadership and how it factors in. We have Daniel amplifying here saying, “Thanks a lot, Eddie and Bill. Talk the walk and walk the talk. Great insight.” We appreciate you commenting there, Daniel. Also from LinkedIn, we don’t have a name on this one, unfortunately, but it says, “Great points all around. Comments from collective audience included. I never would have imagined my career would have been would have landed me here. Support structures in business aren’t new in our society. However, adapting to changes within can be a challenge through nuances every day.” We thank you for your contribution. And finally here, we have a comment again from LinkedIn. We don’t have a name. “You learn fairly quickly that empathy in leadership is not mandatory. It’s a choice. What is great about Bill and Eddie’s approach to leadership is the courage they promote to address the uncomfortable aspects of leadership and use empathy, not just compassion.” That’s Chivas. So thank you for typing your name in there for Chivas. We appreciate that. Good. So I want to separate those two and what makes that important. But before I do that, I want to take a moment to step away and highlight the sponsor of the Keep Leading podcast.

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All right, Bill. Well, let’s get back to what we were talking about here and this other comment from Chivas. The point that he separates here is there’s a difference between empathy and compassion. What do you feel about that?

Bill:
Well, first of all, I want to say that Sheamus is actually one of our students in the BAOMA. So thank you so much Sheamus for being here. What I would like to say is that, you know, when you use empathy, you put yourself in someone else’s shoes, right? You understand their situation. And of course, you’re all working together as one as a team, you know, but you understand where that person’s at. When you have good EQ, for example, you have social awareness, self-awareness, you understand relationship management, you even self-manage yourself. So you make those adjustments when you’re working with people. And when it comes to compassion, you know, to have some degree of feeling, you know, to their situation because we’re all human, we’re all authentic, we’re all genuine and sometimes life can get in the way, life happens. Sometimes Murphy’s law, what we don’t expect, what’s possible to go wrong sometimes does. Okay, so what we want to do is be aware of, you know, how like I said earlier, people are mirroring our response. They’re understanding that one-on-one coaching session, that five minutes, that pick me up, that whole positive thing. So when I look at the compassion, you know, balance all that and understand that I see you, you know, I understand this situation. Let me give you some suggestions, that kind of thing. And that’s kind of how I move forward with all of that. You know, you’re engaged, you keep people in your line of sight, you understand them and you respond to them. So….

Eddie:
And Sheamus, I hope that that answers your question.

Eddie:
Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I just he made that statement and I just thought it was important to underscore that and highlight that. So we appreciate you on that, Chivas. Well, Bill, you’ve written a book and in your book that you co-authored here, you cover a lot of ground. Tell us about the importance of staying engaged and why it’s essential.

Bill:
Well, you definitely want to stay engaged, right? You want to be in the game. You want to—and when I say game, just a metaphor, I guess, whatever you want. The dynamic, right? The processes, characteristics. You want to lead with EQ so that you understand your purpose, you understand the organizational goals, you understand your people. You know, I like to use situational leadership. I’m pretty flexible and adaptive, but I can see does this one need a little coaching? Does this one need just an uplift and to be left alone? Does this employee team member maybe need a pat on the back? Does this one need some encouragement? You know, it’s not hard when you go out there and you’re engaged to share your wisdom, to share something maybe that’s the right answer. I mean, we’re all in this together and getting back to what I said earlier, lead, lift, equipped others for success, you know, inspire them, but nurture them. So when you’re engaged, you’re also nurturing and you’re also leading. You know, you’re moving people toward the goal, you know. Dr. Gary Packard says here at UAGC, I love this and I’ve watched him speak many times to all of us and he says fly safe, fly smart, fly legal, right? And meaning do the right things ethically and legally. And also, you know, fly safe, fly right, operate right, right? That’s an operations. We’ve got a systems approach, right? We’re looking at things, but it’s also about people. And that’s why Eddie, you and the board and everybody advised us, hey, get a leadership course in there, which we did. So we focused on leadership and motivation, which is in the curriculum with Dr. Patricia Ryan, who oversees our leadership side, which is a great course. And, you know, so when you put all that together in an operations thing, you know, you grow, you grow and you start to thrive and you build here and hopefully you see my confidence, you know. I mean, Dr. Rosabeth Moss Kanter, I’ve read all her books on leading change and that, but she would always say that in her book Confidence where she researched all these companies, she says, “Confidence is the sweet spot between arrogance and despair.” And so when you’re in the middle and you understand, don’t let your ego take over and don’t get over here, but be fair, be consistent, keep operating and, you know, stay engaged. It’s essential. That actually came from Marty McAuliffe who Dr. Marty McAuliffe is my good friend and he authored this book with me and Dr. Charlie Minnick. But the nice thing about the chapters in this book, they’re pretty practical things, right? On how to.

Eddie:
They are practical. I enjoy reading it. Practical to the point….

Eddie:
Well, let me mention one last comment here, Bill. We have from a young lady here or says, “Sorry my name does not appear for the comment that I’ve added. Well said, Bill. Awareness and authenticity are your hallmarks. Leadership on down. Flori S.”

Bill:
Thank you.

Eddie:
So Bill, I appreciate Flori including the comment there and everybody who’s been a part of our conversation to make it a just an active discussion. Really, really nice. We’re grateful. What’s the most important message you’d like to leave our listeners with today, Bill?

Bill:
Well, I’m going to give you one that I’m going to get pretty practical here because I’ve learned from so many people. Dr. Laura Palmer Noon, who was our provost prior, put a flyer out one time. I’ll never forget and it said the three most important characteristics for success. And she said attitude, attitude, attitude. You know, commit and dedicate yourself to something you’re passionate about and you’re purposeful about, live it. Okay, talk the walk, walk the talk. Stay engaged with it. Realize it’s your purpose, it’s what you do. You know, we want to be professional. You know, for example, I have a lot of professional ball player friends like Ron Kittle, Scott Spizio, Moose Skowron, the late Moose Skowron, I knew. But the dedication that those they had for their professional sport was always I admired, right? And I look at people that love their jobs and they’re working. You can feel them. You know, Rebecca Good came in here and talked. If you saw her on some of these Facebook podcasts, you would see someone that’s extremely real and genuine that is dedicated. So dedicate yourself, commit, foster team cohesion and diverse workforces, you know, be inclusive, manage change and just keep addressing the inequities, you know, help people balance. You know, that’s your role is to be a good gatekeeper, be a good overseer and be a good leader.

Eddie:
Excellent. Well, Bill, thank you so much. It’s been an honor to have you on the show. It’s an honor to serve with you, work with you on the board. Keep leading. Keep doing the great work you’re doing for the students there in the organization at the University of Arizona’s Global Campus.

Bill:
Well, listen, thank you so much for having me and hopefully added a little value. Everybody will take a little something from this that they want. So thank you everybody for being here and thank you, Eddie, for this wonderful podcast.

Eddie:
Thank you, Bill. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of Keep Leading Live. I’m Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our title or our position. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

The post Keep Leading!® Podcast 156 | Bill Davis | Leading With Purpose and Empathy appeared first on Eddie Turner.

Heart of Innovation

Episode Summary

Discover the secrets to leak-proof leadership in this Keep Leading!® podcast episode during my interview with Jayshree Seth, an acclaimed thought leader shaping the future of science and engineering as a Corporate Scientist and Chief Science Advocate at 3M.

Jayshree shared insights on how leaders can navigate today’s challenges by embracing a holistic approach to leadership that integrates vision, values, strategy, and dynamic engagement with people and processes. Listen to uncover the essential tools and strategies for fostering innovation and achieving sustainable organizational success.

Keep Leading!® Live

60 Second Videos

About Jayshree Seth
Jayshree Seth, a Corporate Scientist at 3M, holds 80 patents and joined the company in 1993 after earning her PhD in Chemical Engineering from Clarkson University. In 2018, she became 3M’s first Chief Science Advocate, promoting science and the importance of diversity in STEM to foster innovation. She is a globally recognized speaker and thought leader, featured in media across the globe and received several prestigious awards, including the Society of Women Engineers’ Highest Achievement Award in 2020 and the 2021 Gold Stevie® Award for Female Thought Leaders of the Year.

Jayshree is a TEDx speaker and author of two books, with sales proceeds funding scholarships for underrepresented minority women in STEM. She is completing a trilogy with her third book, “Engineering Blueprint.” Jayshree serves on several boards and advisory councils, including the Science Museum of Minnesota, Clarkson University’s Engineering Advisory Council, the AAAS Industry Advisory Council, and the Aspen Institute’s “Our Future is Science” program. She has two adult children, and her husband also works at 3M.

Website
https://youtu.be/IltRfvUx6u8?si=hs-Jr4JpOq4MypxP

Other Website
https://youtu.be/00OXFWU28tA?si=S1C8El1aBLj_-dJV

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayshree-seth-6287b45/

Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/sethjayshree/

Jayshree Seth’s Book
https://amzn.to/40sYH0N

Leadership Quote
“Now more than ever before in our lifetime, innovation is a lifesaver for business, inspiration is the lifeblood of innovation, and purpose is the lifeline for inspiration.” – Jayshree Seth

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About the Keep Leading!® Podcast
The Keep Leading!® podcast is for people passionate about leadership. It is dedicated to leadership development and insights. Join your host, Eddie Turner, The Leadership Excelerator®, as he speaks with accomplished leaders and people of influence across the globe about their journeys to leadership excellence. Listen as they share leadership strategies, techniques, and insights.

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Transcript

Eddie Turner:
Hello and welcome to another episode of Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live, like the Keep Leading podcast, is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation, and professional keynote speeches.

If you are joining me and my guest today on the three platforms that we’re broadcasting from—LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube—let us know that you’re here. Go ahead and drop a comment in the comment section to say hello, ask a question of myself or my guest, and we will be happy to answer your questions. Hit that share button and your colleagues can watch the recording later on in their social media feed.

Now, I am excited to have my guest today. I’ve had a lot of impressive people on the Keep Leading podcast. And I’ve had some scientists and some engineers and inventors, but this is my first female scientist, engineer, and inventor. Others have had patents, but this is the first one to have 80 patents. So I’m really excited to have a woman who is an acclaimed thought leader—I’m so excited, I’m getting tongue twisted. She’s an acclaimed thought leader who is shaping the future of science and engineering as a corporate scientist and chief science advocate at 3M.

My guest today is going to talk to us about the heart of innovation. It is Jayshree Seth. Jayshree is, as I mentioned, a person who holds 80 patents. She’s the corporate scientist and chief science advocate, promoting STEM and fostering innovation at 3M. She has been featured in media all over the globe, a prodigious writer, author, speaker, and she’s received numerous awards for her work. She also has a TED talk that you may want to check out, and she’s the author of three books, which we will discuss as well.

Jayshree, I’m excited to have you here. Welcome.

Jayshree Seth:
Thank you. Thank you for having me, Eddie. I’m excited to be here.

Eddie Turner:
What an honor. Jayshree, tell my audience what I may have missed about you and your amazing background.

Jayshree Seth:
Ah. You didn’t miss a lot, so that’s good. I should mention that when people hear things like chief science advocate and scientist and engineer and inventor, I want to also emphasize the fact that I actually started out thinking that I was not the science type. But I grew up on the campus of an engineering institution. My dad was an engineering professor, and all of us, all kids, were encouraged to get into engineering. And I remember thinking, am I really cut out for that? Because I had the stereotypical image of what those people did and that wasn’t what I wanted to do. I wanted to help people and improve lives and make the world a better place, and I couldn’t see that connection.

But long story short, I did get into engineering and then I did get a summer internship at 3M and that turned into a full-time position and there I was. And that’s when I realized you can help people. You can make the world a better place. You can be inventive, you can be creative. And I want to mention that because I started out not the science type and became the chief science advocate. So strange things like this can happen.

And it is important to understand that I’m the first ever chief science advocate because this role was instituted at 3M when we did a survey to understand the public’s perception of science and the public didn’t really appreciate that the gadgets and devices that they so love, those come from science and the applications thereof. So we wanted to really advocate for science because that is what drives innovation. So I’m excited to be in this role since 2018 and, uh, over 31 years at 3M.

Eddie Turner:
Outstanding. Over 31 years at 3M. Now, that in itself is an accomplishment because most organizations don’t let people stay around that long. So that says a lot about you and about what the value you’re bringing to the organization and it says something about how you feel about the organization you’re working for to even want to stay. So you went from your internship and, uh, 31 years later, you’re still there. Congratulations.

Jayshree Seth:
Thank you.

Eddie Turner:
Now, when we talk about when you talk about not being the science type, that’s where my mind went. My when I met you and started learning about you, because I might hear the word science and, uh, my mind harkens back to all the failed exams and I just didn’t do well in that space. Some areas of that space, on the technology side, I was a little bit better. But yeah, so a lot of people, it’s a—they have to learn how to become that. And for you, you not only became the science type, but your journey has led you to some outstanding work. I mentioned your 80 patents. Can you just give us a high-level view about some of those accomplishments that you have and how they’ve benefited not just 3M, but humanity overall?

Jayshree Seth:
Yeah, so, um, my first project was on, uh, keeping diapers on wiggly babies and it was, uh, pressure sensitive adhesive, sticky tape to keep those diapers on. I had actually never seen a diaper before. I grew up in India and at that time there were no plastic diapers to be seen there. But I did realize that this is a very important invention if there ever was any. And just trying to understand what the end user, which is the baby that can’t tell us anything about the diaper, how do you design for that? So I had this sort of problem solving head that I put on to everything and knowing well that I probably don’t know the area. So because I don’t know the area, I have to develop this rich context about it. And once you have the context, you can understand the content better and then you can come up with concepts.

And so this is what I have done repeatedly in several areas at 3M. So it’s like working in a new area all the time and the excitement of learning about something different and solving problems, collaborating with others to work on them and to launch innovative products. That has really kept me going for 31 years because there’s so many problems to solve and there’s lots of people who can solve problems and few who can identify the problems to solve. So I love doing both of those and it’s been a great journey in a culture of empowerment with an emphasis on collaboration and really a communal context of improving lives. Our brand promise is that our purpose talks about that.

Eddie Turner:
Fascinating. And as a new father who’s changed a lot of diapers over the last four years, I am grateful to you. One other aspect I want to ask you about on that is chief science advocate. Who else has that title in the industry?

Jayshree Seth:
No one. I mean, we looked. There is no one with that title. In fact, this title was covered in the New York Times during the COVID era. And it basically came about because we wanted to understand what the public thinks about science. And, you know, science is central to what we do. It is what drives our innovation. So this is about late 2017 that a survey is done, 14 countries, thousand respondents per country to understand what the public thinks. And when the results came back, it was like, whoa, people said, if science didn’t exist, their lives would be no different. Four out of 10 said that. It was really shocking. But when you dig deeper, you find out that they were taking the survey on their laptops and mobile phones. It’s very clear that science is invisible, it is taken for granted, it is under appreciated. And that’s why we need to advocate for science because we all do understand that we need science to solve a lot of problems.

And this was 2018 when my role was created and we decided to advocate for science. A, about raising the appreciation and awareness and acknowledgement of science in our daily lives. B, about breaking down biases and barriers and boundaries that people see, oh, I’m a girl, I can’t do science or, uh, left brain, right brain or, uh, I’m not a genius, things like that. And then C was about communication, communication, communication with a context that people can see and appreciate. And the reason for all of this was to make people aware how important science is, the role it can play and to attract a whole bunch of people to foster this love for science in the next generation. And then of course, the pandemic happened and people did recognize the importance of science and what it can deliver. So that kind of worked out in a way.

Eddie Turner:
Yes, so you are really, uh, a beacon in your organization, but also someone for people, but especially young women all over the world to look up to and see that they can become, uh, a person who actually practices science and can be innovative and transform lives in the world like you. So we’re very grateful to you, Jayshree.

Now, when it comes to doing just that, your innovation, you talk about the heart of innovation and what that means to organizations. Tell us a little bit more about that.

Jayshree Seth:
Yeah, you know, I’ve been at 3M for 31 years all in innovation, you know, R&D, technology and product development and I have interacted with many different organizations internally and externally, many leaders, you know, I’ve read, I’ve observed, I’ve researched, I’ve experienced. I have peers in other companies. I have lots of mentees internally, externally. And especially through some interesting years given the pandemic and everything that has followed, I keep thinking about what is at the heart of innovation. And again and again the answer is leadership. And leadership is somewhat of an amorphous concept, which you know well as you teach and train and coach leaders. Everyone understands it, but when the word is just thrown around loosely and, you know, people are pulled into so-called leadership positions or when we conflate privilege with performance or a leader really lacks a specific element that is so important in that role, it becomes clear that we need to move from principles to highlighting some very tangible things that people need to have for the kind of leadership that is needed.

And given my unique vantage point of observing it from the trenches and seeing what is it, the kind of leaders that can drive innovation and inspire the next generation of leaders, I wanted to pull something together and I call it leak proof leadership.

Eddie Turner:
Leak proof leadership.

Jayshree Seth:
Yes, so that you have these critical elements, otherwise they will be leak through the gaps in your leadership back. And so let me just rattle off what I think are the important elements. And you will all recognize that when you see somebody who’s engaged, somebody who’s active and somebody who’s knowledgeable, how inspirational that is to drive innovation.

So the first thing is lead. You have to lead with vision, values and strategy. You have to engage with process, people and culture. You have to action, listening, learning and communicating and you have to have the knowledge of content, context and purpose. So those are my 12 gems. And the reason why all of them are there is as you can appreciate, people may have vision, but it’s not aligned with values or they don’t have the strategy on how to make it happen. People may be heavily engaged with process. But what about the people and the culture? Because that is what will help uphold that process. People communicate, but are they listening and learning? And knowledge of content, great, but what about the context in which innovation happens? And what about the purpose that drives the people to be inspired to deliver that? And that’s why it’s L E A K—lead, engage, action and knowledge—and those are the elements. And the good leaders, they recognize the values of all of these and I’ve seen that in action.

Eddie Turner:
Well, thank you for sharing that framework. Is there one step in that framework or one component that’s more important than any others?

Jayshree Seth:
I think they’re all extremely important and the way I look at them is if you’ve got one and you’re working on another and you’re assembling a team that helps you with the third one, great. But you have to have all because you can’t lead with just vision. You need to have values and strategy. You can’t just engage with process. You need to understand people and culture. So all the dimensions are important, but it doesn’t mean that you have to be the expert or the leader or the only person. You can, if you’re a good leader, assemble a team which allows you to reflect on what you may be lacking and have complimentary people to make sure all the dimensions are there so the threads that are weaving across the tapestry of your leadership can stitch together the fabric of that organization and so you don’t have any of these gaps. And I think it’s an important framework. I write a lot about this in my books also.

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. And I really appreciate how you highlighted that because it is really, really true that leadership is at the heart of innovation, both from an institutional perspective in that you need leaders to understand and you hire brilliant people like you and allow you to innovate, give you the freedom, give you the resources. And in so many cases, individuals report having their innovative spirit stifled, uh, because people are afraid of change. So it’s both from an institutional standpoint, but also from a self-leadership perspective in that people understand need to get out of their rut, don’t be complacent and be willing to explore as you did. And I love the fact that even when you came from an area of the world where this item did not exist, you still said, how can I, as would say, have the growth mindset and the mindset of a child, ask these inquisitive questions to get to that point. Phenomenal. So thank you for sharing that.

Jayshree Seth:
Thank you.

Eddie Turner:
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Now, Jayshree, I want to go back to the point that you made about your books. You’ve written three books in fact, and your books are something pretty special. Tell us about your books.

Jayshree Seth:
Yeah, so the idea of the books came up in 2020, you know, it was a tough year to say the least with the pandemic and the social justice, uh, uprising and, uh, I’m in St. Paul, Minnesota. And we all know what happened in, uh, over the Memorial Day weekend, you know, right in our backyard in Minneapolis and it really gave me the opportunity to reflect and think about my role in all of this, you know, I’m not black, I’m not white, but I’m a highly privileged, uh, South Asian immigrant. Um, and, uh, education is a privilege and the ability to contribute in a productive way, that’s a privilege that I hold. And I was like, what can I do to improve this situation? Uh, and, and why have I not been aware of the systemic issues that are pervasive? And so I read everything that was suggested and I watched the documentaries and all of this and I went through my sort of cycle of grief, despair and then I wanted to be productive with purpose.

So the idea I had was, why don’t I take the essays that I write and we’ll publish a book and all proceeds will go to a scholarship and the scholarship will be for black, Latin or indigenous women in STEM and, and, and we did this with Society of Women Engineers. Shout out to them. And so the book, uh, first book came out and that’s published with SWE, uh, Society of Women Engineers is called SWE. And then I got the opportunity to give the Silas Ethics lecture at Georgia Tech. And you will not believe this, Eddie, out of the hundreds of schools that the first scholar from the sales proceeds of my first book was going, hundreds of schools they could have been going, they were at Georgia Tech, exactly where I was going to give the Silas Ethics lecture. So I got the opportunity to meet this person and I was like, oh my gosh. It was such an emotional experience because we go through our life thinking, oh, one person can’t make a difference, one person can’t make a difference. And I saw how one person could make a difference. I came up with the idea, others joined in, bought the books and here there was a person who was being impacted by this effort.

So in my flight back, I’m writing a second book. I can’t stop here. So two books and we had five scholars. So the first book, Engineering Footprints, Fingerprints and Imprints, it explores like overarching themes of personal development, leadership and making an impact. Engineering Fine Print, the second book, takes us deeper, encouraging us to examine the fine print within ourselves. So that is feelings, identities, needs and experiences, F I N E. I love acronyms if you haven’t figured that out. But this can be a catalyst for purposeful action and self-realization. Then I started getting a lot of requests for workshops to do based on the frameworks and mental models I have in the first two books and that’s why the third book happened. So in this book, I take insights and strategies including those in the first two books and we put them into practice. So it’s actually a hands-on guide. You have suggested reflections, actions you can take, and essentially you can construct a personalized blueprint for success step by step as you embark on this journey of self-discovery and growth. So that one is called Engineering Blueprint and that’s out now. And it’s got over 40 mental models and frameworks.

And the reason, Eddie, why I did this blueprint was I want everyone to have a joyful, purposeful STEM journey and drive innovation. And I mean developing your skills, nurturing your talent, building your expertise and cultivating your mindset and that’s the real STEM, skills, talent, expertise and mindset and that’s it.

Eddie Turner:
Oh, I see what you did there. That’s a big—that’s a twist on the acronym for STEM.

Jayshree Seth:
That’s the heart of innovation, skills, talent, expertise and mindset. And all the books are available on Amazon. So please buy them, support the books and the cause and it’s not just what you take away from them, it’s also what you give. It’s the gift of education, the best gift you can ever give.

Eddie Turner:
Well, congratulations on being the author of three books and even more so on your purpose and how you’re giving the proceeds to benefit, uh, STEM and you partner with the engineering association that supports STEM. And can you just share for our listeners who may not be aware the power and importance of supporting women in STEM?

Jayshree Seth:
We need all the diversity we can muster for the problems that are ahead of us. We need everybody to take a part in solving these problems creatively, innovatively. So considering the under representation of women in STEM fields, it’s a big challenge. We need to make sure that if you’re 50% of the population, you’re close to that for being represented in STEM fields. So it’s extremely important for the future of innovation to have diversity in STEM and especially women and under represented minorities because that makes a huge difference. So we, in fact at 3M, created this docu series and you can see this behind me. It’s called Not the Science Type and it portrays the journey of four women and it shows that it doesn’t matter what your race, gender, ethnicity is, you know, science needs you and science needs you to be you.

Eddie Turner:
Beautiful. And so many people need to see this to be able to believe it. So I’m excited to see that. So, uh, wonderful to hear that. Another point I want to share is, uh, I want you to highlight for me if you would please because folks may be listening to our conversation and thinking, hey, well listen, I’m not a science person, uh, I’m not very innovative, you know, why should this matter to me if I’m not in engineering? If I’m just in the marketing department or if I’m in the sales department, why should the heart of innovation matter?

Jayshree Seth:
Innovation is the only option. Just look around, just look around and see in every arena, we need innovation. And I’m not just talking product innovation. We need innovative ideas. We need innovative mindset. We need innovative thinking. And that’s why it matters to everybody. We need to find new ways of thinking and being. And with all the challenges ahead of us, it is important that we all consider ourselves innovative and we all practice that muscle to think differently. And that’s important because you can think differently and you can also develop the understanding and patience and the open mindedness when others think differently. But without that, we are going to be in a whole lot of hurt. So this is important to everybody. Innovation is really the key to a sustainable future.

Eddie Turner:
Excellent. Thank you. And I appreciate, uh, joining us from LinkedIn is Ezra Miller, joining us all the way from Turkey. And she says that was a beautiful question. So thank you for your feedback. And I appreciate your answer, Jayshree, because yes, we all must challenge ourselves to think differently. No matter what department of an organization we’re in, we have the ability to think differently, do differently and act differently. So wonderful. Thank you for that advice. You have and thank you Ezra for tuning in and not just listening, but asking, uh, giving us some feedback. We appreciate you.

Jayshree, you’ve had an opportunity to collaborate with some of the biggest thought leaders in the world. You’re a tremendous thought leader in your own right, of course, but you’ve, uh, collaborated with Dr. Amy Edmondson, Dr. Rita McGrath and, uh, Tony Martinetti. These folks have helped you to bring this framework to life. Tell us a little bit about what that’s been like to work with such great people.

Jayshree Seth:
Oh my gosh. It’s been amazing. My thought leadership journey started recently, fairly recently, but I was able to really put together what I observe, what I think should happen, what can happen and create these frameworks. And it was amazing to have the likes of the names you mentioned actually acknowledge. It was validation and I share this not to brag, but to let others know that sometimes we just take our ideas and count them off and really don’t think they are anything important. Not true. So these little frameworks that I’ve created have are so meaningful that Professor Amy Edmondson and I wrote an article together for Fast Company, same with Professor Rita McGrath and these are about topics that are so relevant and so important and it tightly puts them together in a framework. So it’s been an amazing journey and I have to say I am so impressed and thankful and grateful to these people who are so famous and so established and yet they agreed to partner with somebody like me who was bringing all these ideas, uh, you know, from a very science and innovation perspective. So it’s been amazing. Truly amazing and I’m thankful for that.

In fact, I was just telling someone last year it was incredible that I got to, uh, go to the White House. I got to, uh, speak at the Innovation Roundtable. I was invited to speak at the Drucker Forum where I met Professor Amy Edmondson in person for the first time and so I feel blessed in this. So I would say if anybody wants to be a thought leader and really authentically put on paper what they believe can happen, should happen, are improvement opportunities, etc, go for it because that’s been my experience.

Eddie Turner:
Phenomenal. Congratulations. That is simply wonderful.

Jayshree Seth:
Thank you.

Eddie Turner:
Well, I want to welcome into our conversation another, uh, person joining us from LinkedIn, uh, Jessica Adams. Thank you, Miss Jessica Adams for joining us and sharing your reaction to our conversation. Jessica says it matters and that’s, uh, no doubt about the question I asked about innovation being important for everybody. It matters because when seat belts were first developed by teams lacking diverse representation, they were designed with men in mind and initially they caused harm to women and children. Even if we’re not in technology, ensuring diverse perspectives on innovation teams is crucial as it directly impacts the safety and well-being of your family.

Jayshree Seth:
Spot on, spot on, spot on. And I have experienced this in my own journey when I look at a product that we’re developing and the perspective that I bring and the perspective someone else brings and how much it enriches what the final innovation ends up being.

Eddie Turner:
Beautiful. Thank you for, uh, for adding to that and no doubt your work is contributing to making the change. And this is something that we would not necessarily have thought about. So Jessica, really, really appreciate that contribution. And again, I appreciate Ezra’s contribution as well. She joins regularly, so that’s why I know she’s joining us from Turkey. I’m always grateful to see her, but certainly grateful as well here at Jessica.

All right, well, uh, as we reflect on what we’ve been talking about and I could talk to you for another hour, Jayshree, but what is the most important message you would like to leave our listeners with?

Jayshree Seth:
Well, since we are on the Keep Leading podcast, Eddie, I would say now is a great time to take those playbooks and turn them into workbooks and write chapters on leadership and legacy in organizations of allyship and advocacy across the value chain, uh, partnership and primacy of the public and stewardship and diplomacy within the ecosystem. Those are the kinds of things that are truly going to drive innovation. So get the pen and paper ready and write those chapters.

Eddie Turner:
Fantastic. And since this is the Keep Leading podcast, I always ask, what is the quote that you use or the best piece of leadership advice you’ve ever heard that helps you keep leading?

Jayshree Seth:
Can I give my own quote? I know it sounds so bad, but I want to talk about—

Eddie Turner:
No, it does not sound bad. You absolutely, you are a thought leader on 80 patents. I want to hear what you have to say.

Jayshree Seth:
Okay, so I have this emblazoned everywhere including on my link and it basically says, now more than ever before in our lifetime, innovation is a lifesaver for business, inspiration is the lifeblood of innovation and purpose is the lifeline for inspiration. And those are the words that keep me going. We need innovation. It’s the only option. We need inspiration because without that, innovation can’t happen and we need a purpose to drive that inspiration. And I talk about that in my TEDx talk as well and I think it’s so important.

Eddie Turner:
Wonderful. So we’ll remind folks again to look for you on TEDx to be able to hear your TED talk as well as, uh, following you on LinkedIn. Uh, is there any other—oh, let me pause for one second. I just have another comment coming here. Uh, Ezra is commenting again for us, Ezra Miller, we appreciate you. She said reminds me of the standpoint theory when you were talking about including women in innovation. Thank you, Ezra. Any comment on that, Jayshree?

Jayshree Seth:
Yeah, I think it defies logic, uh, the percentage of women that are there in the world and the percentage that are in some of the STEM fields. It just defies logic and it’s just a simple problem of under representation and bias and, uh, the answers don’t have to be complex. We just have to fix it.

Eddie Turner:
We just have to fix it. Where can people learn more about you?

Jayshree Seth:
Um, I’m on LinkedIn a lot. So follow me on LinkedIn. Um, that would be great. And if things resonate, please, uh, comment and share and spread the word. And my books really talk about the entire journey I’ve been through, uh, talks through, you know, anecdotes, leadership experiences and, um, you know, ideas for the future. So please, uh, buy the books. Uh, they’re all on Amazon and don’t forget to give a five star review. It helps us to spread the word. It’s all for a good cause.

Eddie Turner:
Indeed, indeed. Well, it’s been such an honor to have you. Thank you again for being a guest here on the Keep Leading podcast.

Jayshree Seth:
Thank you, Eddie. I appreciate it.

Eddie Turner:
And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of the Keep Leading podcast, Keep Leading Live here on LinkedIn, ladies and gentlemen. I’m Eddie Turner, the leadership accelerator, reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is an activity. Leadership is action. It’s not the case of once a leader, always a leader. It’s not a garment that we can put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you’re doing, always keep leading.

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